Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

Got an email today from amazon.com about this book by Carl Varrone.

"But when playing online, rampant cheating and endless numbers of bad players make the luck factor the deciding factor. This book will let you understand the two different games being played, comparing live play to online play. What No One Else Is Saying About Online Poker highlights how the internet has changed the game into a free for all that could bring even the most experienced professional poker player to his knees, begging for mercy."

This alone made me think the book is probably a joke. Still, interested if anyone has heard anything.

Linky

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

i do see alot more weird things happen on online poker then live poker. im not sure if the poker sites rigg there software to help there rake somehow.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

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i do see alot more weird things happen on online poker then live poker. im not sure if the poker sites rigg there software to help there rake somehow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Online poker is more like a video game than actual poker.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
But when playing online, rampant cheating and endless numbers of bad players make the luck factor the deciding factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

The internet sites do NOT cheat the players. They don't have to. They have the rake. Why would they cheat when they're guaranteed 5 % of all the action?

The only possible cheating players can do is collution. It's easily done, but also easily detected. And the sites have a vested interest in rooting it out.

Playing poker vs bad players requiors a differant skill set than playing vs good players. However, a skilled player can adjust his game and come out a long term winner vs bad players. This was the whole point behing Small Stakes Hold'em.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But when playing online, rampant cheating and endless numbers of bad players make the luck factor the deciding factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

The internet sites do NOT cheat the players. They don't have to. They have the rake. Why would they cheat when they're guaranteed 5 % of all the action?

The only possible cheating players can do is collution. It's easily done, but also easily detected. And the sites have a vested interest in rooting it out.

Playing poker vs bad players requiors a differant skill set than playing vs good players. However, a skilled player can adjust his game and come out a long term winner vs bad players. This was the whole point behing Small Stakes Hold'em.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying they do it, but they also have the power to manipulate pocket and community cards to create larger pots and more rake.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
i do see alot more weird things happen on online poker then live poker. im not sure if the poker sites rigg there software to help there rake somehow.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's all perception. More wierd things happen because more hands are played per hour.

Playing B&M, you'll get delt ~20 hands an hour. Even if you play 40 hours a week, you might hit a straight flush maybe once a year.

Four-tabling on-line you can get delt nearly 200 hands an hour. At that rate you'll hit full houses about once an hour and a straight flush maybe once a month.

The sites don't cheat the players because they don't NEED to. They have the rake. Thety make their 5 % no matter who wins the pots. Cheating players would just kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
The internet sites do NOT cheat the players. They don't have to. They have the rake. Why would they cheat when they're guaranteed 5 % of all the action?


[/ QUOTE ]

This is like saying why would casinos ever cheat? Why would casinos skim profits(which they have done before)?

I agree that it'd be stupid, but anything is possible. Especially in an unregulated industry that has a history of drawing the kind of element that would cheat. It's a potential goldmine for any syndicate.

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The sites don't cheat the players because they don't NEED to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Enron didn't need to cheat it's customers either.


b

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

well the only reason why i think online is rigged a litle is they want to keep bad players from losing too much money at one time so they kinda of give them breaks were they can win a little by catching lucky cards so that they dont get to discouraged and it keeps them playing for alot longer then they would if they kept busting out and having to re deposit money all the time.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying they do it, but they also have the power to manipulate pocket and community cards to create larger pots and more rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is foolishness, and borders on flagrent trolling.

You do realise that even on-line casinos are regulated, don't you? Kahnawake Gaming Commission?

And the cards are shuffled by an RNG. RNG is a well documented area of mathmatics. On-line casinos go to great lengths to demonstrate that their shuffles are, in fact, random. The claim you just made states that their shuffles are NOT random, and that they minipulate the cards to increase pot size, and thus rake.

So, if you're running an on-line casino and raking pots to the tune of 2 million dollars a day, would you risk having your business shut down and all your customers abandon you just so you could rake 2.3 million a day?

2 million at virtually no risk vs 2.3 million with MAJOR risk of ruin?

Not just a bad business decition, but if you're CEO of a publicly traded company (and many of the on-line casinos are publicly traded) then you risk JAIL for malfeasence.

They don't cheat. They don't HAVE to cheat. And a well run, fair casino is nearly a risk-free business. A casino, B&M or on-line, is as close to you can get to having a lisence to print money. And no corporation that runs a casino will be willing to screw up such a sweet-heart deal for an extra punkass million or two a day.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

I'm done. If you turn a blind eye to reason and logic, then I wish you well with your charms, totems and superstitions.

I leave this thread in the hands of those wiht no knowledge of economics. Do with it what you will.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying they do it, but they also have the power to manipulate pocket and community cards to create larger pots and more rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is foolishness, and borders on flagrent trolling.

You do realise that even on-line casinos are regulated, don't you? Kahnawake Gaming Commission?

And the cards are shuffled by an RNG. RNG is a well documented area of mathmatics. On-line casinos go to great lengths to demonstrate that their shuffles are, in fact, random. The claim you just made states that their shuffles are NOT random, and that they minipulate the cards to increase pot size, and thus rake.

So, if you're running an on-line casino and raking pots to the tune of 2 million dollars a day, would you risk having your business shut down and all your customers abandon you just so you could rake 2.3 million a day?

2 million at virtually no risk vs 2.3 million with MAJOR risk of ruin?

Not just a bad business decition, but if you're CEO of a publicly traded company (and many of the on-line casinos are publicly traded) then you risk JAIL for malfeasence.

They don't cheat. They don't HAVE to cheat. And a well run, fair casino is nearly a risk-free business. A casino, B&M or on-line, is as close to you can get to having a lisence to print money. And no corporation that runs a casino will be willing to screw up such a sweet-heart deal for an extra punkass million or two a day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trolling? Come on, Phydaux. You know better than that.

I did not say they do it, I said they have the power to do it.

You can say all you want about RNG and the hands per hour, but the fact remains that I (and many others) have seen some things happen in online poker that I have never seen in a live game.

Bernie's analysis is spot on.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

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the fact remains that I (and many others) have seen some things happen in online poker that I have never seen in a live game.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I have seen a chicken beat a man at tic-tac-toe. Therefore, chickens are smarter than humans, correct?

No. Do not succumb to the fallacy of anecdotal evidence.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

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the fact remains that I (and many others) have seen some things happen in online poker that I have never seen in a live game.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I have seen a chicken beat a man at tic-tac-toe. Therefore, chickens are smarter than humans, correct?

No. Do not succumb to the fallacy of anecdotal evidence.

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Stop taking this personally and stop taking these arguments to extremes.

I, personally, prefer live play because I don't have to worry about playing against bots or people using Poker Tracker or other software to make their decisions for them.

You can give me all the evidence you have to the contrary, but I will always view online poker as being much more of a crapshoot than live poker.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

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[ QUOTE ]
the fact remains that I (and many others) have seen some things happen in online poker that I have never seen in a live game.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I have seen a chicken beat a man at tic-tac-toe. Therefore, chickens are smarter than humans, correct?

No. Do not succumb to the fallacy of anecdotal evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about the fact of past misconduct in the gambling industry making it a valid possibility? And yes, there is concrete evidence of that.

b

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

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I'm done. If you turn a blind eye to reason and logic, then I wish you well with your charms, totems and superstitions.

I leave this thread in the hands of those wiht no knowledge of economics. Do with it what you will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's turning a blind eye?

How about you study a bit of the history of gambling before saying something like this is an impossibility. Feel free to come back when you gain some knowledge in that department. Especially if you think that the only ones that would do this are ones you think 'need' to do it. Whatta joke. The world isn't all rainbows and sugarplums.

Btw...If an online site shut down tomorrow, they're under no legal obligation to pay off anyone who had money in their accounts. Example? Dutch Boyd.

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You do realise that even on-line casinos are regulated, don't you? Kahnawake Gaming Commission?

[/ QUOTE ]

Have they ever had a documented incident with any online site yet that they've penalized in any way? Just wondering. But then I'm guessing every site is squeeky clean. Just like every casino in Vegas was. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

b

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

this is how i feel abpit online cheating, first of all if some one has a 10 billion dollar racket, and ther is a possibiltity for them to get and extra 2 billion by cheating and the risk is relatively small they will do it, or they will spend another 10 billion to firgure out how to do it. your talking abot online computer programs, some one hqad to develope and design the system to create the so called random dealings of the card right? dont you thing there is a person out there who can firgure out how to minipulate that same system to their advantage. you dont think there is some 15 year old computer geek ou there who has already firgured out how to cheat at online poker? you have teenagers tapping into the pentagon defense sytems or into the finacial records of major banks and corporations, but you think online poker is safe and legit? if you believe that come and buy my bridge ill give it to you for half price. i would never play online poker for money to many weird things going on. even when you play for fake chips weird stuff happens, and its not because of the quantity of the hands.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

I would say that if you seen a chicken beat a man in tic tac toe, you and the man who got beat by the chicken need to cop your drugs from another dealer.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

This thread has gone from X-Files to The Smoking Gun. Next, you'll be denying the moon landings.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

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This thread has gone from X-Files to The Smoking Gun. Next, you'll be denying the moon landings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I noticed that you didn't refute any of my points.

I guess those never happened either.

But then it's tough to argue hypothetical over proven fact. No matter how condescending your hypothetical argument is.

b

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

who regulates poker sites? if its these little countries they opertate from then theres no hope because there goverements want a piece of there pie and they wont stop the sites if they are bringing in good money.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

bernie,

Do dishonest people exist. Of course they do. I'm not denying the existence of dishonest people. I acknowledge that fact.

However, do on-line casinos have a huge incentive to run an honest business, and a huge disincentive to run a dishonest business? Yes, and I don't see you acknowledging that fact.

The point I am trying to make is that the casino's incentive to run an honest business and their disincentive to run a dishonest business together will overcome all the the most greedy or most stupid corporate executive's desire to run their company dishonestly for higher short term gain. In fact, you have to be both very greedy and very stupid to run a publicly traded business that way.

Did Enron's corporate officers loot the company for their own personal gain? Yes. Those men are now in disgrace, and will never serve as a corporate officer in a publicly traded corporation ever again. All their education, years of experience and hard work are pissedaway and they will never be trusted with other people's money ever again.

Also, their company is in disgrace. No one will ever trust Enron or invest their money with that company again. It is in ruins, unable to make a profit. And because Enron was publicly traded, the corporate officers are both criminally and civilly libel.

You can hold up Enron and perhaps 3-4 other Fortune 100 companies as anecdotal evidence of corporate greed and malfeasence. This is the fallacy of anecdotal evidence - It ignores the other 95% of well-run, profitable Fortune 100 compaines.

Enron and it's officers serve as a cautionary tale to all the greedy capitalist corporate officers in the other companies, reminding them that there is more long term profit available for everyone if they just run the company honestly.

You point to examples of corruption in B&M casinos as evidence of likely corruption at on-line casinos. This is not a like-to-like comparison. In a B&M casino you have possible collusion with dealers, players marking cards and other practices that are just not possible in an on-line casino.

Yes, in days past casinos skimmed the profits and turned them over to disreputable figures. Recall that in those days many if not most casinos were family owned. Binion's Casino was owned by the Binion's family. And in family ownership, or any private ownership, you are able to play things much closer to the vest, and that is a breading ground for corruption.

Most casinos today, B&M or on-line, are corporate-owned. Remember, those corporations are run by greedy capitalist corporate officers. Those greedy capitalist corporate officers crave oversight and regulation because oversight and regulation helps eliminate corruption. And corruption is harmful to long-term profits.

REMEMBER - Greedy capitalist corporate officers! It's always all about the PROFIT!!! Always! And there is ALWAYS more long term profit in an honest, well run company.

It's their greed that keeps them honest. That's why Ayn Rand said "Greed is a virtue."

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

Oops, I just started a thread on this in internet gambling....

Anyway, my intuition tells me this book is more about the rampant cheating that happens between rings of colluders than anything else. I noticed some back and forth about the whole rigged notion, and I'm not willing to touch that one.

However, I can't find flaw with the idea that rings of colluding players who stay one step ahead of the sites are making the game tougher and tougher to beat.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

i know of some guys who use different screen names who play on the same site

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

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my intuition tells me this book is more about the rampant cheating that happens between rings of colluders than anything else.

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i know of some guys who use different screen names who play on the same site

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Again, easily done but also easily detected and eliminated. Most big sites have active measures that root this out.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

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This is like saying why would casinos ever cheat? Why would casinos skim profits(which they have done before)?

b

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Do you even understand what skimming is? The other poster asked why an online casino would cheat it's customers when it's guarenteed a rake. Skimming is individuals stealing from the casino, not from the casino's customers. Your argument makes no sense.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

[ QUOTE ]
who regulates poker sites? if its these little countries they opertate from then theres no hope because there goverements want a piece of there pie and they wont stop the sites if they are bringing in good money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many of these sites are regulated by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. This falls under the "better than nothing" heading when it comes to regulation, but hey, at least it's something.

The governments of "these little countries they opertate from" (in the case of Poker Stars it's The Isle of Man) get their taste via legal taxation of corporate profits. Again, it's in the interest of these countries for the games to be run fair and square so that the on-line casinos are around for a long time, and the gready capitalist corporate executives earn lots of profit for them to tax away.

IIRC, Poker Stars reported profits of $US 600M in 2006. That's about 2 mil a day, all from the rake we pay.

I don't know how the taxes are structured on The Isle of Man, but if it's anything like the US they would take ~20-30% of that, or 180 mil.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

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However, do on-line casinos have a huge incentive to run an honest business, and a huge disincentive to run a dishonest business? Yes, and I don't see you acknowledging that fact.

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Where did I deny that's a possibility? Please quote it. You, however, have stated that it's basically unfathomable the other way. Which is totally wrong. It's very possible.

Of course that's a fact. Many do, and should do, this. The problem is you're saying everyone is running them legit. You have no real way of knowing that for sure. You're acting like it's black and white. Far from it. You have no idea who's fingers might be in some of the pies on those sites.

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Did Enron's corporate officers loot the company for their own personal gain? Yes. Those men are now in disgrace, and will never serve as a corporate officer in a publicly traded corporation ever again. All their education, years of experience and hard work are pissedaway and they will never be trusted with other people's money ever again.

Also, their company is in disgrace. No one will ever trust Enron or invest their money with that company again. It is in ruins, unable to make a profit. And because Enron was publicly traded, the corporate officers are both criminally and civilly libel.

[/ QUOTE ]

There really isn't any recourse, legally, if an online site screws you. Dutch Boyd comes to mind again.

As far as I know, no site has given full consent to thoroughly look at their whole program and how it runs. Kawawhatever seems to farm that out to another place. Just looking at an RNG isn't really that much. It is very easy to jack around in a comp program and make something very subtle. That's what you may be missing. It doesn't have to be anything major and noticeable. Just a little subtlety can generate quite a bit of cash. Especially when you're talking about the volume of hands they're getting.

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You point to examples of corruption in B&M casinos as evidence of likely corruption at on-line casinos. This is not a like-to-like comparison. In a B&M casino you have possible collusion with dealers, players marking cards and other practices that are just not possible in an on-line casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is alot more open ground for cheating in an online casino. There just aren't that many levels watching everything. You're actually going to say that stuff can't be done? Both internally(program-wise) or on a table? Please. That's just an absolutely ridiculous statement.

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Most casinos today, B&M or on-line, are corporate-owned. Remember, those corporations are run by greedy capitalist corporate officers. Those greedy capitalist corporate officers crave oversight and regulation because oversight and regulation helps eliminate corruption. And corruption is harmful to long-term profits

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, feel free to tell that to the members of the Teamsters union that helped fund some of those casinos(through their pension funds) w/o even asking their members.

I looked at the Kawa-whatever site and how they regulate it. It's a joke. It's a feel-good deal that tries and makes everyone feel safe about online sites. The only thing I could figure if someone paid a fine was that if they didn't, they wouldn't be part of their group. Kind of like the BBB. Big whoop. One should still be aware that anything is possible in that sort of medium.

There still isn't really any recourse or anything they do if they find anything and the site doesn't want to pay anything. Again, I saw no claim on there of any wrongdoing of anyone. Figure in all this time, there'd be at least one.

To say it's impossible just because you wouldn't do it(even for obvious reasons which I agree with) is wrong. You're looking at the whole situation with blinders on. That's not the same as saying all sites are bad or anything like that, which is what you seem to think I'm implying. It's not. I'm saying be aware of the possibilities. They are very real.

b

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is like saying why would casinos ever cheat? Why would casinos skim profits(which they have done before)?

b

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Do you even understand what skimming is? The other poster asked why an online casino would cheat it's customers when it's guarenteed a rake. Skimming is individuals stealing from the casino, not from the casino's customers. Your argument makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes sense in regards to a casino already making tons of money for it's owners, yet the owners want a little more cut. Why isn't the initial amount good enough? Why wouldn't they just be satisfied with making $x amount instead of trying to hide some? See how it fits?

Makes perfect sense with the concept we're talking about. The mentality of why someone would want more when what they're making is more than enough.

b

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

Phydaux,

Are you saying that it's unlikely for an online pokersite to engage in activities that cheat their customers?

Why? Because they have too much to lose? History is full of companies, governments and individuals that weren't satisfied with their earnings or powerbase. I know that every internet marketer that works for the sites or affiliates likes to jump on these "rigged" posts, but let's be realistic in the possibility of some shady practices.

Sorry, but it's naive to believe 100% that sites are legit, just as it's paranoid to believe 100% that they are.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

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You do realise that even on-line casinos are regulated, don't you? Kahnawake Gaming Commission?

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From their website:

"The Kahnawake Gaming Commission, established on 10 Ohiarí:ha/June 1996 pursuant to the provisions of the Kahnawake Gaming Law, MCR No. 26 / 1996-97, is presently comprised of three members appointed by the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake: Alan Goodleaf (Chairperson), John K. Diabo, and David Montour.

The Commission is empowered to regulate and control gaming and gaming related activities conducted within and from the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake in accordance with the highest principles of honesty and integrity."

Three people from an Indian reservation in Canada.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

They'll be regulated in UK soon.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You do realise that even on-line casinos are regulated, don't you? Kahnawake Gaming Commission?

[/ QUOTE ]

From their website:

"The Kahnawake Gaming Commission, established on 10 Ohiarí:ha/June 1996 pursuant to the provisions of the Kahnawake Gaming Law, MCR No. 26 / 1996-97, is presently comprised of three members appointed by the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake: Alan Goodleaf (Chairperson), John K. Diabo, and David Montour.

The Commission is empowered to regulate and control gaming and gaming related activities conducted within and from the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake in accordance with the highest principles of honesty and integrity."

Three people from an Indian reservation in Canada.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reminds me of something. When I was in floorcovering there were hackers. The guys that took shortcuts on jobs and had the rep of doing shoddy work.

One well known home improvement store wanted to have and use their own installers so they needed someone to run that part. Project managing, scheduling, problem solving. Basically, quality control. Who were the guys? 2 of the (local)industries biggest hackers. I wouldn't have let those guys in my house to install anything much less give me any consultation.

Point is, you never know who's running what. Especially the customers don't know any better but are basically going on blind faith since it's under a corporate(or official sounding) name. But at least in the instance above, the corporation can be held, legally, directly liable for most that might happen.

b

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

For more on this there is another thread. That thread has been locked to keep the discussion in one place, this thread.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
well the only reason why i think online is rigged a litle is they want to keep bad players from losing too much money at one time so they kinda of give them breaks were they can win a little by catching lucky cards so that they dont get to discouraged and it keeps them playing for alot longer then they would if they kept busting out and having to re deposit money all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your telling me you think someone has the power of labeling a player as a bad one and im gonna give him a straight to crack this guys aces this hand so he doesn't lose too much money. I don't know if I can agree with that. Bad streaks come, and more hands per hour in internet poker equals more of these streaks.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying they do it, but they also have the power to manipulate pocket and community cards to create larger pots and more rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is foolishness, and borders on flagrent trolling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're being idiotic. His statement is obviously correct, as written.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet poker\"
 

People simply want an excuse for why they lose at poker, other than their own play.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

[ QUOTE ]
People simply want an excuse for why they lose at poker, other than their own play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's it. I'm a horrible player so I make up conspiracy theories about why I lose. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Has anyone (besides jeffnc) noticed that I never said the online poker sites actually cheat, rather that they have the power if they want to.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

Read the book and found it very educational. He never said sites are cheating but explains why their spending millions trying to detect it. It wasn't a book trying to teach you how to play poker but certainly would help you to understand what you should be playing online. Not a bad book at all and was worth the read.

Re: Anyone heard anything: \"What no one is saying about internet pok
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying they do it, but they also have the power to manipulate pocket and community cards to create larger pots and more rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't manipulating hole cards create bigger one-time pots thus creating less rake overall? Fish only have so much money to gamble. If they lose it in a few hands, instead of hundreds of hands, there are fewer dollars being wagered (in the sense that the same $100 can be wagered many times in a poker game).

Wouldn't card fixing be killing the Golden Goose?