Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Caesars MTT.
$130 / 90 players. Top 9 pay.
4500 starting chips. 60 players remain so average stack is 6750.
Structure is pretty fast as blinds double whenever they increase. 40 minute levels.

My table was not squeezing or restealing at all preflop and overall it was very passive except for 2 maniacs and myself. I have a fairly aggro image but I can not remember showing a hand down for the first 2 hours of the tourney. For what its worth, the villains in this hand were probably not thinking about my image.

Level 4
200/400/25

SB - 8,000
BB - 12,000
UTG - 9,700
Hero has 11,000

UTG is 'the old guy' and he plays accordingly; my major read on him was that he played like an old live nit. He has seen 3 flops and he played good cards and played them very quickly, getting all in once preflop (he 3 bet with KK), and he smooth called a raise once with AK preflop and got all of the chips in by the turn which was A high.

The BB is from the Mid East and plays accordingly. He is very loose aggressive. He bluffs a lot and I would be happy to make a thin call down against him for my chips. I am certain that if I call preflop he will call the BB with virtually any two.

Hero has K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the CO.
'The Old Guy' raises to 1200 UTG, Hero Calls, BB calls.

I figured I would post this street immediately bc if i folded then there is no thread. If you want to say that this is a fold then feel free to do so but I felt that I had a good enough command of the table to be playing marginal hands here, eventhough I was only 30bbs deep

Flop (3800): K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, 'The Old Guy' checks, Hero...?

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Hero bets 2750

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

I'd probably bet because woo tp, but I think checking is probably better on such a dry board. I can't think of worse hands paying off.

I'd also fold pre-flop but you were there so w/e.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

I don't know if I really like that call with a nit raising utg like that. Most of the time I think you're just wasting your chips. As played though, I think you could check this to see what UTG does after BB makes his aggressive play at this pot. Best case - UTG folds to BB bet and you raise all in/or call all in from BB if that's the case. If UTG just calls, I'd evaluate after. If UTG raises, easy fold. Just toying with this idea for multiway pots, something a little more creative then a simple probe bet. If he is aggressive and bluffs a lot, hopefully you can use his money to get a read on UTG. Just a thought.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

When the nit raises UTG, I am not crazy about calling with position. He is telling you he has a a big hand, so let him have the blinds. The money is not deep enough to try to outdraw/outplay him. Plus KT is an awful hand to call a raise with and is easily dominated.

If he raised UTG with AA, KK, or AK, he might check this flop, particularly with KK.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Cornell,

I actually like this tourney. Sure the blinds double, but the 40 min levels and decent starting stacks allow for some pretty decent play compared to your standard $100 buy-in.

On to the hand...

Fold pf

On the flop I can see a lot of merit in checking to induce turn bluff from BB/seeing if old man is slow playing his KK.
Alternatively you can bet like t1500 and maybe induce a bluff from BB/test old man.
Potting it here and getting raised off/going to the felt pretty much sucks w/these stacks imo.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Why aren't we betting here? I think "old man" has QQ/JJ most of the time, since the flop check. By betting here you might get bb to re-steal (because he might think you were stealing) and if bb folds we might get one call from "old man" and check/call to river. I dont see why we are calling preflop with KThh if we are not betting this flop.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

pf call is gross

check flop imo, youre only getting two bets tops out of hands you beat so better to control potsize and underrepresent your hand now.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

I don't see a reason to give BB a chance to put more money in the pot on a "resteal". If the nit calls a big raise by bb are you going to call? I say let the BB do the work for you so you risk less with TP and not so good kicker.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

I think you should bet, in a live tourney I think you get away with betting much less than pot alot. Bet about 1500-2000, fold to r/r. Shut down if old man calls until maybe river.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Level 4
200/400/25

SB - 8,000
BB - 12,000
UTG - 9,700
Hero has 11,000

Hero has K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the CO.
'The Old Guy' raises to 1200 UTG, Hero Calls, BB calls.

Flop (3800): K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, 'The Old Guy' checks, Hero checks

Turn (3800): 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BB checks, Old guy bets 2,000, Hero...?

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

did he turn a set or delayed CB AA? you beat QQ, JJ, and not much else. i hate to fold top pair, but this is not looking good. the board is too dry for bluffing opportunities.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

I'd fold preflop, check flop, call turn with the intention of not putting in anymore chips (although I would call if the BB pushes and I pick up weakness).

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

I would bet flop 100% because BB is not calling (flop missed like 90% of his calling range pf) and if UTG nit calls, you're DONE with the hand. By doing this, you fold out everything UTG nit raised with that you beat, but this is a very good thing since you won't pay him off later in the hand thinking you have the best hand here IN CASE he does have AK/AA/KK here.

I would bet half-pot on the flop, it's the perfect amount. In addition, I would bet on the flop with any two cards. UTG calling here and giving you more action essentially turn your hand into any two.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

As played I think it's standard to call turn fold river. I cannot see him dbl barrelling or betting QQ/JJ on the river if you call his 2k bet on the turn.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Preflop is also pretty [censored] bad.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

check

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

From your original post it sounds like the old man plays fairly straight forward. If he has a decent, but vulnerable hand he will bet it. If he has AK or AA in this spot, I think he is betting the flop. If he has TT-QQ I think he will probably check fold. If he has KK, he will probably slowplay it.

When he checks the flop I think you are behind exactly KK. I would definitely bet the flop because you need to figure out what the guy has. Yes, you might not get max value if he has QQ, but you need to find out if he has a good hand now.

On to the turn..

When he bets the turn he could easily have TT-KK, and now its pretty much a guess. I am going to call the bet and see what he does on the river. Most people will not bet TT-QQ on the river because it does have showdown value. If he fires again you might be getting outplayed, but I think you should probably fold.

On a side note, I dont think the old man has any idea you have a king. I would expect anyone with a king to bet the flop in your position. When you call 4th street he is going to be pretty confused to your holding, but he might think it is you with something like TT.

So basically as played I would call the turn, and fold to any decently sized river bet.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

haha you don't need to bet to figure out where old nits are at, they tell you. and if bb bets the turn, you will know exactly where the old nit is at.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Call turn.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

We should fold K10s against a nit rasing UTG precisely because of the situation we have got ourselves into on this board. We flopped top - pair on a dry board and do not have a clue where we are and are worried about paying off with the worst hand now that we have hit. If effective stacks were 20,000 a call becomes ok as you will have position and can undoubtably outplay both villains. As it is, the old guy has committed one third of his stack by this point...


As played,I think you have to fold. If he has you beat, it logically looks like a checked top set off the flop, or a sick set of nines. You have seen him bet AK previously after flopping TPTK, and it is unlikely that he is in there with KQ // KJ given his image. The only reservation I have is that a player like that may not find a bet on the turn with QQ to 1010, and might check that flop with AA sometimes. His range in this spot has you crushed tbf, and if you call and he is behind you won't be taking any more money out of him.

So fold.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Interesting hand Cornell. Here are some of my thoughts on it.

Preflop: Easy fold. A nit raised UTG, and the implied odds aren't good enough for you. Position helps a bit, but not nearly enough.

Flop: Interesting spot. The check of the nit confuses me.

[ QUOTE ]

he played good cards and played them very quickly


[/ QUOTE ]

This is crucial. This would imply that the nit is betting this flop with AK/KK/AA every time. So I acually think we can take these hands out of his range.

IMO the nits most likely holdings after he checks the flop are TT/JJ/QQ or AQ. (out of his preflop range UTG which is probably TT+, AQ+.

So actually, I think we are ahead of the nits range on the flop given the read about how he plays strong hands. Hard to tell what BB has, but we are probably ahead of him too. Given theese assumptions we could certainly bet the flop.

However, I see your point that no weaker hands will give us action on this board, which I agree with. I don't really have a problem with letting another card come off on this board, because our position makes it easier for us to keep control. The advantage of checking here is that BB is fairly likely to take a stab with various holdings on the turn. We will easily be ahead of his range in this situation, so that would be nice. Also we will get to see what UTG does then. If he gets involved, we should probably abanadon the ship though. But depending on the turn card, I don't think he will very often, considering his flop check. Given all these advantages, I think checking behind on the flop is a very nice play.

Turn: A relatively blank card, probably hasn't helped any of the hands in UTG's range. Actually 99 could be in his range, maybe I was giving him too much credit for raising UTG. It doesn't change things all that though.

So let's try to figure out what UTG's bet could mean. Assuming he is not a retard or something, and knows some hand reading, he probably thinks nobody has a king since the flop checked around. I think he could very well be betting his QQ/JJ/TT by now. Most players would, and I can't imagine him not doing so.

I think we need to call this turn. We are getting almost 3 to 1, and we have position which will be extremely useful on the river.

Our plan on the river is very dependent on what BB does (he'll probably fold though), and also the river card and how UTG responds to it. I figure there is a great chance he will check though, and then we can probably check behind with plenty of showdown value.

If you did call, I'll be looking forward to the river decision.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Well I think betting the flops makes this hand so much easier but now I would call. If he has QQ-TT he has to bet here and protect his hand, he will doubt you or other player have a K. Obviously if he was slowplaying he also has to bet now to start building the pot.

I would call with the intention of folding the river to a reasonable bet, I have the feeling the river is going to be a K or T though.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Fold pre-flop

Otherwise, I like post-fop play. If you are going to call
an UTG nit raise with K10s, then:

1) you better extract value from hands that you out- flop
2) Lose the min when you are still behind

Checking the flop accomplishes both of these since your
flop check will probably induce a turn bet with QQ, JJ, and 10's.

On the turn, you either have a value bet from KK or AA,
or a feeler/value bet with QQ, JJ, or 10s. (I think this player bets flop with AK). So about a 2 to 1 hand-ratio in your favor. Call the turn.

On the river- I fold to any substantial bet since a nit would rarely fire a 2nd barrel value-bet with QQ, JJ, 10s.

The intersting question becomes when the river blanks and he checks do you value bet? Obviously you can't bet that much since he most likely has an underpair to your K. But I think to make your pre-flop call ok, you need to add some extra value when he checks the river.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Cornell,

call turn. If you're heads up on the river with the old man and he checks I can see making a small v-bet trying to get a call from QQ. Old man bets the river, you're prob pretty f'd so fold.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

From the description of the villian I don't think he is paying off a value bet on the river. This is a key reason why I think a turn call is bad.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Level 4
200/400/25

SB - 8,000
BB - 12,000
UTG - 9,700
Hero has 11,000

Hero has K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the CO.
'The Old Guy' raises to 1200 UTG, Hero Calls, BB calls.

Flop (3800): K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, 'The Old Guy' checks, Hero checks

Turn (3800): 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BB checks, Old guy bets 2,000, Hero calls, BB folds.

River (7800): 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Old guy instashoves for 6,500 more; Hero...?


I will give my thoughts on all streets later

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Instashove by old nits is usally a bet that doesn't want to get called in my experience, he could definately have AQ or something here and is (as most old nits say) "tired of getting pushed around." I would try to pick a read one way or another and go with it. From your descriptions so far I'd call. Of course I'd be dissapointed when he shows KK or 99 (I dont think he has AK or AA like some have suggested), but then again I would never be in this situation to begin with because the PF call is ugly.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

I think a hero call of the shove on the river would be pretty bad.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Instashove by old nits is usally a bet that doesn't want to get called in my experience, he could definately have AQ or something here and is (as most old nits say) "tired of getting pushed around." I would try to pick a read one way or another and go with it. From your descriptions so far I'd call. Of course I'd be dissapointed when he shows KK or 99 (I dont think he has AK or AA like some have suggested), but then again I would never be in this situation to begin with because the PF call is ugly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't get this analysis. Old guy has seen 3 flops before this hand and he's been the only one showing any aggression this hand, how does that equal, "tired of getting pushed around". From OP's description I don't see how he can ever have AQ here.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Tough spot.

It goes back to what he thinks you have. Honestly, I wouldnt know what you held, but I wouldnt think it is top pair. If I had KK or 99, I would probably bet a smaller amount and hope you call with an underpair to the K.

The problem is I dont think he has TT, JJ, QQ anymore. These hands have a lot of showdown value, and would probably be check/called. Even if he had AA or AK I would expect a smaller bet.

This bet looks like he wants you to go away. He thinks you are weak and that he can buy the pot. Maybe he has AQs or AJs and feels like you will fold TT here.

Would definitely like to hear results

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

I'd really want to call and I'm not very good at folding once we get to the turn so I'd probably chat him up and call unless he got chatty back.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

I think he's shoving QQ/JJ a lot since he wont put you on a K most of the time here. Regardless of your PF action, i dont mind the call too much, you have slow played TP by not betting the flop and only calling the turn. I'm only worried about a couple hands really, a better K like KQ/KJ (doubtful given your read), AK, KK, and AA. 99 and any 2 is not really in his UTG range here. I think I'm calling.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

I think that KQs is in his range and he's very excited that you might have KJ or K10. I think that with QQ/JJ he checks here. A lot depends on how he read your call on the turn, I suppose. If you think he thinks that you like calling light with 1010 or a lower pair, then call. If you think he's not thinking about that at all, then fold.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that KQs is in his range and he's very excited that you might have KJ or K10. I think that with QQ/JJ he checks here. A lot depends on how he read your call on the turn, I suppose. If you think he thinks that you like calling light with 1010 or a lower pair, then call. If you think he's not thinking about that at all, then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

He won't generally instapush KQ/KJ here I would suggest. That's why I want to call.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that KQs is in his range and he's very excited that you might have KJ or K10. I think that with QQ/JJ he checks here. A lot depends on how he read your call on the turn, I suppose. If you think he thinks that you like calling light with 1010 or a lower pair, then call. If you think he's not thinking about that at all, then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

He won't generally instapush KQ/KJ here I would suggest. That's why I want to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well...In my experience when I felt like I was playing like an "old nit," if I saw someone call me on the turn when I had KQ, I would immediately think "OMG, my king is better than his" and get it in nervously and fast on the river. The other thing is that if he has an inkling that Cornell is one of those smart-ass young internet players, he may be just dying to trap Cornell by waiting until the turn and then doing a "quick" move on the river to throw him off / get him to call his K10. Then he can tell his old-nit friends that Cornell called with K10 and he knew he'd get him to call with a weak king/small pair because he doesn't know how to play.

Barry.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you think he's not thinking about that at all, then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hammer. Nail. Head.

In the OP, hero noted that he didn't think either villain was paying too much attention to how he had been playing. The inference is that both guys are really just playing their own cards.

- He isn't sitting there wondering about how light villain usually calls.

- In my experience, guys that just play their own cards will rarely shove pocket pairs on boards that contain overcards (they are more likely to check call in this spot).

- Given what we heard about this guy I don't think he has AQ / AJ. And I can't think why he would be worried about being bullied or pushed around if he has only played a couple of hands, and hasn't taken a beat or had to make a big laydown.


Yeah, finding a fold after you persisted to the river is hard. Doesn't make it wrong. Just muck it.

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Cornell,

What does your command of the table look like on this river?

fold pf x 17

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Level 4
200/400/25

SB - 8,000
BB - 12,000
UTG - 9,700
Hero has 11,000

Hero has K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the CO.
'The Old Guy' raises to 1200 UTG, Hero Calls, BB calls.

Flop (3800): K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, 'The Old Guy' checks, Hero checks

Turn (3800): 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BB checks, Old guy bets 2,000, Hero calls, BB folds.

River (7800): 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Old guy instashoves for 6,500 more; Hero...?


I will give my thoughts on all streets later

[/ QUOTE ]

superinstaturbomuck

Re: Caesars (130.) KTs street by street.
 

Whoa, didn't expect that.

I can't see old-nit doing that with QQ, JJ unless he really
thinks you hit the 9 and will call him. Even so, I would expect him to take a moment before betting.

I can't see him doing that with KK since he has the nuts and
even nits understand how to value bet nut hands on the river.

That would only leave me with AA or AK. I think he might play it this way. But from your read, I would think that he
would most likely play both hands straight-forward.

So now, I might have to change my preflop read to include AQ and maybe AJs. Those hands make the most sense actually.

1) Check whiffed flop- no one bet
2) Put out a feeler bet, get called
3) River 2, u-oh don't have squat and
the pot is big... ALL-IN!!!

Damn, now I'm leaning towards calling. I think he realy
believes that you hit the 9 and his QQ, JJ is good, or he doesn't have squat and that is the only way he can win.

Call