Wpex Stole My Money
 

I know about the "Official Wpex" thread, but since this is a bit different, I felt it deserved its own thread.

My user name at Wpex is DAC... maybe you've seen me or played with me, since I've played a LOT there over the past 6 months - mainly 3-6 and 1-2 limit. I earned 24K of rakeback and another 3K in AA promotion money... also made the occasional sports wager to show my respect... always tried to start new tables and get games going… also actively promoted/hyped the site to others who joined... my reward?

Well on Monday night, I tried to make my first withdrawal… for $4,000... Tuesday morning, my account was locked... I assumed it was from the new release, but when I talked to support, they said it was locked because "Computer Assistance" had been detected on my account, and an "investigation" was underway.

My confusion was ignored, and the support people ultimately told me "Sean the Manager" would personally call me to discuss... when this never happened, I followed up today and received this gem:

"I have spoken with Sean about this matter and it was decided that your account will remain closed and all funds are going to be frozen. The reason being that you were detected using computer assistance with your poker playing.

You can call to discuss the matter with me if you like, however after with my discussion with Sean it was decided that the decision is final.

Nigel"

So I called Nigel, and he was top notch actually... but I only received vague reasons why my account was closed. I pointed out the "coincidence" of making a withdrawal request and then being banned... he admitted that "checks" were done only after the cashout request.

So, be careful out there... your money is controlled by the whims of others and you have no recourse if you are accused of something.

DAC

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

What programs were you using? We never seem to hear that part of the stories.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

I'm pretty sure 50% of the player base is going to have their funds frozen if it's the software I think it is.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure 50% of the player base is going to have their funds frozen if it's the software I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol @ 50%....more like 80%...and I'm one of the few donkeys that can't get the stupid thing to work [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] maybe it'll save me in the end.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure 50% of the player base is going to have their funds frozen if it's the software I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

details?

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

This is awesome I hope they use the seized money for advertising so the people who play legally can get some new players to play against.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure 50% of the player base is going to have their funds frozen if it's the software I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

details?

[/ QUOTE ]

pokerace equivalent

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

They don't allow it? Are we talking about GT? Are we for some reason not allowed to say that? I don't understand why they'd format their HHs to allow it but still say it is against the rules?

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

If this is true this ia a HUGE scumbag move on their part. They wait until OP wants to cash out to decide he can't keep the money?

Even PartyPoker, the worst run business ever, sent out stuff saying "hey you are using _____ (i think it was called pokeredge? w/e that DB site people used was), stop or we take your USD"

This is like "hey thanks for the traffic but you've been violating the rules all along"

Not only is this a disservice to OP, but to the people that WPEX feels were "cheated" i guess by OP using "computer assistance". it's completely contradictory.

i'm glad I never put $ on this site.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

luckily i dont use anything

but wow

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

http://www.worldpx.com/game_info/game_integ.asp?game=3

Additional Security/Software Assistance

Our proprietary security-monitoring-system software is constantly upgraded to adapt to the ever-changing online environment. We have implemented security features designed to detect automated programs that enable the use of artificial intelligence at our poker tables. The use of such “bot” software programs violates our Terms and Conditions of Use, and is detrimental to other players. Our software monitors a number of predetermined variables. If a flag is raised on a suspicious account, our security analysts will conduct further investigation.


.....................

If any player is suspected of either cheating or collusion, his account is immediately frozen pending further investigation by our security staff. If this investigation determines that collusion has occurred or that a “bot” or another form of illegal software has been used in play, the account will be terminated WITHOUT the release of that player’s funds. We can then distribute those funds among our other players through a variety of means.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

I haven't heard you deny you were using some type of bot.

Fred Balfour
WSEX.com

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

Just once, I'd like to see a site rep come on and say "hahahahaha we DID steal all your money! We pwned U!" ... and after the inevitable 'WTF?!' responses, follow up with "btw, OP was using [insert bot software here], too bad, game over".

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

This is horrible.

If OP was cheating (and violating the Ts&Cs _is_ cheating) I am completely OK with permabanning him from the site. Taking his money without warning and only after a cashout request, on the other hand, is totally unacceptable.

To be handled correctly WPEX should be actively monitoring unacceptable behavior, then send out warning. After all, it is very possible the user in question does not know they are violating the user agreement, or that WPEX is wrong about their findings. Iff after the warning and thorough investigation the illicit activity is continued, sure, take the money. But to allow one customer to consistently cheat to gain an advantage over others, and only later, without forewarning or notice, confiscate the gains from said cheating, that is outright thievery and is complicit in cheating their other (compliant) customers out of their money.

Appalling.

I can't play at a site that behaves like this. What a shame.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't heard you deny you were using some type of bot.

Fred Balfour
WSEX.com

[/ QUOTE ]

But why did you just notice he was using the bot NOW? AFTER he played all those hands?

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

Because we just got some new tools.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I haven't heard you deny you were using some type of bot.

Fred Balfour
WSEX.com

[/ QUOTE ]

But why did you just notice he was using the bot NOW? AFTER he played all those hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP already answered that: [ QUOTE ]
he admitted that "checks" were done only after the cashout request.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because we just got some new tools.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fred, you are undoubtedly smarter and more knowledgeable than me, especially about this. But please acknowledge that you do see how your policies, as applied to OP, are unfair. To suspects, as there is no petition or recourse for any reason, and to honest players as well, as your company ultimately reaps the rewards of cheating in the games.

Also, since you say these tools are new, please reassure us that the situation described in the original post is not standard operating procedure, and will not be occurring in the future - that from now on cheating will be stopped as it happens, not when they try to cash out.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because we just got some new tools.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so what was the bot?
And are you sharing info with other sites about the offender and his offending software?

And just how the hell does the player base know what YOU do with the money?

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't heard you deny you were using some type of bot.

Fred Balfour
WSEX.com

[/ QUOTE ]

Guilty until proven innocent?

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because we just got some new tools.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fred, you are undoubtedly smarter and more knowledgeable than me, especially about this. But please acknowledge that you do see how your policies, as applied to OP, are unfair. To suspects, as there is no petition or recourse for any reason, and to honest players as well, as your company ultimately reaps the rewards of cheating in the games.

Also, since you say these tools are new, please reassure us that the situation described in the original post is not standard operating procedure, and will not be occurring in the future - that from now on cheating will be stopped as it happens, not when they try to cash out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, cheating will be stopped as it happens. We don't just wait for the cashout.

The player is welcome to raise a claim with the Gaming Commission of Antigua. We will be happy to justify our actions in front of them. If they see things differently, the player will be paid in full.

We will not post in public or disclose to the player how we were alerted to this situation.

It is not without warning. It is in our rules which all players sign off on when they play with us.

Months ago players were complaining about Bots on our site. We shut down a few suspects and built some better tools. These tools, while they may not catch everyone, do not in our opinion put out false positives.

Where is the praise for doing something about the bots?

Fred

PS- I still don't see the player denying anything.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

Antigua Gaming Complaint form:

http://www.antiguagaming.gov.ag/complaints.asp

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because we just got some new tools.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fred, you are undoubtedly smarter and more knowledgeable than me, especially about this. But please acknowledge that you do see how your policies, as applied to OP, are unfair. To suspects, as there is no petition or recourse for any reason, and to honest players as well, as your company ultimately reaps the rewards of cheating in the games.

Also, since you say these tools are new, please reassure us that the situation described in the original post is not standard operating procedure, and will not be occurring in the future - that from now on cheating will be stopped as it happens, not when they try to cash out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, cheating will be stopped as it happens. We don't just wait for the cashout.

The player is welcome to raise a claim with the Gaming Commission of Antigua. We will be happy to justify our actions in front of them. If they see things differently, the player will be paid in full.

We will not post in public or disclose to the player how we were alerted to this situation.

It is not without warning. It is in our rules which all players sign off on when they play with us.

Months ago players were complaining about Bots on our site. We shut down a few suspects and built some better tools. These tools, while they may not catch everyone, do not in our opinion put out false positives.

Where is the praise for doing something about the bots?

Fred

PS- I still don't see the player denying anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are the seized funds going to be redistributed to the players from which they were won?

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

Is it a bot which he clearly knows could run this risk?

Or was it a heads-up display which, it seems, many people believe is still okay to use on your site.


There is a difference between the two.
It's your choice to not want players to use either of course.
But confiscatig his funds for just a heads-up display without really giving any warning that he needs to stop using the program seems pretty extreme.

If it was a true 'bot' that can play without him even being at the computer then good-job on catching him (although it apparently took awhile).

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

Bwuhahahaha !!! WSEX GM, get all the guys who are using the "illegal" programs. Of course, you will cut your traffic in half (or more). This all goes back to that argument of months ago about storing HH's on the hard drive. They ALL said it was only to check their own play and for "tax" reasons. Poor souls just can't play without help. I think it's funny. I said it then and I say it now, they were bull [censored] you the whole time WSEX GM, they only wanted it to use to kill the fish faster (and they can't even remotely play without it).

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

We believe it was some type of bot.

Fred

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
Months ago players were complaining about Bots on our site. We shut down a few suspects and built some better tools. These tools, while they may not catch everyone, do not in our opinion put out false positives.

Where is the praise for doing something about the bots?

Fred

PS- I still don't see the player denying anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Fred,

I praise WPEX for taking the bot issue seriously and for taking action to close bot-users accounts and seize their funds.

THANK YOU!
Benjamin

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this investigation determines that collusion has occurred or that a “bot” or another form of illegal software has been used in play, the account will be terminated WITHOUT the release of that player’s funds.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Proof of Collusion? OK, fine.
2. Proof of 'BOT'? OK, fine.
3. Proof of "Another Form of Illegal Software" Ha, LOL!
what like 60-80% of the player base is using GT+ with the "enhancement." Get ready for mass confiscation LOL. And, GM does not address the timing of the siezure of OP's $.

An unappealable seizure of someone's money without ANY real due process? Very sporting of you chap.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

This is amazing work by WSEX. Why the computer nerds on here cannot get it through their heads that PokerTracker and whatever else on WSEX is CHEATING is beyond me. If you cannot play without using these tools, then play at another site where it is not against the rules.

Congrats to WSEX for working to keep online poker on a level playing field for those of us who just want to play poker and not worry about software arms races.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
And, GM does not address the timing of the siezure of OP's $.

[/ QUOTE ]


yes he does.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

WSEX_GM: “I haven't heard you deny you were using some type of bot.”

My post accurately described everything that has happened to this point, and I have been accused of nothing more specific than “Computer Assistance” – which even from the TOS you pasted, could mean “collusion”, “bot”, or “another form of illegal software” (quite a catch-all that one)… is there a list of illegal software? Handgrabber? PokerTracker? PokerAce? PokerStove?

I would have loved to talk about what software I use – which I offered to do several times – but as copied in the Email, your staff already made a “final decision”. You seem to suggest I used a “bot” – what bot? Is automating button presses (hotkeys) a bot? It’s great you’re now open to discussing the situation – if your decision is “final”, though, is there even a point - are you open to reversing your decision? I carry no ill will either way – my only purpose in this forum was to alert others of what I thought was your company’s very poor handling of the situation.

And others on this forum have hit on this larger picture – that you’d drop this bombshell on a loyal customer only after he tries to cash out… that you didn’t even tell him what it was or give him a chance to explain just adds to the problem. You say you just “got new tools”… I’m sure some in this world would buy this happy coincidence, but I can confidently tell you that the readers of this forum will interpret that answer as pure BS, which of course it is.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
WSEX_GM: “I haven't heard you deny you were using some type of bot.”

My post accurately described everything that has happened to this point, and I have been accused of nothing more specific than “Computer Assistance” – which even from the TOS you pasted, could mean “collusion”, “bot”, or “another form of illegal software” (quite a catch-all that one)… is there a list of illegal software? Handgrabber? PokerTracker? PokerAce? PokerStove?

I would have loved to talk about what software I use – which I offered to do several times – but as copied in the Email, your staff already made a “final decision”. You seem to suggest I used a “bot” – what bot? Is automating button presses (hotkeys) a bot? It’s great you’re now open to discussing the situation – if your decision is “final”, though, is there even a point - are you open to reversing your decision? I carry no ill will either way – my only purpose in this forum was to alert others of what I thought was your company’s very poor handling of the situation.

And others on this forum have hit on this larger picture – that you’d drop this bombshell on a loyal customer only after he tries to cash out… that you didn’t even tell him what it was or give him a chance to explain just adds to the problem. You say you just “got new tools”… I’m sure some in this world would buy this happy coincidence, but I can confidently tell you that the readers of this forum will interpret that answer as pure BS, which of course it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want to talk about this here?

What were you using?

We'll have our people install it and if it yields the same results, and it is not something against our rules, we will pay you.

Fred Balfour
General Manager
WSEX.com

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
I carry no ill will either way

[/ QUOTE ]


I find this statement to be curious.
Why wouldn't you carry any ill-will at all about them taking all your money?
Feels almost like a bot-admission to me but I'm willing to be open-minded about this.


The readers of this forum are probably interested in what programs you were using.
They would like to know if you were really 'botting' as most on here would define it...or if you were just using hot-keys.

If you were just using hot-keys though then I would think you would right-away be saying, "All I was doing was using hot-keys and I think this is why they thought I was botting."

Since you are not even saying what you were doing it sure feels like an admission that you were truly botting (using the definition that you didn't even need to be sitting at your computer while your bot was playing your hands for you).

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

DAC_
stranger
Reged: 03/20/07
Posts: 1

WHY IS IT ALWAYS THESE GUYS?

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I carry no ill will either way

[/ QUOTE ]


I find this statement to be curious.
Why wouldn't you carry any ill-will at all about them taking all your money?
Feels almost like a bot-admission to me but I'm willing to be open-minded about this.


The readers of this forum are probably interested in what programs you were using.
They would like to know if you were really 'botting' as most on here would define it...or if you were just using hot-keys.

If you were just using hot-keys though then I would think you would right-away be saying, "All I was doing was using hot-keys and I think this is why they thought I was botting."

Since you are not even saying what you were doing it sure feels like an admission that you were truly botting (using the definition that you didn't even need to be sitting at your computer while your bot was playing your hands for you).

[/ QUOTE ]

Methinks he protesteth too little.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] WPEX

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

Ive never played at WSEX, primarily because i heard it was a tough site to play on, but secondly because it has SEX in its name.

But i think its pretty cool that their General Manager has come here and the way they have handled the situation says a lot about the company.

OP,

The fact that you were found out after cashing out isnt such a big deal - id imagine their new anti botting tools work on a random basis but following any cashout they will check that players logs before giving them the green light.

So whilst they will (presumably) catch botters whilst they are playing, as a last line of defense they will catch cheats at the withdrawal stage.

The only unanswered questions are if the program accidentally produced a false positive, and what happens to the funds of the (alledged) cheat in question.

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

Awesome work Fred. Awesome

Dac -- the fact that you will not come clean about what software you were using makes me agree with Fred even more

And awesome response time Fred ... you are a true breath of fresh air in this industry

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

WSEX GM: as homer asked
[ QUOTE ]
Are the seized funds going to be redistributed to the players from which they were won?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what it says in your terms and conditions

Re: Wpex Stole My Money
 

WSEX GM:

There is something in your story which I don't understand. You said that you could not detect Dac's bot usage before the time when he was cashing out, because you just got new tools only then.

How did your tools find out then that he was using a bot? It appears to me that your tools could only find that out while he was playing, not when he was cashing out?