Starting Over - I need some advice
 

I normally play 1/2 6-max or 2/4 6-max, but I'm a losing player and I'm leaking big time. It has been getting frustrating working on those bonuses, but still losing anyways. The last two days I moved down to .10/.20 6-max on Absolute, starting the table with $5, and leaving with less. I'm not writing this because I feel sorry for myself. I'm taking a stand and telling myself that I want to start over and do this right. I know variance is a big part of the game, but variance won't do me any good if I lose more than I win.

Bankroll does not matter, but let's say I have $500 and I don't want to have to reroll if I don't have to (being conservative).

My questions are:

1. Which limit (6-max) should I play to be able to survive a big downswing while getting the most out of my play?

2. What should I concentrate on the most, i.e., hand reading, preflop play, postflop play, pot odds? Or at least, what are the most important parts of +EV play?

3. What do I need to be thinking about during play, i.e., player's tendencies, HUD stats compared to their plays, blind stealing, blind defense...etc?

4. What should I NOT be worried about, i.e., short-term results...etc?

5. What should I do to study the game, i.e., continue playing as much as possible, review hand histories, respond on the forum to other player's hands, post my hands, read books?

I probably seem like a pest to most of you, but it is time to get as serious as I can about this game because I want to be successful ASAP in the right amount of time.

Here are some stats on my play right now (although very short-term):

Total $ Won: (310.35)
Total Hands: 8,890
Hours: 108.80
BB/Hr.: (1.38)
BB/100: (1.69)
VP$IP: 18.41

I know most of you can't stand posts like this, but I'm just asking for help. It's time to do things right.

And honestly, for the player(s) who help me out the most to turn my game around, I am willing to reward you for your time. I'm a man of my word. I'm not asking for a coach, but merely, someone to guide me in the right direction.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

500 bucks, go to party 0.5/1 6max.

work on your preflop play mainly at first. go on a mission to figure out why your vpip is 18 and around here 25 is the norm.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

I've noticed you being quite active in the forum, and I'm glad you're struggling to get better. One other thing that I've noticed is that the number of your hand posts (or replies to others in your own posts) is very large compared to the number of your replies to the posts of others. I and many veterans here will tell you that it's usually more beneficial to type out responses to the posts of others than it is to post your hands. This is because when you respond to a hand, you're forced to work out on your own the proper action to the best of your ability rather than getting spoonfed the answer by the forum. If you explain yourself thoroughly, even if you get it wrong, people get to correct the reasoning behind your proposed action, which is really what you want. Here's a much longer post I made on the subject. It also contains a list of what, IMO, are the most important concepts for you to be focusing on. If you're sure to write about how you think the do (or don't) apply in your responses, you'll go far.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

First thing that stands out is the Vp$IP stat that you have, you should be aiming for 23 - 25% on the 6 max tables. I would agree with miles to hit the party tabels with the $500 that you have.

Start right from the basics with your preflop play and getting all basics i.e pot odds, cleaning up your outs and get them to a high level.

Best way to learn i think are all the online internet forums like this one and the numerious others, there are alot of very good players which are willing to share their welth of knowlage.


WelshChip

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

I use this Preflop chart, good/bad/anything better?

Preflop Starting Hands Chart

I modified it so it's a little easier to read for me along with my table up at the same time, but it's the same nonetheless.

I will begin my new adventure by sticking to this stictly.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

Italian,

have you read abdul's preflop strategy guide? rather than follow a chart exactly, think about why you are deciding to play KTo in some situations and not others. or against which players and tables you can 3bet KQs, etc...

know what I mean? you're not going to actually learn much from following a chart (though if you don't have the basics down it's definitely very helpful)

just my .02

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Italian,

have you read abdul's preflop strategy guide? rather than follow a chart exactly, think about why you are deciding to play KTo in some situations and not others. or against which players and tables you can 3bet KQs, etc...

know what I mean? you're not going to actually learn much from following a chart (though if you don't have the basics down it's definitely very helpful)

just my .02

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi jba

I agree with your sentiment here, but it seems Italian needs some structure and work on basics before he can delve into stuff like abdul's writings. That's why the chart he linked to would be a great thing to follow. Nothing wrong with memorizing a chart and then, once you have it down pat, start to think about why you are doing what you're doing. That's how I did it, anyway [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Btw that chart is pretty solid.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Italian,

have you read abdul's preflop strategy guide? rather than follow a chart exactly, think about why you are deciding to play KTo in some situations and not others. or against which players and tables you can 3bet KQs, etc...

know what I mean? you're not going to actually learn much from following a chart (though if you don't have the basics down it's definitely very helpful)

just my .02

[/ QUOTE ]

Never heard of that page until just now. I found it and will read it in a few minutes. Thanks.

And just for future reference: Abdul's Short Table Strategy

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Italian,

have you read abdul's preflop strategy guide? rather than follow a chart exactly, think about why you are deciding to play KTo in some situations and not others. or against which players and tables you can 3bet KQs, etc...

know what I mean? you're not going to actually learn much from following a chart (though if you don't have the basics down it's definitely very helpful)

just my .02

[/ QUOTE ]

Never heard of that page until just now. I found it and will read it in a few minutes. Thanks.

And just for future reference: Abdul's Short Table Strategy

[/ QUOTE ]


actually I was talking about this, but everything this guy has written is worth reading IMO

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

MrWookie:

Great post. I read it and I am reading the inner-directed threads. Great information!

I will work on that 5/day challenge, but what I like to do is: open a new thread, and click on reply. That gives me a blank screen with the original hand below without the other responses. I then like to take each street separately and play it through individually. A few of my posts, which isn't worth searching for, you'll see that I did just that.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Italian,

have you read abdul's preflop strategy guide? rather than follow a chart exactly, think about why you are deciding to play KTo in some situations and not others. or against which players and tables you can 3bet KQs, etc...

know what I mean? you're not going to actually learn much from following a chart (though if you don't have the basics down it's definitely very helpful)

just my .02

[/ QUOTE ]

Never heard of that page until just now. I found it and will read it in a few minutes. Thanks.

And just for future reference: Abdul's Short Table Strategy

[/ QUOTE ]


actually I was talking about this, but everything this guy has written is worth reading IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

Even better. Well, I guess I pulled out something else that is useful.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
work on your preflop play mainly at first. go on a mission to figure out why your vpip is 18 and around here 25 is the norm.

[/ QUOTE ]
No! No! No! This is very bad advice.

Continue to play tight and work hard on your postflop play. Once your postflop play is solid and you are confident in it you can slowly start adding hands preflop. Playing tightly will not have any serious impact on your chances of being a winning player at 0.5/1. Most of your profits at that level are made by using strong starting hands to flop good hands and pulverize clueless opponents.

Postflop skills are where the money is. The only really important thing about preflop is don't completely screw it up. Any reasonable preflop strategy will work pretty decently.

The big advantage of playing tight is the hands between 18% and 25% are only marginally profitable for me. For OP they will be a constant source of losses because he doesn't have the postflop skills needed to make them profitable. They will also drive his variance up and it sounds like he needs some peace right now.

In summary let me say that in the bigger scheme of things it doesn't matter whether you open KJo UTG 6-handed or steal from the cutoff with JTo. It never did and it never will. Things like knowing how to value bet the river and when to get away from trap flops are what the game is all about. Not preflop nuances.

BTW, Mr. Wookie is dead right. I started this game two years ago literally not knowing the rules. I don't analyze other people's hands for their benefit. Doing the analysis myself has taught me almost everything I know about poker.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

Thanks guys for everything. I have been reading a lot, but so much that it's way late and I need to get some sleep so I can do it again.

I'm going to be starting a police academy on Monday (Jan. 9th) so most of my day will be committed to that, but when I am not busy with that or other personal things, I will be studying again, more and more.

Please keep the advice coming. It is really helping out a ton!

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

I'm in the same boat with you ItalianFX.

I guess I'll follow the same advice that they are giving you.

Good luck!

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi jba

I agree with your sentiment here, but it seems Italian needs some structure and work on basics before he can delve into stuff like abdul's writings. That's why the chart he linked to would be a great thing to follow. Nothing wrong with memorizing a chart and then, once you have it down pat, start to think about why you are doing what you're doing. That's how I did it, anyway

Btw that chart is pretty solid.


[/ QUOTE ]

Italian, don't take this the wrong way, but if you are using a chart to play pf, and you are still unaware of when raising a hand like QJo or KTo can be correct despite what a chart tells you, maybe you should not be playing 2/4 6max.

I would play .5/1 6max at Party, from what I hear that is super easy.

I have read your posts, and tried to respond to your hands, I think you are a decent player and it's good you are trying to improve and you are taking the right steps, but I would take a step back from 2/4 for a short time.

Hope that helps.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi jba

I agree with your sentiment here, but it seems Italian needs some structure and work on basics before he can delve into stuff like abdul's writings. That's why the chart he linked to would be a great thing to follow. Nothing wrong with memorizing a chart and then, once you have it down pat, start to think about why you are doing what you're doing. That's how I did it, anyway

Btw that chart is pretty solid.


[/ QUOTE ]

Italian, don't take this the wrong way, but if you are using a chart to play pf, and you are still unaware of when raising a hand like QJo or KTo can be correct despite what a chart tells you, maybe you should not be playing 2/4 6max.

I would play .5/1 6max at Party, from what I hear that is super easy.

I have read your posts, and tried to respond to your hands, I think you are a decent player and it's good you are trying to improve and you are taking the right steps, but I would take a step back from 2/4 for a short time.

Hope that helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely am steping away from 2/4. The BIGGEST reason I was playing there was because the bonuses I was trying to clear. It's tough playing smaller limits when you have to have a certain amount to the rake. Empire is pretty easy to clear and the games are pretty soft.

All-in-all, the variance swings are making my heart suffer because I'm trying to gain a bankroll, not lose it. I am too results oriented thinking that 100$ is a good day, when I should be thinking in BB, not $$.

I started a new database on Pokertracker and so far I am doing well. I played 1/2 on Empire because I am finishing up the last 30% of my bonus and I think it's ok to do that on Empire for the time being. I'm probably going to give up on the Absolute bonus, that is alot harder to clear. I'm not down much on that site so it's not that big of a hurt to walk away before it gets worse.

Whatever I lost now, so be it. Studying the game, improving myself, will gain all of that back eventually.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you are using a chart to play pf, and you are still unaware of when raising a hand like QJo or KTo can be correct despite what a chart tells you, maybe you should not be playing 2/4 6max.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate as far as QJo and KTo being correct despite the chart?

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate as far as QJo and KTo being correct despite the chart?


[/ QUOTE ]

it's been a while since I looked at the charts but, I would assume it says you should not play KTo with 1 limper when you are in mp1. Now, lets say the utg limper is 65/3/.7. I am rasing this and trying to isolate teh bad limper.

A lot of pf plays are situational, so only using a chart will mean you miss out on some +ev spots. But, it's not a bad place to start.

The important question to ask yourself, is why should I raise pf, or just limp behind 3 other limpers. Don't do it just b/c teh chart says to, once you understand why you are doing it, the game gets easier.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you are using a chart to play pf, and you are still unaware of when raising a hand like QJo or KTo can be correct despite what a chart tells you, maybe you should not be playing 2/4 6max.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate as far as QJo and KTo being correct despite the chart?

[/ QUOTE ]

here's what I and and I think others were talking about

two situations:

you are in the hijack and the co, button, sb, and bb are all very loose, like 40-50 VPIP. maybe a couple of them are aggressive as well. I'm folding this, because KTo is decent hand but it plays best in heads up situations, and playing it multiway in a raised pot in bad position is a money burner. But give me QTo in the hijack against weak tight players and I'll raise it all day.

I think the point is to look at the relative strengths and weaknesses of a hand, realize that in some situations a hand can be a winner but if you change one or two things about the table conditions it's a big loser. Understanding these things can go a long way in improving your game.

I think StellarWind nailed the thread though. It's postflop mistakes that will tear up your earn, and I don't think there's anything wrong with an 18 VPIP if you're finding yourself lost and out of position a lot postflop, the rake is high (cutting into your WR on marginal hands), and your opponents are unobservant.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

Were you playing 1/2 and 2/4 6-max on Absolute? Because those games are awful relative to those at Party and Poker Stars.

Also, you're weak-tight. You're not playing enough hands, and your postflop advice is consistently too conservative.

So, my recommendation is to move down to, say, .25/.50 6-max on Stars and play a little looser and more aggressively. If you have a reasonable hand and the pot is heads-up, make sure you're getting to showdown a lot. Stop seeing monsters under the bed and continue getting bets in the pot when you have strong hands. Keep reading hand posts both here and in Mid-High short handed.

Good luck.

Edit, I just read Stellar's post and it is better than mine. While you will eventually need to loosen up, your postflop leaks need immediate addressing.

Out of curiosity, what is your Went to Showdown % in poker tracker?

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

I know it's important to learn 6-max. However, my suggestion to ItalianFX would be: if you are not sure you are a winning player in general, play $0.50/1 full for awhile. Play at least 10,000 hands. Your guide is SSHE, and you can follow it fully. Don't worry about blind steals or defense. Work on the post-flop skills. That's where you can work on counting the outs and the pot odds, and protecting your hands, and the really important small-stakes hold'em skills.

If you are winning there, then come back to 6-max. The game will still be there, and you can work on the pre-flop nuances, and being heads up with marginal hands. Counting outs when you have middle pair on the flop in 6-max is funny because you may have the best hand. Make sure you really know the basics by playing full tables.

Just my alternate .02.

-Tom

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

Tom,

good point. Italian how much full ring experience do you hvae?

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

all,

i am sorry for my bad advice in this thread.

i like tom's suggestion the best. 0.5/1 full ring is probably the best place to learn the fundamentals of postflop play. get a preflop chart, see some flops, and value bet until you die.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, what is your Went to Showdown % in poker tracker?

[/ QUOTE ]

40.83% on 8996 hands and won 51.24%.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, what is your Went to Showdown % in poker tracker?

[/ QUOTE ]

40.83% on 8996 hands and won 51.24%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whaaaaaa?

All I ever see is you folding or recommending a fold. How can this be?

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tom,

good point. Italian how much full ring experience do you hvae?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not exactly sure on the number, but I would say I'm around 4500ish hands played. Fullring was the only thing I played until I was introduced to 6max by a 2+2er. I have been going back and forth, but fullring seems too boring for me on my computer. I can play fullring all night at a casino though.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, what is your Went to Showdown % in poker tracker?

[/ QUOTE ]

40.83% on 8996 hands and won 51.24%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whaaaaaa?

All I ever see is you folding or recommending a fold. How can this be?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree. It's not rare, but you can't say that is all you ever see.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

the point is that a wtsd of 40% is very high. who knows what extra hands you're taking to showdown, but this is almost certainly one of your problems.

but if i've read correctly you've played less than 15k hands of online poker, right? if so, i really really like the idea of playing 0.5/1 full for 10k or so hands, and while there, post any hands you feel are hard/interesting in the microlimit forum.

you're basically starting out in 6-max. the need for selective postflop aggression in this game is a bit difficult to grasp. full ring will teach you the fundamentals in a much more forgiving environment.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
i really really like the idea of playing 0.5/1 full for 10k or so hands, and while there, post any hands you feel are hard/interesting in the microlimit forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to clear my Empire bonus on 6max playing tight/conservative and then I'm going to move to party and take that advice on fullring.

Overall I'm at around 9000 hands played on all levels.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
work on your preflop play mainly at first. go on a mission to figure out why your vpip is 18 and around here 25 is the norm.

[/ QUOTE ]
No! No! No! This is very bad advice.


[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't bad advice for short-handed.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

I think I mentioned this to you before and I'm glad someone else is reiterating. You need to work on your postflop play. The best place to do that is at Full Ring.

I figured the reason you weren't playing full ring was because you would think it was boring. It doesn't surprise me that is what you posted. This is a typical fish mentality(which is why 6 max is so profitable). I think it's important that you quit 6 max for a while(and 2/4 for that matter). Post flop mistakes in short hand will kill your bankroll very quickly. At full ring this happens much slower. On top of that there is much more material on how to beat full then on how to beat SH.

If you decide to stay with 6max, your vpip is fine. Like someone said it is only profitable to play +ev hands preflop if you know what you are doing post flop. Otherwise those hands lose money.

As far as your went to showdown stat. It is probably ok too. That stat is derived from your vpip, so If you are playing tighter, then you should be going to showdown more often too. As you open up preflop, your showdown stat will drop.

Re: Starting Over - I need some advice
 

[ QUOTE ]


So, my recommendation is to move down to, say, .25/.50 6-max on Stars

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, stars doesnt have .25/50 6 max, only .5/1. Absolute is the only site below .5/1 6max, so it may be the best place to play. However, it is probably nothing like a "normal" 2/4 games because it may be full of guys capping every street to blow off steam.