Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

Hello,

I'am a Noob with about 2300 hands under my belt. I spent some time in the form but this is my first post.

I've read SSHE and I think I have absorbed some of it. Anyway I just wanted to try a post-(converter tool).

I think this hand is pretty standard. My question is should I have raised the turn with p8's

Thanks.



PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (7 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, Button folds.

River: (9 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

The UTG limp is ungood, unless you are absolutely certain you will get multiple limpers and no raise PF. I refer you to the PF section in SSHE regarding middle pocket pairs. IIRC, it says something to the effect that mid-pocket pairs either play well against a very small field (in which you are more likely win unimproved) or a large field for set value.

Also, fold the flop. You have nowhere near the equity to continue particularly with two left to act behind you including the preflop raiser.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

[ QUOTE ]
The UTG limp is ungood, unless you are absolutely certain you will get multiple limpers and no raise PF. I refer you to the PF section in SSHE regarding middle pocket pairs. IIRC, it says something to the effect that mid-pocket pairs either play well against a very small field (in which you are more likely win unimproved) or a large field for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG limp is fine in a 10-handed game at very low stakes. I think you're extremely likely to get the 3-4 overlimpers that you want, and raising will not as likely narrow the field.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, fold the flop. You have nowhere near the equity to continue particularly with two left to act behind you including the preflop raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. The set outs bring lots of straight redraws, so you're only looking at about 2 outs including your backdoor straight draw.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

Any reads?

As is, I'd fold the flop. You have a LP raiser (who doesn't seem pertubed that there are 3 in the pot already - so he's not likely to raise KJo but something reasonable), and SB donking into him on the flop. As there's not a lot of draws on this board to be had, what do you think SB is donking ? If it's an A, you're drawing to 2 outs. Same for a 9.

So, basically for you to continue with your hand, you're hoping that he's donking with air into 4 players. Is that likely? And even if that might be - what's the most likely thing people like to raise pf with? Limp pf with?

As played, I'm not sure why you folded the river. Did you seriously decide on the flop to draw to your backdoor-str8? Loosing strategy, for sure. If you've come so far, you probably have to call and hope he's doing this with 78s.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

I would need like 20-1 to even consider calling the river. After betting into a big field on that board there's no way he's good 10% of the time.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

Strange things happen at 5c/10c. Most of those will not even know what a "big field" is or why that board might look scary. I agree that this is a fold on the flop, but having come as far as the river, it's a sanity-call for me.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

I might agree, given the stakes, but river calls like this breed bad habits.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

[ QUOTE ]
I might agree, given the stakes, but river calls like this breed bad habits.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why we fold the flop. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

with 5 players to the flop, you essentially are playing your pocket 8's for set value. Plus, if you notice... SB isn't exactly the person who showed pf aggression, so I would expect to see SB have an A a good portion of the time. T8 is a possibility, as are 9x and such... all of which beat you at the moment (minus T8 but that hand is slim). In addition, you have Button behind you who showed aggression preflop. A good portion of the time if you call the SB donk-bet to you, you're going to be calling a raise from button as well. You therefore have awful position relative to the original raiser. You are only down to 3.5 outs... (8's, bdsd) so you're already verry thin on a call relative to pot odds. All these combined make for an unprofitable call on the flop. I just fold.

On the turn, you're down to ~1 out to 8's, ~3.5 outs to T's so around 4.5 outs total so you need about 9:1 on your call... you're only given 8:1, again, I'd fold here if I were to misclick the flop.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

Thanks for the replies. I see all of your points and I do agree with the flop fold.

Some of the comments directly relate to playing .05-.10.
Am I wasting my time at this level? My initial deposit was $68 which is now in the $52 level. I now my game needs allot of work so my plan is to stay at .05-.10 until I at least break even back to my starting level before moving up.
I have no problem increasing my BR to $150 to play .25-.50 but this my seam pointless if I am just going to lose more.

I assume that SSHE should apply to all lower limits.

Any advice on this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

Reread SSHE... it's directly applicable to 0.05/0.10 level. I personally find it hard to take that level seriously... but if you're losing money at that level then you are doing something waaay waaay wrong. That's not a downswing... that's just pure wrong play.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

I have not stopped reading that book. I should have mentioned that my play is improving. Most of my losses were during the first 2k hands. I have modified my play since then with better results. I do plan on staying at this level for now.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

I would have folded on the flop or turn, i dont think you played it bad but it was a small pot to be chasing in.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the replies. I see all of your points and I do agree with the flop fold.

Some of the comments directly relate to playing .05-.10.
Am I wasting my time at this level? My initial deposit was $68 which is now in the $52 level. I now my game needs allot of work so my plan is to stay at .05-.10 until I at least break even back to my starting level before moving up.
I have no problem increasing my BR to $150 to play .25-.50 but this my seam pointless if I am just going to lose more.

I assume that SSHE should apply to all lower limits.

Any advice on this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not wasting your time. One CAN beat this level. Very easily so. You should be at least 200BB in the green before moving up, and moving up means 10/20c. There another 200BB at least. Generally recommended roll for .25/.50: $200.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

i'd have folded on the flop. you've got just BARELY better than bottom pair. in a 5-handed pot, someone prolly has that A. Q9 or K9 is another frequently limped hand.

the turn doesn't change anything. now you have a GS to a non-nuts straight. if the T you need calls, somebody with KQ has you drawing dead. no way you're raising with 88 here.

Even with implied odds, this isn't a call on the turn. if you catch your near-miracle T, you still don't have the nuts.

my two cents: fold flop, fold turn, as played, the river fold is a no-brainer.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

Flexus: Stay at 5c/10c until you have made some money, played tens of thousands of hands and basically feel that all your opponents are complete retards.

SSHE applies to the very lowest limits online. It was written for live play where opponents at $2/$4 are beyond atrocious. Use and memorize the book. As you go through limits you will notice yourself how some things just don't apply any more.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

[ QUOTE ]
the turn doesn't change anything. now you have a GS to a non-nuts straight. if the T you need calls, somebody with KQ has you drawing dead. no way you're raising with 88 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

He isn't "drawing dead" against KQ, he's beating KQ right now. "Drawing dead" means being behind and not able to draw out.

Not trying to be an ass :-)

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

SSHE is still invaluable. The ideas from the General Gambling Concepts alone revolutionized how I saw poker when I first got it. The in depth description of the strengths, weaknesses and general properties of the PF categories/hands is still accurate, even though the appropriate situation to play certain hands comes up less often than they used to online. How to read the flop and analyze the strength of your hand. Pot odds. The book is still a must.

And then of course the tactics will still apply to the casinos well, so I don't think there's much information in that book you won't some day use. Friends that come to me interested in getting into poker, this is the first book I direct them towards.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

er, yeah, well spotted nichtz. meant just to say that his GS isn't worth banking on because if he DOES his his miracle T on the river, he's beat by KQ. hehehe, no such thing as 'drawing dead' when there are no cards to come! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

as for SSHE, it is a very good book. the PF sections are especailly useful because they are more than just a hand chart. they help when you're reading to take the training wheels off.

as a bit of advice, play in tempo. Playing in tempo is a HUGE leak plugger. in fact, if you do the hand quizzes at the end of SSHE and just try to stay in tempo, you get the correct answer in many of the trickier-seeming problems.

basically, just focus on
1) playing the strength of your cards.
2) not slowplaying anything
3) determining if your villains are passive and if they are VERY passive, then be very suspicious if they raise or 3bet. You should have notes on every player by the end of the session.
4) folding marginal hands on the flop unless you have an OESD or FD - don't bank on your backdoor draws or GS's.
5) betting for value
6) don't bluff.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

It's pretty safe to get rid of your hand on the flop.

Grab a piece of software called pokerstove, and monte carlo your hand vs a bunch of random hands. It's not that great.

When you consider that they'll have significantly better than random hands, it's horrid.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

I raise this preflop, but then again i probably have a better hand on postflop play...as it stands, with no reads fold the flop. In early position with two overcards and a raise behind your you're not getting enough to call down here. If you don't want to fold the flop, then fold the turn as you're not getting the 22-1 necessary to call a gutshot draw.

Re: Noob - 1st hand post - pocked 8\'s
 

I'll also go ahead and echo what was said about moving up. If you can't beat .05/.10, you're definitely not beating .10/.20, let alone .25/.50. As someone in another forum once said "At first I tried moving up in limits until people respected my raises. Pretty soon I ran out of limits."