Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

So as to not hijack the thread about the clock I pulled this out.
[ QUOTE ]
To be quite honest, too much time is wasted playing B&M with staredowns. If you had a minute to decide, I dont see why needing one more minute would be quite enough time. Before going to b&m, the most time for a decision with stars with the additional 40 second clock. tilt and party gave no extra time and they spread 5K games. So bottom line, I dont see anything wrong with calling a clock after 60 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line of thinking causes a lot of problems these days. This is an online player. Takes how they do things online and decides they should apply to B&M. B&M cardrooms existed long before the internet and have their own established customs. To suggest they should change to be like online is at the root of a lot of problems the older players ahve with the younger players.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

That being said, I tend to believe that his point about staredowns is valid. If you need some time to ponder putting a big chunk of your buy-in into the pot, that's fine. But staring a guy down over a $20 raise, which I've seen time and again, is just ridiculous. Frankly, it's a big reason I dislike NL poker.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

IMHO, no more than about 15% of protracted pauses are actually related to a difficult decision. Most of the time, it's an out of line move that gets picked off, and the mover is trying to save face by making it look like a tough decision.

It drives me freakin' crazy. There's no shame in making a move and insta-folding when you get played back at. Done with the correct frequency, it helps your image. For the LAG, nobody beleives the "Hollywood Minute" anyway.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
So as to not hijack the thread about the clock I pulled this out.
[ QUOTE ]
To be quite honest, too much time is wasted playing B&M with staredowns. If you had a minute to decide, I dont see why needing one more minute would be quite enough time. Before going to b&m, the most time for a decision with stars with the additional 40 second clock. tilt and party gave no extra time and they spread 5K games. So bottom line, I dont see anything wrong with calling a clock after 60 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line of thinking causes a lot of problems these days. This is an online player. Takes how they do things online and decides they should apply to B&M. B&M cardrooms existed long before the internet and have their own established customs. To suggest they should change to be like online is at the root of a lot of problems the older players ahve with the younger players.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many times do you really think a player needs more than 60 seconds to make a decision? After having a night to sleep on this I stand by my thinking. Does the older play tip a buck per minute for staredowns, especially if they fold? I actually feel worse for the dealer in the box during these 5 minute ordeals. FWIW, I do not deal, I play in the LA limited buy in games, so stack sizes relative to blinds are far smaller, so this does taint my viewpoint, but I see these 2-3 minute staredowns for 60BB pots in NL and just go insane.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
That being said, I tend to believe that his point about staredowns is valid. If you need some time to ponder putting a big chunk of your buy-in into the pot, that's fine. But staring a guy down over a $20 raise, which I've seen time and again, is just ridiculous. Frankly, it's a big reason I dislike NL poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I am on the receiving end of a 60 second staredown I usually lean forward and stare back or I make a goofy face or sometimes I cover my face with my hands. That usually gets things moving and prevents future delays.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

Well, in general I agree, but I guess I'll throw a counter point out there.

suppose I'm an internet player who plays NL25-NL50-NL100 or Limit. If you are playing live NL200, you can double or triple up pretty quick. Suddenly, you are put to a decision for a few hundo that is a lot more money than most the deicions you have to make. Here a understand even 2 or 3 minutes.

But yes, the posturing is rediculous.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

Most players who do the stare down are trying to look cool, like on TV. Let them have their fun.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most players who do the stare down are trying to look cool, like on TV. Let them have their fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly enough I usually think I'm in the minority of those that read/post here in that I play poker primarily for fun. Of course I prefer winning to losing but I'm not trying to make a living at it. So when somebody throws the game out of whack by doing stuff like the 3 minute staredowns or berating other players it kind of sucks (harshes my mellow if you will).

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many times do you really think a player needs more than 60 seconds to make a decision?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I started this thread to have a discussion that was seperate from taking too long to act. This same line of thinking applies to many things in a B&M (lists, blinds, number of players at the table etc). It is unreasonable for the online player to expect the B&M cardrooms to change how they do things to make the game like what he is used to online.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

I see two issues:

1. "Gee, they don't do this way online". It's not online. If you want it done the way they do it online, go home to your Dell. They are not going to spread 6-max PLO for you at the Bellagio. They don't have hand histories at the Horseshoe. They are not going to have a 20-second time limit for NL at the Bike.

2. NL in B&M is relatively new. There seems to be 101 variations on rules and procedures and 'cardroom etiquette'. And 10001 variations on how Internet and TV and B&M educated players think it "should be done", from string raises, to verbal declarations, to calling for the clock.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most players who do the stare down are trying to look cool, like on TV. Let them have their fun.

[/ QUOTE ]


Exactly. I usually do the opposite. I make my bet and while the opponent is thinking... I stare them down. Makes them sweat it out a little bit. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

Last night three times I had players ask a dealer to spread the pot and the dealer did so. I growled about it once hoping the dealer would get the message but the dealer just growled back (BTW three different dealers spread pots for players to count).

This has to connected to internet players always being told what is in the pot.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
Last night three times I had players ask a dealer to spread the pot and the dealer did so. I growled about it once hoping the dealer would get the message but the dealer just growled back (BTW three different dealers spread pots for players to count).

This has to connected to internet players always being told what is in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see any problem with asking what the pot is...but that's just me.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well I started this thread to have a discussion that was seperate from taking too long to act. This same line of thinking applies to many things in a B&M (lists, blinds, number of players at the table etc). It is unreasonable for the online player to expect the B&M cardrooms to change how they do things to make the game like what he is used to online.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't mean to jack the thread. Sorry about that. I agree that the B&M experience is vastly different and that expecting it to be like playing online is nuts. I greatly prefer playing live. I was just whining about "Hollywooding" as is my wont both online and in person.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is unreasonable for the online player to expect the B&M cardrooms to change how they do things to make the game like what he is used to online.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. The worst is when online players think that they can use IWTSTH any time they want, because they have the "right" to see mucked cards (because that's the way it works online).

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
Last night three times I had players ask a dealer to spread the pot and the dealer did so. I growled about it once hoping the dealer would get the message but the dealer just growled back (BTW three different dealers spread pots for players to count).

This has to connected to internet players always being told what is in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont play internet poker that often, but Ive been asking to spread the pot out long before party poker told me what was in it. Its not rude want know I general idea of the pot size. Now if someone asked in a limit game on the river...well thats a little different.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last night three times I had players ask a dealer to spread the pot and the dealer did so. I growled about it once hoping the dealer would get the message but the dealer just growled back (BTW three different dealers spread pots for players to count).

This has to connected to internet players always being told what is in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont play internet poker that often, but Ive been asking to spread the pot out long before party poker told me what was in it. Its not rude want know I general idea of the pot size. Now if someone asked in a limit game on the river...well thats a little different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not rude that you want to know the pot size. didn't suggest that. Its just improper for a dealer to spread the pot for a player to count. And its the players expectation that the pot be countable that I trace to the internet. While it might have occasionally happened before it certaiunly happens with greater frequency now.

I have no idea why you think it makes a difference if this is NL or Limit. Either game it is very easy to track pot sizes.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

Is it rude to call click in a non-time raked NL cash game?

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
Last night three times I had players ask a dealer to spread the pot and the dealer did so.

[/ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, a few days ago a youngin' asked the dealer how much was in the pot and the dealer said "I can't tell you". Kid asked "can you spread the chips out for me, then" and the dealer said "no". So they do sometimes still do it right some places 'round here.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

RR has said this before (and much more eloquently then I), but my view is that I want the dealers hands out of the pot as much as possible (unless, of course, it is a PL game where it is unavoidable).

Keep track of the bets yourself. Basic addition and multiplication. Plain and simple.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
So as to not hijack the thread about the clock I pulled this out.
[ QUOTE ]
To be quite honest, too much time is wasted playing B&M with staredowns. If you had a minute to decide, I dont see why needing one more minute would be quite enough time. Before going to b&m, the most time for a decision with stars with the additional 40 second clock. tilt and party gave no extra time and they spread 5K games. So bottom line, I dont see anything wrong with calling a clock after 60 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line of thinking causes a lot of problems these days. This is an online player. Takes how they do things online and decides they should apply to B&M. B&M cardrooms existed long before the internet and have their own established customs. To suggest they should change to be like online is at the root of a lot of problems the older players ahve with the younger players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this a fair point, but I would also consider that:

1) In my SSNL experience, the biggest staredown offenders are younger players. So, I'm not sure the gratuitous staredown is a B&M institution, though provision for extensive decision time is. What these players asking to stop may be new abuse of a longstanding custom.

2) To the extent that younger players with internet experience comprise a substantial part of a cardroom's clientele, their voice should be heard in establishing both policies and customs. The established B&M players don't own the cardrooms, and so there is no special reason that the rooms should operate as they want rather than as a new customer segment wants.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

I had two cases come up in a 2 hour session at the Casino AZ 5/150 game, that I had to think about over a minute.

The first was when I tried to steal with J8s, button and blinds called, and the flop came KT9, it was checked around, turn a Q, I bet 3/4 pot, and get raised by button 100 more. I can't put him on anything but AJ, but I still had to think it out, and about 2 minutes, I finally folded and showed the J, and he showed AJ.

About 20 minutes earlier, I raised UTG with AK, and the button called, as did the blinds. Flop comes A83, I bet 3/4 pot, button again raises 100, and I am not ready to go broke on TPTK, and think and think, and finally conclude he has 88 or 33, and I fold and show, and he shows AA.

In either of these cases, if I only had 40 secs, I woulda ended up calling more than likely, and lost my stack in each case.

For limit, yes it is crazy to ever spend more than 40 secs, but NL, a few times a session it is necessary.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last night three times I had players ask a dealer to spread the pot and the dealer did so. I growled about it once hoping the dealer would get the message but the dealer just growled back (BTW three different dealers spread pots for players to count).

This has to connected to internet players always being told what is in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont play internet poker that often, but Ive been asking to spread the pot out long before party poker told me what was in it. Its not rude want know I general idea of the pot size. Now if someone asked in a limit game on the river...well thats a little different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not rude that you want to know the pot size. didn't suggest that. Its just improper for a dealer to spread the pot for a player to count. And its the players expectation that the pot be countable that I trace to the internet. While it might have occasionally happened before it certaiunly happens with greater frequency now.

I have no idea why you think it makes a difference if this is NL or Limit. Either game it is very easy to track pot sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the dealer should be counting the pot, but it seems reasonable to me that high-value chips in the pot should at least be visible.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many times do you really think a player needs more than 60 seconds to make a decision?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I started this thread to have a discussion that was seperate from taking too long to act. This same line of thinking applies to many things in a B&M (lists, blinds, number of players at the table etc). It is unreasonable for the online player to expect the B&M cardrooms to change how they do things to make the game like what he is used to online.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. We tend to see it in this forum. Many of the threads about showdowns tend to make good examples.

That said, I think 60+ seconds to make a decision is ridiculous. Hell, flip a damn coin by that time.

b

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is unreasonable for the online player to expect the B&M cardrooms to change how they do things to make the game like what he is used to online.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. The worst is when online players think that they can use IWTSTH any time they want, because they have the "right" to see mucked cards (because that's the way it works online).

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never had a problem with players using that rule.

b

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last night three times I had players ask a dealer to spread the pot and the dealer did so. I growled about it once hoping the dealer would get the message but the dealer just growled back (BTW three different dealers spread pots for players to count).

This has to connected to internet players always being told what is in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont play internet poker that often, but Ive been asking to spread the pot out long before party poker told me what was in it. Its not rude want know I general idea of the pot size. Now if someone asked in a limit game on the river...well thats a little different.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the difference whether you do it on the turn or river?

b

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]

About 20 minutes earlier, I raised UTG with AK, and the button called, as did the blinds. Flop comes A83, I bet 3/4 pot, button again raises 100, and I am not ready to go broke on TPTK, and think and think, and finally conclude he has 88 or 33, and I fold and show, and he shows AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be glad he wasn't patient enough to let you keep betting at that pot.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

What are you trying say, though, RR? Is it always bad form to call a clock on a player when you're not in the hand? I don't think it is.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many times do you really think a player needs more than 60 seconds to make a decision?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I started this thread to have a discussion that was seperate from taking too long to act. This same line of thinking applies to many things in a B&M (lists, blinds, number of players at the table etc). It is unreasonable for the online player to expect the B&M cardrooms to change how they do things to make the game like what he is used to online.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. We tend to see it in this forum. Many of the threads about showdowns tend to make good examples.

That said, I think 60+ seconds to make a decision is ridiculous. Hell, flip a damn coin by that time.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

How many times do I think a player needs more than 60 seconds to make a decision? Not very often.

But on those rare times when it is reasonable to take more time than this, a player's wishes should be respected unless that player has a history of being disrespectful to the game.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many times do you really think a player needs more than 60 seconds to make a decision?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I started this thread to have a discussion that was seperate from taking too long to act. This same line of thinking applies to many things in a B&M (lists, blinds, number of players at the table etc). It is unreasonable for the online player to expect the B&M cardrooms to change how they do things to make the game like what he is used to online.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. We tend to see it in this forum. Many of the threads about showdowns tend to make good examples.

That said, I think 60+ seconds to make a decision is ridiculous. Hell, flip a damn coin by that time.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

How many times do I think a player needs more than 60 seconds to make a decision? Not very often.

But on those rare times when it is reasonable to take more time than this, a player's wishes should be respected unless that player has a history of being disrespectful to the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a minute is about max. I agree that a players history could come into play here, but then you have to draw the line somewhere. You're really going to let one guy do it, then tell another guy 4 hands later he can't because he has a history of stalling? That wouldn't go over too well.

I still think a minute is more than enough time.

Someone just mentioned taking possibly 3 minutes. Can you imagine waiting that long? 3 minutes is an eternity in a live game. 3 minutes online is a disconnect.

b

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many times do I think a player needs more than 60 seconds to make a decision? Not very often.

But on those rare times when it is reasonable to take more time than this, a player's wishes should be respected unless that player has a history of being disrespectful to the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a minute is about max. I agree that a players history could come into play here, but then you have to draw the line somewhere. You're really going to let one guy do it, then tell another guy 4 hands later he can't because he has a history of stalling? That wouldn't go over too well.

I still think a minute is more than enough time.

Someone just mentioned taking possibly 3 minutes. Can you imagine waiting that long? 3 minutes is an eternity in a live game. 3 minutes online is a disconnect.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I've let someone take 3 minutes for a decision a couple times. I can think of one occassion where I took at least 3 minutes for a decision. In all cases, I think the amount of time was warrented given the situation. It's not a case of staring someone down or Hollywooding. It takes some time to think through all the possibilities, remember hand you have played against that opponent in the past, do some Bayesian calculations, etc. This can easily take over a minute.

Now obviously, you could take this amount of time factoring this stuff on every hand and you would be a jerk, but for exceptionally large decisions (e.g. facing a bet of >100 BBs), I think it is reasonable.

Online is a totally different game with different rules of etiquette entirely. Also, I would never play online for the sort of stakes I will play live in large part because I feel so rushed.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]

So as to not hijack the thread about ...


[/ QUOTE ]

The irony.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had two cases come up in a 2 hour session at the Casino AZ 5/150 game, that I had to think about over a minute.

The first was when I tried to steal with J8s, button and blinds called, and the flop came KT9, it was checked around, turn a Q, I bet 3/4 pot, and get raised by button 100 more. I can't put him on anything but AJ, but I still had to think it out, and about 2 minutes, I finally folded and showed the J, and he showed AJ.

About 20 minutes earlier, I raised UTG with AK, and the button called, as did the blinds. Flop comes A83, I bet 3/4 pot, button again raises 100, and I am not ready to go broke on TPTK, and think and think, and finally conclude he has 88 or 33, and I fold and show, and he shows AA.

In either of these cases, if I only had 40 secs, I woulda ended up calling more than likely, and lost my stack in each case.

For limit, yes it is crazy to ever spend more than 40 secs, but NL, a few times a session it is necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but how often do you need more than 2? So if someone calls time after 60-90 secs, I don't think its as outrageous as everyone is saying.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is unreasonable for the online player to expect the B&M cardrooms to change how they do things to make the game like what he is used to online.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. The worst is when online players think that they can use IWTSTH any time they want, because they have the "right" to see mucked cards (because that's the way it works online).

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never had a problem with players using that rule.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that IWTSTH is far abused. What I hate is that every fricken regular has to show his busted hand to his buddy before he folds it.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

If you need time to make a decision, just tell the dealer you need time. This pulls the rug out from under the people that want to call the clock too soon.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that IWTSTH is far abused. What I hate is that every fricken regular has to show his busted hand to his buddy before he folds it.

[/ QUOTE ]

IWTSTH is different from "show one, show all," though.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

Don't get me started with the abuse of the show one, show all, that has morphed into the show one(card), show both....

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't get me started with the abuse of the show one, show all, that has morphed into the show one(card), show both....

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's just weak.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last night three times I had players ask a dealer to spread the pot and the dealer did so.

[/ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, a few days ago a youngin' asked the dealer how much was in the pot and the dealer said "I can't tell you". Kid asked "can you spread the chips out for me, then" and the dealer said "no". So they do sometimes still do it right some places 'round here.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thats absured.You have the right to ask the dealer to count the pot or spread out. If they said no then I would really slow the game down because the is getting called floor and Im making a scene. Ive never heard of a dealer saying no.

Re: Etiquette in a B&M casino
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have the right to ask the dealer to count the pot or spread out.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you don't (except in a PL game).

Counting and spreading are two different things, but neither should be done (and counting will not be in Vegas). Players are responsible for keeping track of the pot size, if they so choose.

If you have never heard of it, then I am guessing you haven't played a lot in Vegas. I have never seen a dealer comply with counting out a sizeable pot upon request (and with the advent of internet poker, there have been quite a few requests). When the pot has like $<20 in it then yeah, I have witnessned some answering the question, but that was only becuase it was glaringly obvious.