100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

I don't really do this every month. Would be sweet if someone did. I don't get c/r'd enough.

Villain is Brad Booth. He's very aggro, especially when you've shown weakness or he can represent a big hand. He can call down light.

I hope you guys find this hand as interesting as I do.

Effective Stacks ~20k

I'm dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I raise to 600, he calls.

Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
check, check

Turn 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Brad checks, I bet $1000 into $1200, he calls

River 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Brad checks, I bet $3000 into $3400, he instashoves ~15k more, I............

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

ill be the first to admit this is over my head, but ill give it a shot. This is a really tough spot though. Your hand is so perfectly placed on the borderline of call/fold. He could be repping spades from missed hearts, could have hit spades, could have a lot of two pair combos, sets.. how has the session been played so far? any big hands or just typical uber aggro for both of u?

i cant pretend to have a defenitive answer for you, but good post should be an interesting thread

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

P.S do u think brad expects u to call with a mediocre/good king here?

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

how often do you check back flush draws on the flop? a king? turn and river are such that you probably didn't make nines up. so he probably thinks you're either bluffing or making a thinnish value bet, though that could be bad since he'll be comfortable check-shoving a wider range for value. but he has a spewy reputation so i think you should probably just call and hope he's got a worse 9 or a 6, or was just outright floating the turn with like an ace or weak draw. sick if he flips J9 though

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

I was just talking about this hand over aim with Jman(ZOMG! huge brag)
So I'm posting our convo

[02:31] eagleskickass99: the brad booth one is really intersting..... from how you play I'm guessing he doesn't think you have a flush/pair of kings here
[02:31] eagleskickass99: I mean the only hand you have there that is huge is 44.
[02:31] Jman: yeah
[02:31] Jman: zactly
[02:32] Jman: i think its super cool hand
[02:32] Jman: my riv bet is so thin
[02:32] eagleskickass99: I'm not sure if I like the river bet...
[02:32] Jman: i dunno
[02:32] Jman: i think i like
[02:32] Jman: bc
[02:32] Jman: i think he has 1 pair a lot
[02:32] Jman: and not K
[02:32] Jman: or TT+
[02:33] Jman: cant have TT+
[02:33] Jman: and like
[02:33] Jman: he leads FD on turn usually
[02:33] eagleskickass99: ya I know... but since he knows you usually bet a fd on the flop he can value shove non flush hands
[02:34] Jman: exactly
[02:34] Jman: that scurred me
[02:34] Jman: but
[02:34] Jman: like
[02:34] Jman: i dunno
[02:34] Jman: he cant have less than a set, for val
[02:34] Jman: and also, what set c/c turn?
[02:34] eagleskickass99: ya true also... he
[02:34] eagleskickass99: well 99 he'd prob 3bet right
[02:35] Jman: yeah i think
[02:35] eagleskickass99: and I think 66/44 he'd try and get more in on the turn
[02:35] Jman: but he can't check call turn with 99 on that drawy a board
[02:35] eagleskickass99: exactly
[02:35] Jman: i think 2pr+ c/r turn
[02:35] Jman: so like...
[02:35] Jman: 22 makes sense
[02:36] Jman: 53s, but i expect a bet or c/r from that too
[02:36] eagleskickass99: ya 22 does makes sense..... I was about to say.... what about 53
[02:36] Jman: AsXs kinda possible
[02:36] Jman: calls turn for deception/might be good/implied odds
[02:36] Jman: might be good = A hi might be good
[02:37] eagleskickass99: ya I think he could shove two pair for value on the river.... but he never gets there with good enough two pair
[02:37] Jman: K2dd or K2cc?
[02:38] Jman: mayyybe
[02:38] Jman: ]didnt think of that
[02:38] eagleskickass99: ya maybe but that's it
[02:38] eagleskickass99: i mean k9/69/64 seem impossible
[02:38] eagleskickass99: he seems to instashove a lot
[02:39] eagleskickass99: but the last time i saw him instashove fwiw was when you had the ac on a 4c paired board and you bet and he instashove trips
[02:39] Jman: yeah.. he's kind of a monkey
[02:39] Jman: hey.. i g2g play Wii

So Jman's thought process plus even internet celebrities play nintendo Wii.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

I've played with Brad a decent amount, and he def loves to make big moves like this with a wide range. I think your hand is good a fair amount of the time, but I also think he's capable of doing this with K2 and maybe weaker 2 pair hands. on balance I think the correct answer is to call sometimes, fold sometimes, but it's not a pretty spot and that's why Brad is very tough to play against.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

The only flushdraw that C/C turn seems to be As-xs and Ks-xs.

if he knows that you cant have a flush here I kinda like the bet and would call. I wonder though... do you really have to fight like this in a pot? its amazing and makes me think that I never ever can be the best NL player. I hope some highstakes players contribute to this thread but i think that is asking too much...

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]

[02:34] Jman: he cant have less than a set, for val

[/ QUOTE ]


why can't he have a K? if i'm booth i'm thinking K7 is the nuts, and i don't think it's a given that wouldn't c/c the turn with it. i'd say it's strong enough on the turn to be worthy of a slowplay considering a lot of your range is 9's and QQ-TT. and he can't really make a sub-allin c/r with K7 since he's getting a sick price vs a shove

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
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[02:34] Jman: he cant have less than a set, for val

[/ QUOTE ]


why can't he have a K? if i'm booth i'm thinking K7 is the nuts, and i don't think it's a given that wouldn't c/c the turn with it. i'd say it's strong enough on the turn to be worthy of a slowplay considering a lot of your range is 9's and QQ-TT. and he can't really make a sub-allin c/r with K7 since he's getting a sick price vs a shove

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wrong to say less than a set, and I corrected myself later in the conversation kinda.

But I really really doubt he can make this play with less than two pair (for val). I can definitely have a K here, as well as 64, a 44 22 or a flush. I check a flushdraw here maybe 10% of the time on flop.

I really think Booth would lead turn with a K most of the time. He's aggro enough and I'm loose enough that he can expect to get paid on two streets by most pairs.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
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[02:34] Jman: he cant have less than a set, for val

[/ QUOTE ]


why can't he have a K? if i'm booth i'm thinking K7 is the nuts, and i don't think it's a given that wouldn't c/c the turn with it. i'd say it's strong enough on the turn to be worthy of a slowplay considering a lot of your range is 9's and QQ-TT. and he can't really make a sub-allin c/r with K7 since he's getting a sick price vs a shove

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wrong to say less than a set, and I corrected myself later in the conversation kinda.

But I really really doubt he can make this play with less than two pair (for val). I can definitely have a K here, as well as 64, a 44 22 or a flush. I check a flushdraw here maybe 10% of the time on flop.

I really think Booth would lead turn with a K most of the time. He's aggro enough and I'm loose enough that he can expect to get paid on two streets by most pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]


then i think you can confidently call. his range if better hands is narrow and it looks like a really good bluffing spot for a bluffy player, and he probably leads turn/riv with most better nines

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

here are my thoughts:

1.)in your mind you are value betting the river not bluffing (this is key).

2.)villian is good and capable of making big plays (this is key).

3.)good tricky players are about 1000x more likely to CR shove with worse then your hand in this spot then they are to call (this is key).

therefore if you are not going to INSTA-CALL a river CR shove your bet is terrible.

as long as you called his shove then i like your line, and i don't care what the results are.

if you value bet this river and fold to a raise you didn't have a good thought process before you bet the river.

i think it is a little silly to start trying to figure out what he might have AFTER you bet and get CR so all this going back and forth over what hands he'll play like this seems to be besides the point.

before you bet the river you should have some idea what hands he has and a correlated idea of with what frequency you can expect him to bluff raise you on the river, because that is the only reason for betting.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

This hand seems so similar to the one against PA. Agree with RBK.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

shouldn't this post really be discussing the merits of the river bet in the first place? i'm assuming you called this, since if you didn't, there was really no point in making the bet at all. i can't ever see him calling with worse-just pushing or folding, so obv it makes no sense for you to bet/fold

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
shouldn't this post really be discussing the merits of the river bet in the first place? i'm assuming you called this, since if you didn't, there was really no point in making the bet at all. i can't ever see him calling with worse-just pushing or folding, so obv it makes no sense for you to bet/fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Booth could definitely call with worse hands, and Jman also needs to bet here some of the time to protect his bluffs. Fearing a river c/r AI is not a reason to check IMO, although that certainly would reduce variance.

Personally, I think the best approach is to dive right in and trust your ability to make tough decisions.

-Jeff

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

totally disagree with RBK, Booth is def calling here with worse hands sometimes

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Booth could definitely call with worse hands, and Jman also needs to bet here some of the time to protect his bluffs. Fearing a river c/r AI is not a reason to check IMO, although that certainly would reduce variance.

Personally, I think the best approach is to dive right in and trust your ability to make tough decisions.

-Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree. Making this river bet a lot/some of the time is 100% necessary high stakes NLHE HU. Suggesting it should only be made in a fixed bet/call line is just wierd/silly.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
shouldn't this post really be discussing the merits of the river bet in the first place? i'm assuming you called this, since if you didn't, there was really no point in making the bet at all. i can't ever see him calling with worse-just pushing or folding, so obv it makes no sense for you to bet/fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Booth could definitely call with worse hands, and Jman also needs to bet here some of the time to protect his bluffs. Fearing a river c/r AI is not a reason to check IMO, although that certainly would reduce variance.

Personally, I think the best approach is to dive right in and trust your ability to make tough decisions.

-Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree aswell. You make very good posts action jeff.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
totally disagree with RBK, Booth is def calling here with worse hands sometimes

[/ QUOTE ]

well first of all i didn't say booth will NEVER call with a worse hand, i said he is 1000x more likely to CR bluff with worse hands and i stick by that.

meh from what i know of booth i have a hard time believing he'll just call here more ofen then he'll CR shove with a lower PP/A high type of hand.

seems way more likely if he's unsure of if his hand is good in this spot he'll shove just in case.

could be wrong though.

and as for protecting you ability to bluff i don't think tha is applicable here.
you can still bluff even if you check in this spot, anyone who thinks that good HU players aren't going to drastically change their lines, play in a dynamic fashion are out of their mind.
the point is that if in Jman's mind he is value betting the river that means he has made a read up to that point and should be willing/committed to call a shove here because he knows that his opponent is willing to make that play with a worse hand.

what on earth does his bet accomplish if he isn't willing to commit to his read?

i would love for someone to explain to me the logic behind betting and then folding in this spot.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

Since when did everyone start betting rivers for value with second pair with the intention of snap calling a c/r shove? I personally think this river bet is necessary against someone like Booth, however he plays absolutely crazy. I think that IM conversation OP posted was a good basis for a good thought process.

RBK, while I do not know what I would do in this particular instance (probably fold), I think taking the mindset of only betting a river with the intention of calling a shove because you made a read that your hand was best, makes your game highly exploitable from good opponents. The fact that he c/r river adds a lot more info about the strength of his hand and should be taken into effect.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that he c/r river adds a lot more info about the strength of his hand and should be taken into effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

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The fact that he c/r river adds a lot more info about the strength of his hand and should be taken into effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

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I know you play good, but I still added that in even though it sounds real elementary. For some reason everyone keeps saying that once you bet river it should be with the intention of calling a shove. I disagree and explained it simplistically in a thread where I find I disagree with a people about this basic concept. I may be mis-understanding your explaination, but how can you snap call this river in any circumstance.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

I basically agree with rbk here - only played up to 10/20 though.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I basically agree with rbk here - only played up to 10/20 though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does everyone have that Jman avatar?

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

sorry ak wasn't trying to be a dick.
but the point is vs this player the fact that he CR the river doesn't really define his hand to us any better because he is so capable of making this play on a stone cold bluff/or with a slightly worse hand then ours.

i'm not sure if ppl really read my post but i'm not saying that whenever you bet the river you should always be willing to call a CRAI.

i'm saying that vs brad in this spot if you value bet this river one big reason to do so is to induce a river CR.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
sorry ak wasn't trying to be a dick.
but the point is vs this player the fact that he CR the river doesn't really define his hand to us any better because he is so capable of making this play on a stone cold bluff/or with a slightly worse hand then ours.

i'm not sure if ppl really read my post but i'm not saying that whenever you bet the river you should always be willing to call a CRAI.

i'm saying that vs brad in this spot if you value bet this river one big reason to do so is to induce a river CR.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I understand your thoughts now, and I agree. I think something that should be included in OP is whether or not Booth was on tilt. I've personally never played with him but watched him enough to say that I don't think hes very good at all. And when he's tilting, he's just awful. I think his mood has a lot to do with the decision to call this river or not.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
therefore if you are not going to INSTA-CALL a river CR shove your bet is terrible.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is bad advice.
I like the river bet, the river decision is extremely tough.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

i have no idea whether to call the AI or not, but isnt the river bet pretty standard?

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i have no idea whether to call the AI or not, but isnt the river bet pretty standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

yea, exactly.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

bump.
you jman, i know you're a busy guy but how about humoring us with some results?

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

i feel like you called this, lol. i feel like you are right half of the time, maybe slightly more. i feel like you call in the neighborhood of 60-65% of the time. booth is entirely capable of check raising with J9 here though, for sick value shove! results!!!

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i feel like you called this, lol. i feel like you are right half of the time, maybe slightly more. i feel like you call in the neighborhood of 60-65% of the time. booth is entirely capable of check raising with J9 here though, for sick value shove! results!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I called of course.

He has KJss.

I still like my call.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

do you think he'd have check/shoved if the river was the 2d?

just curious really.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
do you think he'd have check/shoved if the river was the 2d?

just curious really.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it, but possibly.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]


Yeah, I called of course.

He has KJss.



[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, how does KXss not make it into the hand range? Just curious? I seem to be guilty of this err myself.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

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Yeah, I called of course.

He has KJss.



[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, how does KXss not make it into the hand range? Just curious? I seem to be guilty of this err myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure, maybe its because it seems more seem like he's repping the flush, which we doubt cus he's a good player.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
i feel like you called this, lol. i feel like you are right half of the time, maybe slightly more. i feel like you call in the neighborhood of 60-65% of the time. booth is entirely capable of check raising with J9 here though, for sick value shove! results!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I called of course.

He has KJss.

I still like my call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, how do you like Brad's line here?

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i feel like you called this, lol. i feel like you are right half of the time, maybe slightly more. i feel like you call in the neighborhood of 60-65% of the time. booth is entirely capable of check raising with J9 here though, for sick value shove! results!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I called of course.

He has KJss.

I still like my call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, how do you like Brad's line here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it a lot. He should c/r or bet turn sometimes too. But I like the line he took best v me with his image.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

Call me crazy, but sometimes doesn't Brad do this with a hand like AA? I'm sure I've seen him play big pairs like this in the past with huge c/r overshoves. (I haven't read down at all so not sure if results posted)

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

your beat. brad plays much higher than these stakes and prolly has rag 2 pr (suited to start). he will gamble but his play is that of a winner. would u call spirit rock here in same spot. preseption is everything. brad understands, its crazy.

Re: 100/200 River C/R Hand of the Month (vs. Brad Booth)
 

can u dig jman?