Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

Villan is a 2p2er and is capable of making a move on this flop without nuts ;D.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed)

MP ($207)
CO ($155.55)
Button ($184)
SB ($208.65)
BB ($111.30)
Hero ($196)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $8, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $17</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $42</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $188</font>

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

ZOMG spew.

If you have AK here, it's slightly better since you have some real equity against opponent's range.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

Looks like spew, what is your image at this table?

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

This is fine sometimes for sure... If your opponent will fold 88 and TT here, this is a totally acceptable play.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

I have been tight and have not gotten out of hand at all.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

Don't know why villain would raise you here with the BB still active as a bluff.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

zomg don't bleed my eyes [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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This is fine sometimes for sure... If your opponent will fold 88 and TT here, this is a totally acceptable play.

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If they call with 99 it is unacceptable?

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

My line is strong and they fold tens down. 44/66 'usually' call flop here and thats a small part of his pf calling range.

Do you guys just say its spew because you are sooo ABC? Are you able to look past the strength of your own hand.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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ZOMG spew.

If you have AK here, it's slightly better since you have some real equity against opponent's range.

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AK isn't a large part of his range here at all, 2+2er prob RR pf ak quite a bit. This bet tells me he has one of three things: the goods (pay me!), a flush draw(slow down!) or a mid pair(do you have AA?). Also this play helps you get paid off more when you actually have AA if you show down. So... I like

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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AK isn't a large part of his range here at all, 2+2er prob RR pf ak quite a bit. This bet tells me he has one of three things: the goods (pay me!), a flush draw(slow down!) or a mid pair(do you have AA?). Also this play helps you get paid off more when you actually have AA if you show down.

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good post. Agree with everything you wrote.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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ZOMG spew.

If you have AK here, it's slightly better since you have some real equity against opponent's range.

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AK isn't a large part of his range here at all, 2+2er prob RR pf ak quite a bit. This bet tells me he has one of three things: the goods (pay me!), a flush draw(slow down!) or a mid pair(do you have AA?). Also this play helps you get paid off more when you actually have AA if you show down. So... I like

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I said I like this move better if Hero has AK, then he has real equity vs opponent's range (pp from 77-QQ).

I've noticed a lot lately that successful bluffing is a combination of outs + reads. This means if I had a super read against opponent on a similar flop, but I hold 22, I'd be less inclined to bluff, since if I get called I'm drawing to 2 outs.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

I tried a similar move vs a donk heads up in position w/ AJ on a 8-4-4 board. He called my shove w/ 55. Conclusion: Make sure you know who your trying to fold out at NL200...

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

Pretty much every 2p2 will repop JJ+, AQ+. So saying I do better against his range w/ AK is ridiculous. Only exception might be AQdd that he did not 3bet preflop, but thats all I can think of.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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I tried a similar move vs a donk heads up in position w/ AJ on a 8-4-4 board. He called my shove w/ 55. Conclusion: Make sure you know who your trying to fold out at NL200...


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Notice I said 2p2er. Against a donk this is horrible for obvious reasons.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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Pretty much every 2p2 will repop JJ+, AQ+. So saying I do better against his range w/ AK is ridiculous. Only exception might be AQdd that he did not 3bet preflop, but thats all I can think of.

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You don't see that we are saying the same thing?

Try this out:

If villain has JJ, how many outs do you have?
If villain has QQ, how many outs do you have?
If villain has KK, how many outs do you have?
If villain ahs AA, how many outs do you have?

Give yourself AK and repeat the exercise. Which fairs better, and why?

Bluffing profit is a function of bluff success + equity if you get called. Maximizing both is ideal.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

Obviously AK fairs better but he rarely rarely rarely has JJ/QQ/KK/AA here so the question you are asking is irrelevant and the concepts you are explaining are so elementary and wrongly applied that you are making my head hurt.

I think I fair well against his range, since hes folding a lot of bluffs/fd's/most pps/etc. when I come over the top. No offense, but I dont feel like replying to you anymore MasterLJ.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

first of all if villian is capable of making this move on this flop, why are you betting it? this is a classic bluff board. this all in is very dependent on what his range is. how often is he doing this with air vs set/boat or flush draw and how often is he willing to call with just a pair or even AK. if you think he is willing to fold a pair then meh.... buuut your prolly going to loose your stack too often here.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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Pretty much every 2p2 will repop JJ+, AQ+. So saying I do better against his range w/ AK is ridiculous. Only exception might be AQdd that he did not 3bet preflop, but thats all I can think of.

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You don't see that we are saying the same thing?

Try this out:

If villain has JJ, how many outs do you have?
If villain has QQ, how many outs do you have?
If villain has KK, how many outs do you have?
If villain ahs AA, how many outs do you have?

Give yourself AK and repeat the exercise. Which fairs better, and why?

Bluffing profit is a function of bluff success + equity if you get called. Maximizing both is ideal.

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We see what you are saying, but JJ+ is not a part of his range here IMO

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

If his range is that defined, then this is an easy easy place to bluff with lots of equity for times that he decides to call.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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first of all if villian is capable of making this move on this flop, why are you betting it? this is a classic bluff board. this all in is very dependent on what his range is. how often is he doing this with air vs set/boat or flush draw and how often is he willing to call with just a pair or even AK. if you think he is willing to fold a pair then meh.... buuut your prolly going to loose your stack too often here.

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this reads like one of those horrible essays you have to edit when practicing for some standardized test. Please try again

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

i would rather call, lead the turn your hand looks like a bluff, so i would rather take your line with a hand i will felt.

edit: assuming your read is correct.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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first of all if villian is capable of making this move on this flop, why are you betting it? this is a classic bluff board. this all in is very dependent on what his range is. how often is he doing this with air vs set/boat or flush draw and how often is he willing to call with just a pair or even AK. if you think he is willing to fold a pair then meh.... buuut your prolly going to loose your stack too often here.

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this reads like one of those horrible essays you have to edit when practicing for some standardized test. Please try again

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Ok so basically.. against good players, check that flop.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

dude have a flush draw or something. or AK

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

I check the flop a lot. right/wrong?

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

I think this depend on the aggression level, but is a good spot to rebluff. There's a lot of raising at this flop with weak holdings that can't stand a reraise.

Please note, that I said that it should work, no that it works.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

If villain is a 2+2er and has heard of the yeti theorem you're toast [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

so most of you dont like it? some of you cant think beyond your own hand. Work on that!

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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so most of you dont like it? some of you cant think beyond your own hand. Work on that!

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No offense, but it seems like you need to get over yourself...you made a bluff, he folded, congrats...some people seem to think that overall it's a losing play, others think it's kind of sexy, but more think spew...Don't post a hand as "sexy or spew?" if you're only interested in having your ego stroked by people saying it's sexy, and don't want to even contemplate the possibility that it is spew.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

Yup, I like it. His flop raise don't make a ton of sense unless he has AQ/KQdd. And then it really depends on how gambly he is.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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No offense, but it seems like you need to get over yourself...you made a bluff, he folded, congrats...some people seem to think that overall it's a losing play, others think it's kind of sexy, but more think spew...Don't post a hand as "sexy or spew?" if you're only interested in having your ego stroked by people saying it's sexy, and don't want to even contemplate the possibility that it is spew.

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Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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No offense, but it seems like you need to get over yourself...you made a bluff, he folded, congrats...some people seem to think that overall it's a losing play, others think it's kind of sexy, but more think spew...Don't post a hand as "sexy or spew?" if you're only interested in having your ego stroked by people saying it's sexy, and don't want to even contemplate the possibility that it is spew.

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Everyone who thinks its spew, arent giving any valid reasons. Put him on a range, etc.

Me get over myself? HAR HAR HAR!

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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No offense, but it seems like you need to get over yourself...you made a bluff, he folded, congrats...some people seem to think that overall it's a losing play, others think it's kind of sexy, but more think spew...Don't post a hand as "sexy or spew?" if you're only interested in having your ego stroked by people saying it's sexy, and don't want to even contemplate the possibility that it is spew.

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Everyone who thinks its spew, arent giving any valid reasons. Put him on a range, etc.

Me get over myself? HAR HAR HAR!

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This is complete spew. What range are you assiging him? It seems to me that the only though process you could possibly have behind this hand is "well I'll go all-in, I hope he doesn't have anything." that is not good poker

What exactly about this spot makes you want to bluff? It's 3-handed, he's raising with someone left to act, etc. What range do you think he has to raise flop and then fold to a 3-bet when he could easily put you on a draw?

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

Ok, I'll say it again. This is a play that is good sometimes, and only against palyers who will fold 88-TT kind of hands... If he wont fold these, don't do it. If he will fold these, do it once in a while. Anyone who says it is complete spew and always spew is dead wrong...

EDIT: FWIW, AJ isn't really much better than A2 assuming we make the move, because have established that if we make the move, we think he is capable of folding at least 88-TT. We don't think he will fold JJ+ here, so A2 fairs basically the same against his calling range. Make this play with any ace against the right players with the right frequency and it IS +EV.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

keyser your questions have already been answered.someone who thinks its complete spew do you mind giving a reasonable explanation.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

Keyser and all other in "spew" camp:
Heres my logic...

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This bet tells me he usually has one of three things:
1. the goods (pay me!),
2. a flush draw(slow down!)
3.a mid pair(do you have AA?, i'll go away).

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Also this play will get people to pay me off lighter if it does not work out. Its obviously not a standard line, and thats why most of you just deem it as spew. Honestly if I posted this in msnl most would say its- occasionally fine. I understand ssnl is different but given conditions this is not "complete spew". Just trying to encourage ssnl to think beyond the power of your own hand. I have played much higher which isnt a brag but just trying to show you a nonstandard line that is much more common at higher stakes but can still occasionally work in ssnl under right conditions. Food for thought.

Flame away.

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

From one James to another,

I didn't mean to imply in my earlier post that you should never take this line. Used rarely and against the right opponent in the right situation, it is sexy indeed as part of an overall balanced strategy (I would obv note a play like this if you made it against me or at the table while I was paying attention) and thus could lead to overadjustment by observant opponents, which you could exploit to your advantage.

I was mainly just responding to the general tone of a few of your posts in this thread. They seemed to come off as a brag post, like "look at me, I'm such a badass, if you don't like this play you're a [censored] nit."

So, I guess I vote for sexy...if used sparingly against the right opponents.

--JimmyB13

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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If you have AK here, it's slightly better since you have some real equity against opponent's range.

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???

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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If you have AK here, it's slightly better since you have some real equity against opponent's range.

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???

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b/c you'd have two overs against QQ, etc etc

Re: Spew or Sexy: You decide!
 

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Keyser and all other in "spew" camp:
Heres my logic...

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This bet tells me he usually has one of three things:
1. the goods (pay me!),
2. a flush draw(slow down!)
3.a mid pair(do you have AA?, i'll go away).

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Also this play will get people to pay me off lighter if it does not work out. Its obviously not a standard line, and thats why most of you just deem it as spew. Honestly if I posted this in msnl most would say its- occasionally fine. I understand ssnl is different but given conditions this is not "complete spew". Just trying to encourage ssnl to think beyond the power of your own hand. I have played much higher which isnt a brag but just trying to show you a nonstandard line that is much more common at higher stakes but can still occasionally work in ssnl under right conditions. Food for thought.

Flame away.

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sure, "sometimes" it's fine, like anything else in poker. When I say "complete spew" I don't necessarily mean that it is 100% a horrible play at all times.

ok, semantics aside, I think this is a poor spot to bluff because it's basically a dark-tunnel bluff. Like you really have no idea what your opponent has and you're just praying he doesn't have something. I'd prefer for a bluff to develop more organically is all I'm saying.