Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

As most of you know it looks like Bluff Media will be designated the official digital publisher and radio partner of the WSOP, WSOP Circuit, WSOP Europe and other WSOP events.

Do you think this can save Bluff magazine from what looks like an eventual demise? With so many pokersites pulling their magazine ads; with overall interest in poker going down; with the UIGEA causing an implosion of the poker boom....just how many poker magazines will be left?

As I have stated in previous posts I think Cardplayer will be the only poker magazine to survive. Cardplayer is the only QUALITY magazine out there. You can actually learn more and improve your game by reading it. Can the same be said for Bluff or All-In? I think not.

Even with WSOP I cannot see Bluff (or any of the few other remaining poker magazines for that matter) lasting beyond the end of the year. Without the poker boom to support them magazines like Bluff and All-In will probably vanish, leaving only Cardplayer.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

you are so [censored] retarded on so many levels. go away and never come back ever.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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you are so [censored] retarded on so many levels. go away and never come back ever.

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Oh yeah, and who gives a [censored]...

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

as someone who has done articles for both magazines i think they are both entertaining. bluff has focused more on internet play (although CP is adding more) and cardplayer has historically had more big name live pro writers.

you just seem to have some sort of agenda, imo.

i think there is room for both but i suspect they both won't be able to collect the huge advertising rates they are currently getting.

tc

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

although i've read much more cardplayer than bluff, bluff has tilley and laaks as regular contributers both of whose articles i've always found very enjoyable.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

When Card Player let Naked Poker buy the cover; they lost a lot of credibility in my book. That site is total crap.

Naked Poker Article

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

I may have an article in the next Bluff. It sounds as if he original poster does have an ax to grind. I wish all the magazines well.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

There was a post on another message board a little while ago that was VERY similar to the OP (Bluff sucks, Cardplayer is the only good magazine, ect) and the IP resolved to the Cardplayer offices.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

yeah, there's really no reason to even make posts like this. As AB pointed out, it looks like one of these companies is more worried than the other.

Oh yeah, and you have no idea how much money people pay to be associated with the WSOP.

A 4 year deal like the one Bluff signed with the WSOP is worth $15,000,000+ (as in over the 4 year term, whoever has this deal with Harrah's will make $15mil +), and I'm positive of that. That's probably why there's been a rash of posts and things in an effort to trash Bluff. This is pretty big business we're talking about.

The OP question should probably be the other way around.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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you just seem to have some sort of agenda, imo.

i think there is room for both but i suspect they both won't be able to collect the huge advertising rates they are currently getting.

tc

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Taylor - his agenda is only that he is a bad poster. He is 2+2's yellow journalist, he only starts new threads with alarmist statements. Problem is his statements are often based on truth, but 95% of the time its old news that we have already discussed.

As for the "huge advertising rates" the magazines are both collecting, that is an industry fallacy unfortunately. They primarily operate like an affiliate network, getting paid based on new member acquisition. Since neither magazine has courted national consumer advertisers they have no other major revenue stream besides foreign media (I am 98% positive they are both losing money on newsstand and subscriptions). At this stage its not a profitable solution, and I would expect that unless buyouts occur or reckless cash injections we will start to see one if not both titles fold within the next 2 years at the latest. I don't know about Bluff's investors, but I know Cardplayer had an injection of 3 mil just prior to the UGIA passing so they have small cushion to ride it out, sell to a foreign entity, or rethink their business model. Funny thing is letting BLUFF have the coverage at the WSOP might be a better move for Cardplayer in the long run than most people assume - it seems that it will keep them from wasting money on non-performing assets (unless there is licensing revenue from WSOP coverage that I am not privy to). There has been a few threads in books discussing the state of the poker magazine industry, feel free to search them if your interested.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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A 4 year deal like the one Bluff signed with the WSOP is worth $15,000,000+ (as in over the 4 year term, whoever has this deal with Harrah's will make $15mil +), and I'm positive of that.

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What makes you so positive? As currently shown the deal is a black hole for Bluff, the greatest value would in the transfer of the deal to a third party company. Of course we are still operating in a vacuum, time will tell if they actually find ways to monetize this deal.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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you just seem to have some sort of agenda, imo.

i think there is room for both but i suspect they both won't be able to collect the huge advertising rates they are currently getting.

tc

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Taylor - his agenda is only that he is a bad poster. He is 2+2's yellow journalist, he only starts new threads with alarmist statements. Problem is his statements are often based on truth, but 95% of the time its old news that we have already discussed.

As for the "huge advertising rates" the magazines are both collecting, that is an industry fallacy unfortunately. They primarily operate like an affiliate network, getting paid based on new member acquisition. Since neither magazine has courted national consumer advertisers they have no other major revenue stream besides foreign media (I am 98% positive they are both losing money on newsstand and subscriptions). At this stage its not a profitable solution, and I would expect that unless buyouts occur or reckless cash injections we will start to see one if not both titles fold within the next 2 years at the latest. I don't know about Bluff's investors, but I know Cardplayer had an injection of 3 mil just prior to the UGIA passing so they have small cushion to ride it out, sell to a foreign entity, or rethink their business model. Funny thing is letting BLUFF have the coverage at the WSOP might be a better move for Cardplayer in the long run than most people assume - it seems that it will keep them from wasting money on non-performing assets (unless there is licensing revenue from WSOP coverage that I am not privy to). There has been a few threads in books discussing the state of the poker magazine industry, feel free to search them if your interested.

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TT, I would really like to sit down and have lunch with you sometime, maybe at this years WSOP.

You are a respected poster on this forum and I don't think it's right for you to make posts such as this. Without being rude, you are almost 100% incorrect in every aspect of your post.

I can tell you a couple things as fact. One, Bluff has never taken a penny from affiliate deals. Two, CP didn't "let" anyone have the WSOP rights. CP was not even included in the debate, for many reasons.

I can discuss any of these things with you. Please understand what your saying is not correct at all.

If you think WSOP rights are "non-performing" assets, you're really, really off base.

$15mil+ is not off at all.

TT, do you know anyone in the poker business? If you did, it wouldn't be hard to get a better understanding of the value of things like live final tables via the web, chip count updates, etc.

If you knew any of that, you would have never made your first post.

PM if you're interested in a lunch.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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bluff has focused more on internet play (although CP is adding more)

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Agree. I love Bluff's focus on internet tournaments, and things like their top 10 internet tourney players. I think CP's recent inclusion of internet tourney reporting may be a direct result of Bluff's reporting. What is also interesting to me is that Party Poker still has huge ads in Bluff.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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bluff has focused more on internet play (although CP is adding more)

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Agree. I love Bluff's focus on internet tournaments, and things like their top 10 internet tourney players. I think CP's recent inclusion of internet tourney reporting may be a direct result of Bluff's reporting. What is also interesting to me is that Party Poker still has huge ads in bluff .

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You mean Poker has ads in CP....yeah, that's because Party doesn't pay for those ads. CP is a Party affiliate, they aren't getting paid for the ad anyway, so they might was well leave it in.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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I can tell you a couple things as fact. One, Bluff has never taken a penny from affiliate deals. Two, CP didn't "let" anyone have the WSOP rights. CP was not even included in the debate, for many reasons.

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Do you work for bluff? I'd be happy to come in and audit the advertising insertions, because you either don't know the industry or you just made a false statement. For a period of time for example Party Poker wouldn't place print advertising without performance incentives (aka affiliate coding, the deal may not be an affiliate deal as we know it). I have had meetings with the media agencies representing some of the poker rooms, perhaps you were not aware that I am a magazine publisher... I have far greater insight on this subject than you have guessed.

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I can discuss any of these things with you. Please understand what your saying is not correct at all.

[/ QUOTE ] I'd be happy to meet with you if you work for Bluff and your in a position of authority on the business such as Publisher, CFO, Associate Pub - etc. I don't want to meet with editors, thats a waste of both of our time.

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If you think WSOP rights are "non-performing" assets, you're really, really off base.

$15mil+ is not off at all.

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TT, do you know anyone in the poker business? If you did, it wouldn't be hard to get a better understanding of the value of things like live final tables via the web, chip count updates, etc.

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as I said in my post, "unless there is licensing revenue from WSOP coverage that I am not privy to", this is an example. It still comes across as a non-performing asset unless you can monetize the deal through advertising revenue . Problem is I highly doubt Bluff will be bringing in even 10 mil through direct WSOP association at 15k (give or take) a page. Of course as I stated I am not privy to the terms of the deal so it may be more lucrative than it currently seems, time will tell - there is no way for us armchair quarterbacks to know without being on the inside but if they only duplicate Cardplayer's offerings (I assume thats not the plan of course) then it would probably be a fiscal bust from the outside looking in.

PS: I never claimed CP didn't "let" anyone have the WSOP rights, re-read my statement - you took it out of context. I'm fully aware that WSOP was not happy with CP's performance last year, and was not considered.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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Cardplayer is the only QUALITY magazine out there. You can actually learn more and improve your game by reading it. Can the same be said for Bluff or All-In? I think not.

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this has to be spam, right?

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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I can tell you a couple things as fact. One, Bluff has never taken a penny from affiliate deals. Two, CP didn't "let" anyone have the WSOP rights. CP was not even included in the debate, for many reasons.

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Do you work for bluff? I'd be happy to come in and audit the advertising insertions, because you either don't know the industry or you just made a false statement. For a period of time for example Party Poker wouldn't place print advertising without performance incentives (aka affiliate coding, the deal may not be an affiliate deal as we know it). I have had meetings with the media agencies representing some of the poker rooms, perhaps you were not aware that I am a magazine publisher... I have far greater insight on this subject than you have guessed.

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I can discuss any of these things with you. Please understand what your saying is not correct at all.

[/ QUOTE ] I'd be happy to meet with you if you work for Bluff and your in a position of authority on the business such as Publisher, CFO, Associate Pub - etc. I don't want to meet with editors, thats a waste of both of our time.

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If you think WSOP rights are "non-performing" assets, you're really, really off base.

$15mil+ is not off at all.

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TT, do you know anyone in the poker business? If you did, it wouldn't be hard to get a better understanding of the value of things like live final tables via the web, chip count updates, etc.

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as I said in my post, "unless there is licensing revenue from WSOP coverage that I am not privy to", this is an example. It still comes across as a non-performing asset unless you can monetize the deal through advertising revenue . Problem is I highly doubt Bluff will be bringing in even 10 mil through direct WSOP association at 15k (give or take) a page. Of course as I stated I am not privy to the terms of the deal so it may be more lucrative than it currently seems, time will tell - there is no way for us armchair quarterbacks to know without being on the inside but if they only duplicate Cardplayer's offerings (I assume thats not the plan of course) then it would probably be a fiscal bust from the outside looking in.

PS: I never claimed CP didn't "let" anyone have the WSOP rights, re-read my statement - you took it out of context. I'm fully aware that WSOP was not happy with CP's performance last year, and was not considered.

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I realize you have publishing experience, but you don't understand this business, that is obvious.

I can promise you I know the industry and I did not make a false statement.

I think part of your problem is you're only seeing Bluff as a magazine and not as media company.

Bluff doesn't measure its revenue by ad page only. The magazine makes up half of the revenue, maybe.

This isn't stuff we need to discuss in a forum. We'll have a launch at the WSOP.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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. Cardplayer is the only QUALITY magazine out there. You can actually learn more and improve your game by reading it.

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This must surely be Mr. Shulman posting here.

I completely disagree with you. If you mean you enjoy more than half the pages in the magazine taken up with advertisements for California cardrooms, sure then cardplayer is the better magazine.

Bluff has fewer ads and better articles.

Cardplayer USED to have great strategy articles. Those are few and far between these days. The writers have changed alot and most of the ones they have these days just plain suck.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

My issue with CP is that it seems to focus mainly on tournaments...lately I've found Bluff to have some pretty decent articles about cash games...there is room for both hopefully.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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This isn't stuff we need to discuss in a forum. We'll have a launch at the WSOP.

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all (actually to anyone who cares about this topic, all 5 of us [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] )- yeahright and I have taken this conversation to PM, we are discussing meeting during the WSOP. I think we both agree that as a magazine by itself the WSOP deal cannot be monetized to provide equivalent revenue, but as yeahright has pointed out there are numerous side-media deals in place which are expected to produce positive fiscal results. As always I welcome change with Bluff and it's competitors, I want them to adjust to the new environment and survive the downswing in advertising revenue that has already started - my POV is really tough love. Taking yeahright's statements to me at face value without the oportunity to investigate further it looks like Bluff has found a major part of the solution.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

My own experience with Bluff Magazine has made me respect their dignity, courtesy, and professionalism. I sent them a query letter about a few article ideas similar to the Poker History series I have posted here. They answered quickly and told me what they wanted. I have submitted two articles and hope they will be in the next two issues of Bluff Magazine. I have written Card Player numberous times and they never answer. I have written for Texas Monthly a couple of times. I write them and they do not answer. Bluff runs their operation as if they were writer-friendly professionals. Card Player tells you the excruiating details of certain pros lives..who had a milkshake or a haircut or missed one flush draw. If Bluff publishes three articles of mine, I'll get a Bluff tattoo.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

Bluff has comped me booze. Cardplayer never has.

Bluff4life yo

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

Cardplayer is a waste of trees. I won't even read the POS "magazine" when I'm board out of my mind waiting for a seat. Bluff isn't exactly enthralling but at least it has some redeeming entertainment value. I will skim through the rag when waiting for a seat. Sometimes I even enjoy an article or two.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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Cardplayer is the only QUALITY magazine out there. You can actually learn more and improve your game by reading it. Can the same be said for Bluff or All-In? I think not.



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don't read much of All-In but my opinions of Cardplayer and Bluff are pretty much the opposite of yours.

hope they all survive though.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

Johnny Hughes:

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I may have an article in the next Bluff.

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sweet!

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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My issue with CP is that it seems to focus mainly on tournaments...lately I've found Bluff to have some pretty decent articles about cash games...there is room for both hopefully.

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I really hope both survive. Having them on newsstands keeps the game in front of the public. A few years ago, bodybuilding was the rage and there were as many mags on it as there have been during the poker boom. A few still survive. I hope the same will happen for Bluff and CP.

A few more non-poker advertisers would help.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

Given the perceived youth trend of poker players and the addictive personality traits of many gamblers, I think these poker magazines are a natural fit for alcohol-related ads as well as pay-per-view fights (boxing, WWE, UFC, etc.)

And do more than 20 or 30 magazines actually make money on newsstand sales?

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

CP and Bluff are both better than All-in. I don't even read that one anymore. I just bring it to the cardroom and leave it in the lobby for someone else to read. Can't wait for my All-in subscription to end...

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

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Given the perceived youth trend of poker players and the addictive personality traits of many gamblers, I think these poker magazines are a natural fit for alcohol-related ads as well as pay-per-view fights (boxing, WWE, UFC , etc.)


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Very good observation. By July of this year, Bluff will actually have it's 3rd magazine hit the news stands. You can go to any Barnes & Noble, etc and already see ------ (i don't want to get banned for spamming). A 3rd mag will come out this summer.

Will the loss of the WSOP rights sink CardPlayer?
 

The converse query could be posed with equal idiocy.

Personally, I want to see how little coverage CardPlayer can bring itself to give to the WSOP this year.

I wish Bluff well.

Re: Will the loss of the WSOP rights sink CardPlayer?
 

I can't remember the other magazine, (Player? Poker Pro?, something like that), anyway, that and All-In I can see closing up shop, but I would imagine that CP and Bluff are here for the long term.

Re: Will the loss of the WSOP rights sink CardPlayer?
 

How long did "Top Pair" last ?

Re: Will the loss of the WSOP rights sink CardPlayer?
 

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How long did "Top Pair" last ?

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Last I heard, its still published online as a PDF.

Re: Will the loss of the WSOP rights sink CardPlayer?
 

Im taking a job with cardplayer starting in April. To be quite honest I hope both survive and push each other to improve their respective products.

Re: Will the loss of the WSOP rights sink CardPlayer?
 

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Im taking a job with cardplayer starting in April. To be quite honest I hope both survive and push each other to improve their respective products.

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Did you get the job through Craigslist?

Btw, maybe I missed it but I don't think anyone has mentioned the anonymous comment someone from CardPlayer, allegedly, posted over at ThePokerBiz.com, ridiculing the Bluff deal and calling the WSOP mediocre at best.

Here's what it said in its entirety:

“Awarded?” Buying an overpriced package from the cash hungry WSOP is hardly a coup. More realistically the folks at Bluff have bitten off more than they can chew. Would not be surprised if the fees bankrupt them. Bluff is mediocre at best, as is the WSOP, and the whole thing looks like an impending slow motion train wreck.”

link

I'd call it sophomoric (and poetic at times) but that's like my ass telling my feet they smell. So I'll let someone else call it out for what it is.

I should point out that we have a page or two in Bluff each month that they pay us mad money for, if mad money meant free chicken and beer, and that yes I hope both survive as competition is good and CardPlayer does have some quality people over there. I would also say that with online forums, blogs, videos, etc., magazines these days are really only good for reading on airplanes or on the crapper and ironically those are pretty much the two places we get our pages done for Bluff.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

I enjoy reading BLUFF

Can't wait for the correspondence from the WSOP

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

They are both good magazines. I am sure they will both survive and prosper. In the last issue, Bluff Magazine named TwoPlusTwo as the best poker forum. That shows they are pretty smart going in.

It is hard for me to believe that anyone high up at Card Player was involved in any of the negative and jealous posts that started this.

These two magazines compete but they also help each other with cross-traffic. They are next to each other on news stands. People look at both of [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]them and may buy both. I always read both. Both magazines are good for poker. Bluff is huge. There is a Bluff, Bluff/Europe, Bluff/Australia, Bluff/Radio, and the Internet operations. I don't know if they give them away in poker rooms.

Re: Can the WSOP Save Bluff Magazine?
 

Anyone ever read Poker Pro?