How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

I used to play mostly 2/4 - 5/10 limit( 12-14 months ago) before getting into MTTs and later cash games(lots of 600-2000 NL).

I am considering relearning limit(not as my main game, I just think its interesting). How difficult do you think it would be to become profitable at 30/60? 100/200?

Its been a long time since I've read the limit forums/ played limit, just was wondering how games are now/ how tough it is to learn.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

Easy to become decent (if your poker theory is sound which it probably is to beat 2000 NL) and tough to be great. You'd probably catch up to most of the midlimit winning limit players within a month.

-DeathDonkey

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

Within a month? Are you serious...

What 100/200 games are you referring to and where are they that some 5/10 newbie would come crushing tables full of regulars?


Timex,

I dont see why you would re-learn limit, the games are dry - I hear NL is the bomb so why would you ever wanna switch?

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Timex,

I dont see why you would re-learn limit, the games are dry - I hear NL is the bomb so why would you ever wanna switch?

[/ QUOTE ]

Money is over-rated/personal interest.
Also, limit is way cooler than no limit.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

Don't listen to Alex, there's plenty of money to be made playing limit. If you have good poker instincts and a solid foundation then you can probably do ok in mid-limit games right off as long as you have decent game selection.

Plus poo-flinging is much more fun than that NL crap.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

timex you could probably be beating the 30/60 games within a month or two with your knowledge/learning ability. limit is not nearly as hard as nl to become 'good' imo.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you have good poker instincts and a solid foundation then you can probably do ok in mid-limit games right off as long as you have decent game selection.



[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity, how would you define "ok?"

Thanks,
Steve

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Within a month? Are you serious...

What 100/200 games are you referring to and where are they that some 5/10 newbie would come crushing tables full of regulars?


Timex,

I dont see why you would re-learn limit, the games are dry - I hear NL is the bomb so why would you ever wanna switch?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. Such a mischaracterization of what Death Donkey wrote I can see why you didn't quote.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

Rather than looking strictly from a timing perspective, what about various methods for becoming a good/great player.

What tools (e.g. books, mentors, practice, etc.) have you used to become a good/great limit hold'em player? Also, what makes a great limit hold'em player?

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

"Also, what makes a great limit hold'em player? "

winning lots of money?

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

i never really played much limit untill i took a shot at 100/200, and i was a shortterm winner, until i realized i was god awful, and a total luckbox, and there would be lines at the 1/2 games on stars, just for yours truly. SO basically, limit is fun, and anyone can be a short term winner! (by shorttermm i mean like a month, which is about how long i played for) Anyways, the swings at shorthanded are sickening, so be prepared, limit is a sick sick game. And Timex, you obv understand poker Theory..... i would bet you could be a winner at 30/60, in no time, your a smart dude.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

timex you could beat any stake so long as you played with horrible players.

if youre wondering how long before you can just step into any 30-60 game on the net and win, well that could be 2 weeks or never. its also gonna be far less likely that you could ever just step into any random 1/2 game and be a winner.

plenty of ppl do tho, and you wont know until you try.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

LHE is one of the easier poker variants to learn. It is also one of the most prone to relatively simple rote strategies.

(Trust me I am not some prejudiced 70 year old man who only plays 5 card stud. I am speaking from experience.)

I actually sort of resent that Stox and others have made a name for themselves publishing LHE advice, because I believe I could put a near-total LHE strategy in about 5 dense pages that would make you a winner in any reasonably soft game.

However as others have said LHE is really not where it's at these days. Depending on exactly what limits you play there is more value in NLHE and PLO, or if you play live BOT.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

Although no limit hold 'em is inherently more difficult, limit hold 'em is something like three years ahead of it in terms of the evolution of strategy and game quality. I have almost no doubt that under present conditions an elite LHE player would be making more playing NLHE after 60 days training than the other way around.

(This does not describe me, BTW, since I'm too busy/lazy to learn NLHE).

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

very sound pre flop, reasonable game selection and a decent feel for the game and you can be beating most games up to 30/60 online within a month especially if money is fairly irrelevant and you are prepared to lose/splash around. After that beating the higher games is much harder and some people as Victor said just can't adapt enough/arent comfortable enough with the swings to take proper attempts at beating much higher and so never do. Good game to learn and because of the relative simplicity there are a lot of 'ok' mid limit players that make seriously easy games.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

the nl games are much softer both online and live.

people here seem to think it is easier then it actually is to learn to play limit really well. nl is more complex, however, limit is not simple. it will take study and play. i think limit is not growing and nl still is.

online the limit games are have become tougher, while then the nl still; seem very soft. if you play mostly online i think you should stay with nl.

if you live in area where there is a lot of poker and has good game selection (like los angeles) then you should beat the middle limit games for a nice hourly rate in time with some work. i don't know how good your understanding of theory and math are. plus your natural card sense. post flop play in limit is not as easy as others here seem to think.

overall a good player will beat both games. however, the nl offers a higher expectation. i know expert players who enjoy limit more. therefore, they play limit.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

I have been playing limit and no-limit for a long time. I know and believe you should move slowly up the ladder and beat all the games in between for a year each. If you really don't want to wait at least try 150 hours per limit. Ok mid-limit players come to the 100/200 and then back down to lower limits soon enough.
I played ABC then, the light came on about knowing thier bluffing and what to do. The light will come on over and over again about different things you learn and that just will take time. That is why time is critical. Watch the good players.
I like playing heads-up and a few friends told me to play a unknown live player that wanted to play. I didn't because I didn't know him. All my friends told me he was sooo bad. It turned out he was a great player online heads-up. The point is everybody thinks he plays bad and they have not gotten to the level he is at. Great play looks bad sometimes.

Never quit learning!

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing limit and no-limit for a long time. I know and believe you should move slowly up the ladder and beat all the games in between for a year each. If you really don't want to wait at least try 150 hours per limit. Ok mid-limit players come to the 100/200 and then back down to lower limits soon enough.
I played ABC then, the light came on about knowing thier bluffing and what to do. The light will come on over and over again about different things you learn and that just will take time. That is why time is critical. Watch the good players.
I like playing heads-up and a few friends told me to play a unknown live player that wanted to play. I didn't because I didn't know him. All my friends told me he was sooo bad. It turned out he was a great player online heads-up. The point is everybody thinks he plays bad and they have not gotten to the level he is at. Great play looks bad sometimes.

Never quit learning!

[/ QUOTE ]

Your friends were probably judging the guy by full ring, and not short handed standards.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
the nl games are much softer both online and live.

people here seem to think it is easier then it actually is to learn to play limit really well. nl is more complex, however, limit is not simple. .

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I believe the reason for the general perception that limit will be easier is because it relies more on knowledge than talent. Limit is easier for a good student, thus the good limit players are telling people it will be easy. The good NL player may have lots of natural ability but not be a hard working student. Instincts are more important at NL, and that is something a good student may or may not ever have. But he can still do pretty well at limit on book knowledge alone.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

a couple people in this thread are saying beating midlimits quickly is unrealistic. but we should be clear which games we're talking about. the 40 at commerce and the 6-max 30 on stars are not exactly the same league.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

It's not too difficult to become a good limit player. It's very difficult to become a better than average player.

The point is that with the access to information, the overall level of play has gone up considerably.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not too difficult to become a good limit player. It's very difficult to become a better than average player.

[/ QUOTE ]

??? So a good player can be average or worse?

A good player generates a profit. This is not possible unless one is above average.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

My thinking is it would be easier to become very good at limit than no limit because there is a fixed number of decisions.

However, to learn to beat small games I think NL is easier. If you have some sort of tightish and or aggressive strategy and don't do anything too stupid you should win. In limit I think you need to have a better idea of relative hand strength.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking is it would be easier to become very good at limit than no limit because there is a fixed number of decisions.

However, to learn to beat small games I think NL is easier. If you have some sort of tightish and or aggressive strategy and don't do anything too stupid you should win. In limit I think you need to have a better idea of relative hand strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

Up to what size NL game would you suppose this to be true?


Specifically: Do you think learning 2/5 NL would be easier than 15/30 limit?

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

Limit play online is very tough unless your luck to find a rare donkey distributing his money equally at the table.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

I like the way emerson put it... that LHE required knowledge, and thus a 'student' who's been playing for a while will express that "it's easy." Whereas NLHE is more difficult to study, but will come easily to people with good 'instincts'.

Of course like most things, you can't really simplify it this easily. But in my experience I can agree, although I've never thought of it in that exact way. I enjoy LHE because it is a much more linear learning curve, so I feel like I am progressing more consistently. I have played quite a bit of NLHE, and have gotten frustrated because hands rarely get shown down - you have to rely on 'instincts' more than cut-n-dry knowledge. Apparently I don't have only mediocre instincts, and I'm fine with that. My personality is not that of a die-hard poker player anyways (Mike McDermott comes to mind).

I think, to each his own! The differences in the games are why they can sucessfully co-exist.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not too difficult to become a good limit player. It's very difficult to become a better than average player.

[/ QUOTE ]

??? So a good player can be average or worse?

A good player generates a profit. This is not possible unless one is above average.

[/ QUOTE ]

A good player playing 20/40 can make 15-25 dollars/hour. A great player can make 50-60/hour.

Someone told me recently "The best player at the table makes a bb/hour, the second best makes half of that, the third breaks even and everyone else loses."

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

jkam i think your numbers are off.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
jkam i think your numbers are off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which part? Most of the regulars I talk to make around 27/hour. Then there are a few excellent players that make 55ish an hour. And a lot of people that are breakeven at best.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

Yeah are we talking online multitabling? A 20/40 6 max online player is going to make like 300+ per hour with rakeback.

-DeathDonkey

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah are we talking online multitabling? A 20/40 6 max online player is going to make like 300+ per hour with rakeback.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I was referring to live play actually. (and yes, I think whether one pays rake/time/timepots does affect the hourly rate considerably)

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

A good player playing 20/40 can make 15-25 dollars/hour. A great player can make 50-60/hour.

Someone told me recently "The best player at the table makes a bb/hour, the second best makes half of that, the third breaks even and everyone else loses."

[/ QUOTE ]

An expert player earns an average of one BB an hour. That has been my experience playing for over three years. This is discussed in either "Gambling Theory and Other Topics" or "Poker Essays" by Mason Malmuth. I recall his quote about this, it goes something like this "If you stack eight red chips on the table, that's what you will earn per hour if you play 20/40, stack 4 chips, that's expert play at 10/20." That has been my experience on line. I play the live games on Saturday, since I have found the worst players at the largest cardroom, playing over their head, playing too many hands, and going to far with them. I believe this is about the only way I can manipulate my earn rate to be greater. The downside to this is that the terrible players do get lucky. I will know more about this in another year, since I have only been showing up in live games for a few weeks consistently.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

From personal experience, I think the hardest thing about limit poker is to play well on a consistent basis, particularly when you are taking way the worst of it in terms of the distribution of cards. Many good players have mediocre results and many very good players have merely good results because of their inability to either play well or sit out when they are running bad.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Also, what makes a great limit hold'em player? "

winning lots of money?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's being the last monkey to throw poo

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]

A good player playing 20/40 can make 15-25 dollars/hour. A great player can make 50-60/hour.

Someone told me recently "The best player at the table makes a bb/hour, the second best makes half of that, the third breaks even and everyone else loses."

[/ QUOTE ]

An expert player earns an average of one BB an hour. That has been my experience playing for over three years. This is discussed in either "Gambling Theory and Other Topics" or "Poker Essays" by Mason Malmuth. I recall his quote about this, it goes something like this "If you stack eight red chips on the table, that's what you will earn per hour if you play 20/40, stack 4 chips, that's expert play at 10/20." That has been my experience on line. I play the live games on Saturday, since I have found the worst players at the largest cardroom, playing over their head, playing too many hands, and going to far with them. I believe this is about the only way I can manipulate my earn rate to be greater. The downside to this is that the terrible players do get lucky. I will know more about this in another year, since I have only been showing up in live games for a few weeks consistently.

[/ QUOTE ]

The poker essays book is out of date, it was written at a time when 20/40 was among the bigger games available and "expert" players were significantly worse and player pools were much smaller. Expert play at 20-40 should be in the 2-3 BB/hr range, but your not going to see much of that around as most players capable will be playing the larger games.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

note before post: all comments regarding toughness of limits is w/ respect to Stars games, all shorthanded

The biggest adjustment u will prob have to make right away is to the nastiness of LHE variance. It is well known that you are much more handcuffed when it comes to LHE, even SH, and sometimes variance comes in many more forms than just being coolered.

but if your a winning 2k NL player, you should have no problem beating 5-10 right away. 10-20 takes some adjustments, but its mostly just increased aggresion and slightly better play all around. There are still fish there. The same goes for 15-30 for the most part (good 30-60+ players who wont play as low as 10-20 sometiems play the 15-30 games).

As was mentioned before (I think by Ddonkey) poker theory and hand selection is in fact quite important at these midlimits. If you do this well and hand-read/value bet at a good rate (which id imagine someone of your experience is capable of doing) you will be able to beat these games quickly, though prob not for a substantial BB/100.

IMO after this is when it gets tough. 50/100 has beatable games, but the play becomes MUCH more agressive (especially 100/200 +) and hand reading becomes tougher. I still think with good game selection 50/100 is beatable by a good solid agressive player, but the winrate will be small, and getting to the point where u can beat it easily will take hard work.

I dont have a lot of experience past 50/100, mostly because the games jsut get that much harder. The variance is wild and nasty- it becomes easy to get fooled into thinking your a favorite, when your really not. The edges just get a lot smaller in general and its just hard to get comfortable to not only the tougher hand reading, constant adjustments that need to be made, but also to the big money swings. 100/200 SH can yield bad runs that amount to 60k+ especially when you first test yourself in that limit.


basically overall i agree with the consensus. fairly easy (if ur experienced in NL or other forms of poker) to get decent/good, but very hard to get great.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

I missed 30/60 in that post. It's substantially tougher than 15/30, with the occasignal fish or two in them. It really varies because sometimes you will be 4 handed for a while with 2 or 3 fish and the game is great. However, if u play whatever game is running its not always gonna be so sweet. If you play the regulars its much tougher.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

you can't go all in.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The poker essays book is out of date, it was written at a time when 20/40 was among the bigger games available and "expert" players were significantly worse and player pools were much smaller. Expert play at 20-40 should be in the 2-3 BB/hr range, but your not going to see much of that around as most players capable will be playing the larger games.


[/ QUOTE ]

lawl.

3BB/hour is about 10BB/100.

Tables that good do not exist for any extended period of time beyond the play chip level.

Re: How difficult is it to become a good limit player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The poker essays book is out of date, it was written at a time when 20/40 was among the bigger games available and "expert" players were significantly worse and player pools were much smaller. Expert play at 20-40 should be in the 2-3 BB/hr range, but your not going to see much of that around as most players capable will be playing the larger games.


[/ QUOTE ]

lawl.

3BB/hour is about 10BB/100.

Tables that good do not exist for any extended period of time beyond the play chip level.

[/ QUOTE ]

3BB/hr is closer to 8BB/100 than it is to 10BB/100, especially with auto card shufflers. Expert online players pull in 2-3 BB/100, and live players are granted a vast amount more information to use, enjoy a better fish/good player ratio due to a lack of multitabling, and have more time to make their decisions.