KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

Hero should have a pretty normal tag/slag-omg-I-love-to-steal-on-co/bu-and-make-cbets image.

Villian is 25/9/1.9 and we have no real history IIRC.

Full Tilt Poker
$1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
4 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
BTN: $153.60
SB: $182.3
BB: $68.15
Hero (UTG): $206

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Khttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif ($3, 4 players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $7</font>, BTN calls $7, SB folds, BB folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> Ahttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($17, 2 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $14</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $28</font>, Hero???

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

call

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

Gotta love one word responses. Boost that post count, yo!

Seriously, what are you putting this guy on? I think the minraise is random enough that we may see a stupid FD or 6 sometimes. But even then I'm not sure what to do on most turns after calling this raise OOP.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

call and re-eval.
villans of this nature can do this with a wide range of hands including complete air. (donks like to bluff on paired flops) so i would call and re-evaluate.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

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Gotta love one word responses. Boost that post count, yo!


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when raising and folding is silly, you call and see what happens on the turn

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

Ok so assuming we call (which I think is good by the way,) what to we do on the turn when he bets 30, and what to we do when he bets 50?

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

This is usually not any kind of made hand/draw except 66. I call down and expect to see air most of the time. Bet the river if he checks behind on the turn.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

If villain does this is a lot, he can outplay us on turn. Calling defines our hand really well. I faced two similar situations yesterday and folded both on turn after facing aggression.

edit: Folded other on turn and other on river.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

Call, this is very often FD or 6 I think. However, both of them should be scared of a CR on the turn, so unless he has an A, I would expect him to check the turn. If he bets, fairly ez fold.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

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If villain does this is a lot, he can outplay us on turn. Calling defines our hand really well. I faced two similar situations yesterday and folded both on turn after facing aggression.



edit: Folded other on turn and other on river.

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i dont agree that with calling your hand is defined, from villain perspective, by calling you could have an A also, if the flush doesnt fill you can bet out and take the pot on the turn. if you get reraised, its an easy fold.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

Checking flop looks good.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

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Checking flop looks good.

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i like a check too here, i don't think raising does us much good here as a lot of hands will reraise us thinking we don't have much...also, even a call is likely from a lot of pairs...too much stuff to narrow down and we have a bad spot again on turn then...

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

I check the flop too.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

I'd def call the flop. Unsure about the plan for the rest of the hand - but I think with your image he could be doing this with any ace, a flush draw, and mid pockets, and I think there's a reasonable chance he doesn't 2barrel a flush draw and midpockets if you call and take a turn.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

For the flop checkers, a tightish guy cold called us - so before the flop action occurs, we have to assume that his most likely holdings are a good ace or mid pockets, maybe an SC. If we're not betting, we're missing a good chance to get value out of a hand like 99. Tons of turn cards can kill all action we'd get from the hands we're ahead of - so I do like betting this flop.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the flop checkers, a tightish guy cold called us - so before the flop action occurs, we have to assume that his most likely holdings are a good ace or mid pockets, maybe an SC. If we're not betting, we're missing a good chance to get value out of a hand like 99. Tons of turn cards can kill all action we'd get from the hands we're ahead of - so I do like betting this flop.

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i see ur point, but if we bet flop and he calls, what are our plans for the rest of the hand OOP?? i guess we lead turn then to avoid villian from getting too aggressive??

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

call

post count, yo.

I actually just call here, that is, if I bet the flop. Sure there is a flush draw but with a hand like KK we don't have to worry about anything here and I'd rather let villain take a little bit of control or even let it get checked through and try to let villain hit a 2nd best hand or take his PP too far.

I agree we can't fold to the min-raise. But. I also think it is an A a sig % of the time. And that's a bad spot to be in.

Thus I'd check, I generally want to play a smaller pot here. After raising pf and bet/calling the flop we are risking a large chunk of our stack. Unless we are folding to a turn bet, in which case I'd think about whether or not you want to call that flop bet, since unless it's a heart (actually, if it is we might need to call given the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) there are essentially no scare cards.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

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Checking flop looks good.

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i like a check too here, i don't think raising does us much good here as a lot of hands will reraise us thinking we don't have much...also, even a call is likely from a lot of pairs...too much stuff to narrow down and we have a bad spot again on turn then...

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Man checking this flop is sooo January '07. IMHO He'll call with 77-JJ here if we have a decent CB%. As played, I'd call raise and usually end up folding to his turn bet.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

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Checking flop looks good.

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i like a check too here, i don't think raising does us much good here as a lot of hands will reraise us thinking we don't have much...also, even a call is likely from a lot of pairs...too much stuff to narrow down and we have a bad spot again on turn then...

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Man checking this flop is sooo January '07. IMHO He'll call with 77-JJ here if we have a decent CB%. As played, I'd call raise and usually end up folding to his turn bet.

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Tell me why we can't extract value out of said hands by inducing bluffs on later streets. They don't have to call us, they can do the betting for us, too. Plus we keep the potsize manageable. We don't want to play a big pot here.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

I prefer checking flop here OOP, if we had position, betting flop would be better as we could manage pot size better on turn/river.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

what the [censored] bet the flop for value every single time

22-KK calls
a six calls
flush draws call
king high sometimes calls


...and an ace calls

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

Id raise here to find out for sure...its almost like hes trying too hard to play it like an ace...hes figuring you wouldnt have led out with one and are making a normal cbet...most of the time your hand is good here...raise to where it seems your pretty much pot committed then if he comes over the top you know your beat

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

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Id raise here to find out for sure...its almost like hes trying too hard to play it like an ace...hes figuring you wouldnt have led out with one and are making a normal cbet...most of the time your hand is good here...raise to where it seems your pretty much pot committed then if he comes over the top you know your beat

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Raising here is terrible.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

its better then calling...if you call hes taking you off it on turn pretty much every time...if you think he has the ace then fold...if you dont then put him to the test

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

You want him to fold worse hands like lower pairs?

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

call, c/c most bets on the turn.

Re: KK with Not One, but TWO Aces on the Flop! *Play along*!
 

[ QUOTE ]
what the [censored] bet the flop for value every single time

22-KK calls
a six calls
flush draws call
king high sometimes calls


...and an ace calls

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, once again..how many streets of value will you get if you take this approach? Does this defer much from the passive c/c approach? How many streets do you plan to valuebet? How do we react to a flopraise + turnbet? How do we deal with the increased potsize when we call the raise?

I'm trying to see the beeting side of things but above questions makes me think a passive approach is better. We can v-bet our hand on the river aswell, and we might even get more hand to call. We also have two pair protection. We are only afraid that they spike their 2-outer with 2 cards to come.