limpers & button
 

I've been wondering about pre-flop play from the button on some of these hands when there are already several limpers at LPP tables. I'm also weaning myself off the hand charts. The hands below are those I would be raising with with less limpers, but they leave me wondering about their EV against many players. So, I am left uncertain whether to raise or just call. Please forgive me if I'm missing the most obvious play--I'm still learning!

(all 9 handed)
--------------------
Hand 1:
Preflop: Hero is button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 limpers, Hero ???.
--------------------
Hand 2:
Preflop: Hero is button with 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero ???.
--------------------
Hand 3:
Preflop: Hero is button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero ???.
--------------------
Hand 4:
Preflop: Hero is button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero ???.



Edit: typo

Re: limpers & button
 

I know there are players who will say to raise all four. Personally, I think hand 3 is the weakest.

Hand 1: I just call, but I've been called a weak-tighty.

Hand 2: This one could be a raise.

Hand 3: It could be because I suck post-flop and can't let go, but I think I just limp this.. The problem is the possibility of domination from a passively played AJ, AQ, or even AK.

Hand 4: Definite raise.

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]

(all 9 handed)
--------------------
Hand 1:
Preflop: Hero is button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 limpers, Hero calls

You need to hit a seven to win this. Calling will bring in many high cards that can make top pair and pay you off. Raising isn't going to make any of them fold. You folding would be a sin against nature.
--------------------
Hand 2:
Preflop: Hero is button with 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero calls

Beautiful. Suited connectors, relatively big. Will win you a lot of money if you hit. Shouldn't raise, can't fold. Folding would be like stealing from orphans.
--------------------
Hand 3:
Preflop: Hero is button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero folds/raises

You could make second-best here a lot of times. If you're going to play, you'd have to raise. Fold might be the best play -- depending on your reads. Calling makes Baby Jesus cry.
--------------------
Hand 4:
Preflop: Hero is button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero calls.

[i]If this was KQs raise. KJs is good and worth a call for its good suited/moderate connected/moderate big card value. Raising is better than folding. Folding is like Keanu Reeves in "A Walk In The Clouds"[i]


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: limpers & button
 

I didn't consider folding any of them. Maybe AT is a raise or fold.

Re: limpers & button
 

Hand 1: Not a great multiway hand unless you flop a set. I like to call.

Hand 2: Suited, connected, biggish. You can go a long way with a hand like this when it hits. Prefer 5 limpers for a raise, so I probably call, but if the table is playing any two, go for it.

Hand 3: Susceptible to domination. You probably want to raise against 4 limpers but calling isn't the end of the world.

Hand 4: Raise.

Re: limpers & button
 

1 - Raise
2 - Raise
3 - I'd consider folding this before raising. I'd probably call.
4 - I'd raise this with any number of limpers

Re: limpers & button
 

i'm gonna post blind. see what others say later.

call
raise.
call
raise.

I might deviate and raise with AT just once in a while.

edit: ppl don't seem to like AT much. Like I said, i usually call. As for pcktprs, I will raise 99 and up here. Occasionally 88. No wonder my PFR is at 8%.

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't consider folding any of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank goodness! I know some people who would.

Re: limpers & button
 

call
call
raise
raise

Re: limpers & button
 

Sevens are a clear raise. Same goes for JTs. I call with ATo. KJs is a clear raise.

Brad

Re: limpers & button
 

Hand 3:
Preflop: Hero is button with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero folds/raises

You could make second-best here a lot of times. If you're going to play, you'd have to raise. Fold might be the best play -- depending on your reads. Calling makes Baby Jesus cry.

Well I was going to goto bed until I read this.... [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

I sometimes like these types of posts more then HH posts since they can show fundimental flaws in ones thinking. You tell someone to raise J9s after 4 limpers and he will do it all day long. But give him T8s or JTs or QTs and he has no idea what to do because he doesn't understand the underlying concepts behind the play.

Anytime you are on the button and have 4 limpers in front of you it is never a raise or fold scenario. There are essentially 4 times when you should raise or fold preflop:

1) You are opening the pot beyond the 1st few positions.

2) You are looking to isolate a bad player (or players) with a weak hand.

3) You are in the SB and are facing an open raise with no coldcallers in the middle.

4) Someone else has raised and it comes to you with no coldcallers.

Why is this not raise or fold?

Anything we do in this spot is for value. If a raise has value, we should probably take it. If a raise doesn't have value, we have to decide if a limp has value (remember a fold is 0 EV). So if ATo has enough value to raise X% of the time (where X is significant), that same hand should never be folded under similar conditions. If you are in a spot where you would sometimes raise (and not raise as a bluff or semibluff) you should call with it those times that you don't raise. The raise doesn't do anything else for us besides build a pot in this case. A raise isn't going to change the dyanmic of the hand in terms of how many people will be taking a flop (or what players will be taking it). If we still had people left behind us it might be a different issue (or if some of the limpers would fold for one more bet), but both calling and raising will produce the same result (other then the pot being 2x as big). So if you feel like your ATo has enough equity to raise 50% of the time, it clearly has enough to call the other 50%. Notice how just calling doesn't put you in a bad spot postflop as compared to raising. If you are outkicked in a limped pot, you are going to be outkicked in a raised pot. That is just poker.

Notice how this is much different then say

UTG limps, UTG+2 limps, Hero has ATo and...?

Now you can make a much better case for a raise/fold.

Brad

Re: limpers & button
 

Raise.
Raise.
Call.
Raise.

Re: limpers & button
 

I usually limp 1 and raise 2, 3 and 4. I might switch it up now and then though.

Re: limpers & button
 

1 - Call/raise.
2 - Easy raise.
3 - Call. I think raising with this is pretty bad.
4 - Easy raise.

Re: limpers & button
 

1,2,4: Raise

3: calling>folding>>>>>>>rais ing.

Re: limpers & button
 

*n00b question*

OK I can understand raising with hand 4. But why 1 and 2 ? We already have position, surely there's no advantage in forcing the blinds to fold, we want as many as possible in this pot don't we ??

*edit* i guess a free card is one reason, but its unlikely with this many limpers surely ?

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK I can understand raising with hand 4. But why 1 and 2 ? We already have position, surely there's no advantage in forcing the blinds to fold, we want as many as possible in this pot don't we ??

*edit* i guess a free card is one reason, but its unlikely with this many limpers surely ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Equity and position.

We DO want as many people as possible in the pot with these hands and we already have them in there. When you raise, it's not to fold anyone, but to get them to put more bets in. With those hands, your equity is clearly high enough that raising has a significant amount of value. We're not trying to force the blinds to fold.

Having position is also a huge benefit. We'll always be able to see the action as it develops. We'll frequently get to take free cards if we need them. The flop is almost always "check to the preflop raiser". We'll be able to take free showdowns if we need to.

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK I can understand raising with hand 4. But why 1 and 2 ? We already have position, surely there's no advantage in forcing the blinds to fold, we want as many as possible in this pot don't we ??

*edit* i guess a free card is one reason, but its unlikely with this many limpers surely ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Equity and position.

We DO want as many people as possible in the pot with these hands and we already have them in there. When you raise, it's not to fold anyone, but to get them to put more bets in. With those hands, your equity is clearly high enough that raising has a significant amount of value. We're not trying to force the blinds to fold.

Having position is also a huge benefit. We'll always be able to see the action as it develops. We'll frequently get to take free cards if we need them. The flop is almost always "check to the preflop raiser". We'll be able to take free showdowns if we need to.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I think I get it.

We are getting very good odds on our investment here, therefore we want to maximise our investment ?

With the added bonus of gaining control and possible free card.

Thanks for explaining.

Re: limpers & button
 

I think 3 is probably the one I would be least happy raising with. The 77 is also thin. Honestly, in these situations it probably doesn't make a huge difference. They all seem very marginal to me. As always, it's really going to matter how well you play after the flop. If these hands will get you into trouble after the flop (like me) you might want to call instead.

Re: limpers & button
 

Raisig 77 and other mid/low pairs has been discussed at length in small stakes in the past. I'm sure a lot of good stuff can be found with the search. I think the reasoning comes down to: you have a slight equity edge, when don't flop a set and there's other action you can easily fold, you can check thru and have another shot at hitting a lot of the time, and when you do hit a set you will be paid off big (partially because it will be unexpected and partially because there will frequently be overcards that your opponents pair and pay you off with).

Re: limpers & button
 

Ya, with 5 limpers you can raise any pair here. 77 is particularly nice in that it can win unimproved as well.

Re: limpers & button
 

So I'm guessing you would raise Axs for value here as well ?

How many limpers do you need in to raise with Axs and pp's ? I'm guessing 3+ ??

Re: limpers & button
 

No, that would depend on the x. 8 or 9 would be a raise because you can sometimes win by pairing your kicker and you can win a kicker war against a limper. Low pp are easier to get away from too. If you hit you take in a huge pot. If you don't, you let it go without worry.

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raisig 77 and other mid/low pairs has been discussed at length in small stakes in the past. I'm sure a lot of good stuff can be found with the search. I think the reasoning comes down to: you have a slight equity edge, when don't flop a set and there's other action you can easily fold, you can check thru and have another shot at hitting a lot of the time, and when you do hit a set you will be paid off big (partially because it will be unexpected and partially because there will frequently be overcards that your opponents pair and pay you off with).

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes a lot of sense. I just thought of one more advantage--they can't put you on a hand. On a good day, I can see it getting checked through a big card flop. Thanks!

Re: limpers & button
 

1. Raise. With five players you're getting odds to hit your set. Great position too.
2. Raise. This hand is strong multiway. Great implied odds, build that pot.
3. Call. Too weak multiway, but I wouldn't dump it since no one has shown any strength.
4. Raise. This would be a raise from me from middle position with any number of limpers, and a tempting coldcall from late position depending on the raiser and whether I'm first to coldcall or not. I think I usually dump it against a raise though. I'd say this hand is much stronger than the JT suited hand, and I'm definitely raising that bad boy with lots of limpers and the blinds coming along.

Re: limpers & button
 

Raise. Raise. Call. Raise.

Re: limpers & button
 

1. Raise
2. Call
3. Raise
4. Raise

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]
*n00b question*

OK I can understand raising with hand 4. But why 1 and 2 ? We already have position, surely there's no advantage in forcing the blinds to fold, we want as many as possible in this pot don't we ??

*edit* i guess a free card is one reason, but its unlikely with this many limpers surely ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Mug; This is how I understand the issue:

If you are up against 3 opponenets, your "share of the pot" is 25%. (4 players, you contribute 1/4 of the money in the pot, let us ignore the dead SB and BB for now...) If your hand expects to win, lets give figure, of about 31% of the time, now a raise from the button with JTs is going to show a good profit. We contribute 25%, but win 31%. That's a good number, and a "VALUE" raise is in order. This is what value betting and raising is all about (and this is what Expected Value is about too) Betting for value also means betting or raising to induce calls, not folds.

So if we play 10/20 limit hold'em, get 3 limpers, we raise with JTs, we'll win 31% of the pot worth $80 (ignore SB BB) = $24.80 we only contirubuted 0.25 X $80.0 = $20. We've made 4.80, or 6%. see? We can also include implied odds to further up this number, but also subract extra bets we need to make on every street. blah blah

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sevens are a clear raise. Same goes for JTs. I call with ATo. KJs is a clear raise.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Shill, my head just exploded.

How the hell do we play the 77 hand post-flop after a raise?

Re: KJs, in my weaker moments I may call with this hand, but I'm 100% ready to raise it from now on, and I will,thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I have a tendancy to raise ATO when:

-I have less than 6 or 7 limpers... if I have this many, I like to call.

-any of the limpers are tight with PFRs in the 6-7% range
(Edit: this would make me fold, not call).
-blind steal situations (duh, though I guess at a jackpot table you might want to call in some situations)

-I'm likely to get the button

-The blinds are likely to fold.

-I'm in late to late-middle position (otherwise I muck it)

Now, over the last 80k hands I've gotten this 739 times (small sample size for this particular hand), but I've managed to make 0.16bb/hand using this approach. This isn't filtered for blind situations, etc. Also, it's possible that a different approach would earn more.

A9o is slightly profitable for me, but A8o and under are in the red I think (some of them by a lot). This is a major leak of mine (ace-mid to ace-little unsuited).

The nasty part when you're playing something like A8o is that you're playing a hand with sometimes as little as three outs and it's really tough to figure out how to play it.

--Dave.

If you've already answered the 77 question to someone else, thanks. Ditto ATo. I've only got as far as your post so far.

--Dave.

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ya, with 5 limpers you can raise any pair here. 77 is particularly nice in that it can win unimproved as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm totally missing this. You would raise *any* pair here -- even 22? Against 5 limpers? We assume all are calling, and half of our pairs only have set value. In particular, how are 7s going to win unimproved against 5 other players seeing the flop?

Is it me, or isn't this an excellent opportunity to limp on the button and see a flop for a set? Your pot equity edge is minimal at best here, could be terrible if you have people limping in with 88 or 99.

Everyone who is advocating raising with 77 (or lower, as some are suggesting) and FIVE limpers needs to throw out a serious argument as to why this is a good move. 3 limpers, maybe I raise, and 2 or less I certainly will. But 5??

Re: limpers & button
 

I think calling >> raising with A10o in this situation. Our PF equity edge is not that big, it doesn't play well in big multiway pots, and I really really want to be bet into on a ten high flop.

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: It could be because I suck post-flop and can't let go, but I think I just limp this.. The problem is the possibility of domination from a passively played AJ, AQ, or even AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this is an argument for folding vs. calling/raising, not really for call vs. raise. I would fold here if one or two of the limpers were tight but had low PFR %.

Re: limpers & button
 

I bump my own thread cuz it's the zhiznitz.

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've been wondering about pre-flop play from the button on some of these hands when there are already several limpers at LPP tables. I'm also weaning myself off the hand charts. The hands below are those I would be raising with with less limpers, but they leave me wondering about their EV against many players. So, I am left uncertain whether to raise or just call. Please forgive me if I'm missing the most obvious play--I'm still learning!

(all 9 handed)
--------------------
Hand 1:
Preflop: Hero is button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 limpers, Hero ???.

raises
--------------------
Hand 2:
Preflop: Hero is button with 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero ???.

id raise this if the blinds are super loose and i know they are coming along. otherwise i just overlimp.
--------------------
Hand 3:
Preflop: Hero is button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero ???.

i think this hand sucks since .5/1 passives can easily limp AJo and AQo but then again they can limp JTo and KTo so i think it is up to the hero and what he thinks the best action is. id say limp 50% raise 50%.
--------------------
Hand 4:
Preflop: Hero is button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero ???.

raises

Edit: typo

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]

--------------------
Hand 1:
Preflop: Hero is button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 limpers, Hero ???.
--------------------


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only one that's remotely interesting to me. The others all seem to have very straight-forward answers. I haven't played in games that loose in a long time (perhaps only those few times I've played in live games). 5 limpers sounds about right for a raise, perhaps with any pocket pair (if there's a cutoff somewhere, it's right around 77). This is one of those things that I've never thought through completely and have simply taken on faith from the advice of many others who have come through this way. I want to think it all the way to the end, but it's quite late. So I'll just start...

You probably have an equity advantage, but it isn't that big and you have a playing disadvantage (large field reduces your postflop edge with non-drawing hands) which negates most of what that advantage might be. So I'm not sure I buy an equity argument for raising. There must be more to it.

The goal is to build a pot so that when you flop a set, you scoop a much bigger pot. You may think to yourself that you're putting in one extra bet to get 5-7 more bets in the pot, and so you're short of the 8:1 you need to flop a set. However, in a larger pot, you often find yourself getting a little more action than you normally would (action in a loose-passive game may just mean more callers). In very passive games, a preflop raise may induce everyone to auto-check to you on the flop (I hear this happens live), so that your one bet actually buys you a look at 4 cards somewhat often.

Sleep beckons. But this gives a small start for someone who wants to add thoughts and comments, and maybe even some calculations and stats(?).

Re: limpers & button
 

raise, raise, raise, raise

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

--------------------
Hand 1:
Preflop: Hero is button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 limpers, Hero ???.
--------------------


[/ QUOTE ]

In very passive games, a preflop raise may induce everyone to auto-check to you on the flop (I hear this happens live), so that your one bet actually buys you a look at 4 cards somewhat often.



[/ QUOTE ]

ding ding ding

If you whiff the flop and there is an ace, king or queen, you can still represent a strong holding. You can raise the flop here for a free card and scoop this monster pot.

Re: limpers & button
 

raise
raise
call
raise

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]
ding ding ding

If you whiff the flop and there is an ace, king or queen, you can still represent a strong holding. You can raise the flop here for a free card and scoop this monster pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
okay you shouldnt be raising this preflop

Re: limpers & button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ding ding ding

If you whiff the flop and there is an ace, king or queen, you can still represent a strong holding. You can raise the flop here for a free card and scoop this monster pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
okay you shouldnt be raising this preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, true and brutally honest

um OP I think you need to think about your comment more, people don't fold TP in small pots, they never fold it in monster pots, this is a huge pot, so you just waste bets representing a hand you don't have in a situation where bluffing is a terrible idea

basically for the most part your bluffs should be in small/medium pots .. yes you will need to succeed more than you would in a large pot, but bluffs are far less likely to work in large pots.