Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

First time post, but long time lurker. I hope this is the right forum for this post. clift notes at bottom.

Last Saturday night, I was playing at a local casino, 3/6 limit, with no cap heads up. The table was better than average-lots of calling stations, and I had been running well. The player to the right of me was very drunk, and had lost about 3 racks already, but he was having a good time.

As he kept downing drinks, he started flashing his cards a bit. Nothing on purpose really, just lifting them straight off of the table. Another player has already warned him, as had myself and the dealer.

In this hand, I am on the button with 55. With 4 limps ahead, I limp, and we go to the flop 6 handed. I don't flop a set, and the flop contains 2 clubs. I do have the 5 of clubs. It checks around, and the turn brings another club, at which point the player next to me lifts up his cards as if he was playing a game boy. I am not specifically looking at his cards, but i can clearly see that they are both red. It is checked around again, to the river that brings another club. It checks to me, and i bet, and it folds to the player next to me, who raises. I know he has 2 red cards, so MHIG. I 3 bet, and he 4 bets, when he says, "fold and save your money, ill even show you the Ace."

I figure that i can go another bet or 2 and it'll help out my image-so i 5 bet, he 6 bets, and i 7 bet, and he 8 bets. At this point everyone at the table is getting excited, as these kind of stand downs are not a common occurance.

At this point, if i call, everyone is already going to be like, "wtf, 8 bets with the 5 of clubs?" I have about 20 more big bets in front of me, and he has maybe 16-17. Is it safe to keep raising until he stops w/o looking suspicious?

I'm sure that i saw 2 red cards, and normally, I would call after 4 bets if he hadn't already been warned multiple times.

Clift notes- I have the 5 of clubs on a 4 club board, villian flashes his cards and they are both red, get into a giant raising war on river, how many bets can I go?

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

um, no. The fact that you are going nuts with a 5 high flush stinks of collusion/extra information.

Edit: the only way this can be saved is if the board was paired and you assumed he didn't have a boat, but he did. That would make this golden, and justice would prevail.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

the board wasn't paired, and I ended up just calling. The table kind of gave me a weird look, and a few players questioned it, and the dealer said to him, " you've been warning mutiple times about concealing your cards, and you practically showed me your hand that time."

The table laughed about it, and the dealer even asked me later why I didn't go all the way with it. I wanted to ask here to get some other opinions.

MCP

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

"collusion" and "extra information" are mutually exclusive, and VERY different.

I see NO problem with going the whole way in this situation.

Normally, I side with the "gentleman" side of poker, but in this case, I think you are in your full right to go the whole way without feeling bad about it.

The fact that he was willing to go the whole nine yards without the flush alone justifies your push with the flush, since you could have very esily had a read on him, regardless of the seeing of the actual hand.

Every single card room has a rule pertaining to players protecting their own hands. This directly applies here.

It is further compounded by the fact that the player in question HAS BEEN ADVISED that he is doing it. Once a friendly notice has been given, all pleasantries aside, and go for the juglar. He was given ample opportunity to correct his ways, and now is paying the price for not heeding the multiple warnings given.

You made a mistake by not finishing off the betting. Also, the dealer made a mistake by rewarning the player. It is not his business to do so multiple times. Once is more then enough. Players are responsible for protecting their own hands. Period.

Once he was warned, it was fair game, plain and simple.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

Collusion was a poor word choice. I wouldn't say that are mutually exclusive concepts either since collusion requires extra information. Not worth the debate though.

w/o looking suspicious? no
could you get all in? probably not, but maybe. The guy may have really thought he had an Ace for some reason.

When is the point where you ask if you just want to get it all in during a limit game?

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

not sure exactly when and how you can just go the 'save the time' route and ask if he just wants to get it all-in.

But obviously that strategy wouldn't work against this player if we are assuming he knows he had 2 red cards since he would never call.
But he might have had 2 pair or trips or something and just not noticed there was 4-flush on board.

But if we assume that villain actually knows he is bluffing (or we think there's a decent chance he knows) than the only option OP has to continue with this is to just keep raising and hope the opponent continues on with his bizarre bluff.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

you should feel dirty

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

get your stack in there next time, there is nothing wrong with it since your opponent has decided to share information with you. Welcome to the forum.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

Even on the button, you bet the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] into five players?

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even on the button, you bet the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] into five players?

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP's play obviously sucks, but once its heads up he needs to go to town.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

I doubt this situation will happen to me again, but I'm glad I got some input.

Is the river bet really that horrible? I knew it was questionable when I bet, but the board had the T and Q, and I figured most would have bet the 9, J, K, or A. The pot was small, but against multiple calling stations, i figured that there was a little value in getting called by a pair when my button bet would look like a possible steal.

Thanks for all the quick responses =)

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I 3 bet, and he 4 bets, when he says, "fold and save your money, ill even show you the Ace."

[/ QUOTE ]Once he said this, it's on baby. Get it all in.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

Ahhh yes. Him saying, "I'll show you the ace" implies that he does actually see there is a 4-flush on the board.

Any chance that he has 2-pair and somehow missed the flush was lost when he said this.


As for the play: on the button, with the chance that 1 player will call stupidly with his 2 red cards (or go on a crazy bluff) .....maybe I guess.
T and Q on the board helps the argument.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

to the felt.... It will also help your image because you will look like an idiot

DOUBLE BONUS!!!

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is the river bet really that horrible? I knew it was questionable when I bet, but the board had the T and Q, and I figured most would have bet the 9, J, K, or A. The pot was small, but against multiple calling stations, i figured that there was a little value in getting called by a pair when my button bet would look like a possible steal.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd feel bad about taking advantage of a drunk guy until the "I'll show you the Ace" line... then he gets stacked.

Regarding the river bet: It's not a horrible move. As unlikely as it seems that none of the gazillion players in the hand have a club, nobody has bet, you'll feel like a hero if you get the 6 or 7 to fold, and you can easily fold if you get check-raised. That being said, I probably just check at this point, but I've been known to wear a skirt at the poker table.

I'd have bet the flop and turn, but then I'd miss out on the opportunity to get into a raising war with a raging drunk.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

Gotta love a drunk who thinks a player will go 3 or 4 bets on the river and then FOLD instead of call.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

[ QUOTE ]
get your stack in there next time, there is nothing wrong with it since your opponent has decided to share information with you. Welcome to the forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

One thing to remember is that there's nobody in between you two when it gets back to him and he decides to raise. That makes it significantly less dicey.

-McGee

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

You go 23 bets with 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the initial reaction of most players would be 'WTF?'

But then they would remember the guy had been warned. They wouldn't be mad, maybe a bit jealous that they didn't have the same opportunity. Even if you just 3-bet it and he calls, most players will figure it out. It won't give you a 'wild and crazy' image.

Edit to Add: Different story in a (Limit) Tournament, but there the cap is usually in effect even HU until there are only 2 left in the tourny.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

Once it goes to 8 bets, you might as well go all the way - at this point the table is already gonna know that you saw his cards and/or had an amazing read.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

My first thought was that you go a couple bets on the river and then say something like "remember how we've been telling you that you're exposing your cards?" You don't stop raising, but you let him know that he has a lost cause and let him be the one to stop the river raises. But once he spouted the "I'll even show you the ace" line, I lost interest in being nice.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

This is actually the most interesting live game scenario I've heard in awhile. I was going to say it's a tough one. But the more I think about it, the easier it is to explain away no matter who you talk to about it (and really the only person who can get you in trouble is the floor man, and he will have no trouble at all believing your story.) I'd feel sorry for the guy, but
- he lied and told you he has the ace, game on fellas!
- wtf would think someone would fold to the 8th raise? It's ridiculous.

The more I think about the other replies you've gotten, the more I say "go for it". Even if you feel obliged to explain to the table why you did it (you saw his cards), and even if that makes him stop doing it, this hand alone is probably going to make up for any future money you might lose because he starts protecting his hand.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

After you've gone 8 bets, that is already super-suspicious. You might as well for for all he has left. It will look the same as 8 (after you get 3+ in, you will have to explain yourself) but you get the extra bets.

From an ethical standpoint, it is up to you if he should lose his money for not protecting his cards. At a casino, I would probably go for the jugular since you have not cheated, he has been warned and there are plenty of ppl to take his place when he finally gets up. At a friendly home game, I would probably not go for 20 bets since they might get super pissed and not want to play with me anymore.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

I am suprised that no one has brought up the fact that he is drunk and has an Ace in his hand. It is very possible that he thinks he has the Ac and believes that he is reraising with the nuts.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

If he's so drunk that he can't tell a red card from a black card, then he's destined to lose every dime, anyway. I hate to sound so mercenary about it, but you might as well get that money as the next guy.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

if he tells you he's got the ace, i'd go all the way with it

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

agree with prior posters, you could just bet here, you just used the information presented, nothing wrong.

but if you wanted to finesse it, you could pretend you misread your hand. pretend you thought you had the Ac, or better thought you had a str flush somehow.

later,
illmatic

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

he thinks you're going to fold for an extra bet in minbet ?? take it all

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

i agree with just about everyone else...

i might've said something like, 'you say you have the ace, but i'm gonna keep raising anyway...'

if he kept raising back at me, that's on him for being ridiculous...

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

even if it is slightly unethical (which is arguable) i am doing this just for the story i can tell for the rest of my life. i won't feel bad about it either. the guy is trying to trick us into folding by telling us he has the nut flush. so just raise as many times as possible.

Re: Can i get my whole stack in here w/o looking suspicious?
 

Him telling you he has the ace is a tell.