Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

This is my first post but have been lurking here for awhile. We are about 200 from the money in the PS $3 rebuy. I min raised before the flop (bad I know). After the flop call do I fire again after the turn blank?

Thanks for your help.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button (t53653)
SB (t9515)
BB (t18505)
UTG (t33355)
UTG+1 (t25040)
Hero (t20835)
MP2 (t22263)
MP3 (t33435)
CO (t14040)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls t800, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t1600</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t3200</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t1600.

Flop: (t7550) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t5600</font>, UTG+1 calls t5600.

Turn: (t18750) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

i think its a shove on turn, but maybe u can extract a little more value and bet 1/2-2/3 of pot.

Lets hear more opinions.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

Shove the turn.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

Push the turn.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

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Shove the turn.

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Really? I like checking behind on the turn and calling if he bets on the river; betting for value if he checks.

Not exactly sure what your stack is relative to the pot on the turn, but my vote goes for the pot control line/make the villain make a mistake line.

I feel like if you shove you let him play perfect (I could maybe see him calling a shove w/AJ) in that he calls with his sets/two pair and folds everything else.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

We have half our stack in the pot, are you planning on letting this one go if a scare card hits the river? A push allows you not to play the hand incorrectly. I'm not buying a set/2p here, we're betting strong, I'm sure we would see a R/R if he was that strong. Pushing forces him to make a mistake if he calls to see the river, and I'm fine with winning this pot right now.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

I agree we want to win this pot right now it is big. But despite a big bet on the flop villain still called. And no, I'm not planning on folding the river.

I'd even call a shove from the villain, but at least I have given him an opportunity to make a mistake (bluff or mistakenly value bet the worst hand). If I shove the turn, he plays perfect (except for maybe calling w/AJ).

Giving him a free card here isn't disastrous. The board is semi-coordinated but no flush draws are there. I'm guessing the villain is either already ahead or has ~3 outs. If he misses, he 1) either bluffs the river (or mistakenly value bets) and we call or 2) he will check and we can bet for value.

If he hits (or is already ahead), he'll value bet and we can call and have the potential of not losing our stack.

I think this line decreases the possibility of losing our stack while getting the most possible value out of our hand.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

holdemft is correct in that I have already put half my stack in. I do not think he has a jack since I think he would have raised after the flop. At the time I was worried about him drawing out on me if I checked.

I am wondering whether I have already committed myself and if I did should I have gone all in after the flop.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

My initial thought was to check the turn. On the river, if he bets out, I'd call. If he checks, I'd bet for value.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

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Shove the turn.

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Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

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My initial thought was to check the turn. On the river, if he bets out, I'd call. If he checks, I'd bet for value.

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So if we check and a scary card comes on the river (like an ace) do we still call a bet?

Thanks again for all the reply's.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

I prefer to have a card less than Q. He has been playing pretty passively. If a King or Ace hit and then he bets the river, I'd find a tough fold there. I really think, though, that no matter what card hits the river, he will tell you if you are beat or not. Check = weak, Bet = Strong (only if it's an Ace or King)

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

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My initial thought was to check the turn. On the river, if he bets out, I'd call. If he checks, I'd bet for value.

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So if we check and a scary card comes on the river (like an ace) do we still call a bet?

Thanks again for all the reply's.

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Probably. I might fold to a shove on the river though. But if we are really that risk aversive to people making draws, why play poker? Or if we still wanna play poker, why not only go all-in PF everyhand we wish to play? Obviously because it isn't the most profitable way to play poker.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

Well here's what happened. I was suspicious of the flat call on my flop bet but I didn't want to let him draw out on me. Thought about it for awhile and decided to shove the turn. He calls and flips over a pair of 9's for trips. See ya!!

I was really annoyed at myself because I thought about checking. After an ace came on the river I have convinced myself I could have folded and still been alive. I'm just fooling myself though, because I'm not that good and probably would have called anyway.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

But the difference is, if you checked behind on the turn, he might have bet for value (smaller bet than a shove) on the river. Pot Control.

You told him you have a big hand twice and he is still sticking around. Check the turn. Keep the pot smaller.

Against opponents that are really bad and can't ever fold TP, I could see shoving the turn (because he has QJ, KJ, or AJ a lot and we want him to pay us off). But if your opponent is not the type to call off tons of chips with only TP, you have to check this turn. Pot control.

That being said, he might have moved you in anyway and you could have folded (only b/c the ace hit). But you probably would have had to call with lots of other river cards.

A bit unlucky, but you also let your opponent play perfect on the turn.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

shermn,

This is the 3r, you don't need to do indepth thinking or pot control. In this hand, this should be your thought process.

Preflop - Oh look i have QQ, someone minraises, time to repop them! (personally i really, really, really hate the minraise, but whatever - i didn't play this hand)

Flop - SHIP THE OVERPAIR I NOW HAVE THE NUTS!!! Bet 3/4 pot for value, call if he shoves. Push if he raises anything.

Turn - SHIP A BLANK I STILL HAVE THE NUTS!!! Value bet/shove/whatever my stack dictates. Since we don't even have a potsized bet behind checking behind is sooooooo bad.
PUSHPSUHPSUHPSUHSPHUS

When he calls: YES DOUBLE UP TIME, (he flips 99) FKING COOLER.

*********

anyway, the point is we lost to trips, who cares. Please put him on a RANGE of hands, where checking &gt;&gt;&gt; pushing (also remember this is the 3r, so 88/TT/AJ/JK/33 can even call this push). This is not a spot where you need to worry about pot control, or him playing perfect poker.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

Well, I have never played the 3r so I guess I don't know what the typical opponent is like. But either way, I almost always check this turn unless I know my opponent is the type to go too far with TP. Without a read that my opponent is bad, I don't really think I am shoving this turn.

In my experience, checking turns is a gold mine. Sure every now and then someone makes their draw, but you get more than paid off by value betting the river and picking off bluffs from Villain's who see your turn as weak.

I absolutely agree with your thought process up until the turn (preflop and flop). If he shoved the flop I'd insta-call. But his call on the flop is much scarier than a shove.

You already told your opponents twice that you have a hand and he still hasn't gone away. If you tell him a 3rd time (shove the turn) is he honestly going to call with 33 or 88? Maybe this is more tournament dependent than I think.

BTW - KJ is not in his range. The only worse hand I really see him calling this bet with is AJ and sometimes TT. But like I said, I don't play the 3r.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

I've played the $3r and the flop call can represent any J, any pair, AK, AQ, any part of the str8 draw and a non-zero percentage of entirely random hands that villain is never folding after pre-flop nomatter what the board or action.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

checking the turn is ridic. bad. With this board... in the 3r.
What are trying to accomplish??? seriously....

Easy turn Shove.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

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What are trying to accomplish??? seriously....

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Explained above. You must have missed it.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've played the $3r and the flop call can represent any J, any pair, AK, AQ, any part of the str8 draw and a non-zero percentage of entirely random hands that villain is never folding after pre-flop nomatter what the board or action.

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But which hands will he call a turn shove with that we beat?

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've played the $3r and the flop call can represent any J, any pair, AK, AQ, any part of the str8 draw and a non-zero percentage of entirely random hands that villain is never folding after pre-flop nomatter what the board or action.

[/ QUOTE ]

But which hands will he call a turn shove with that we beat?

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Somewhere between 'all' and 'a substantial majority'.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've played the $3r and the flop call can represent any J, any pair, AK, AQ, any part of the str8 draw and a non-zero percentage of entirely random hands that villain is never folding after pre-flop nomatter what the board or action.

[/ QUOTE ]

But which hands will he call a turn shove with that we beat?

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Somewhere between 'all' and 'a substantial majority'.

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Okay. I give up then.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

maybe im mistaken, but i thought you played low level mtts shermn? If thats the case, you really need to adjust your play based on your opponents - when they mostly suck and think on level one, you don't need to do advanced thinking to outplay them - just betting your hands here will be fine.

Shoving this turn is sooooo standard at most buyins, its not we have 100bb left in a 10bb pot and getting checkraised would suck, WE HAVE A 2/3 POT SIZED BET LEFT WITH AN OVERPAIR VS SOMEONE WHO HASNT SHOWN ANY STRENGTH.

Why wouldn't you push...

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

Thanks for the help. I can see what sherm is saying and I would like to believe that I could have folded after the river card. But since it's a $3r I guess I am going broke either way.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

I do. I guess I just don't know have a good feel for the quality of play in the 3r.

In the first 4 levels of a 4/180 I would also shove the turn. Later on, (usually where the play quality is slightly better) I might consider checking behind. As I said, I give up. Shoving is probably fine. Hijack: Sweating you in the million BTW. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] GL.

Re: Fire again with QQ\'s in 3r?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do. I guess I just don't know have a good feel for the quality of play in the 3r.

In the first 4 levels of a 4/180 I would also shove the turn. Later on, (usually where the play quality is slightly better) I might consider checking behind. As I said, I give up. Shoving is probably fine. Hijack: Sweating you in the million BTW. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] GL.

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I would shove the turn in pretty much all online tournaments i play, we aren't deep enough.

And i run soooo bad at coinflips, the mil is dying [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]