nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

villain is 17/12.5/2.38 over just under 100 hands

at this table iirc i was decently aggro with all sorts of crap in small pots vs 2 other at table who were very passive and weakish, and definitely not only showing down good hands, but only really dicking in small pots

however with villain i have no history, but if he tracked stats i probably was running around 24/19 preflop in our 100 or so hands together (if he datamines a large sample im closer to 20/16/3ish)



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($97)
MP ($239.80)
CO ($99)
Hero ($191.15)
SB ($194.50)
BB ($157.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $8</font>, BB calls $8.

Turn: ($24.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $19</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $52</font>, <font color="#CC3333">



what now? what range might he be taking this line with??

yes we are slightly over 150bb deep

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

ps yes i have TWO pairs. but i think the same principles might apply

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

You're either ahead or behind to 55. I think I'd get it in here, since you have an aggro image and he could play QdJd this way. No sense making it a tough decision if an A or diamond hits on river.

Jesse

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

i'd call and call reasonable rivers depending on the board. sets, KT, weird Aces/AK, semibluff Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], random five outer bluffs, air.

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

fairly sick spot against a guy this nitty, but i don't think you can get away from it. a lot of nit donks with a bad understanding of the game and their self-image will play AA this way too.

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're either ahead or behind to 55. I think I'd get it in here, since you have an aggro image and he could play QdJd this way. No sense making it a tough decision if an A or diamond hits on river.

Jesse

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I don't think an A or diamond is that scary on river. unless he has AK, QJ or AA, i cant't think of much else it helps here. QJd is the only diamond draw that makes sense.

edited to take out my calling comment, didn't mean to leave it in after rereading hand.

another edit: after thinking AA, AK and QJ might be a decent sized part of his narrow range, but i still am not scared by a diamond and Aces are only 2-3 outs if hes has one for him.

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

Push here. If he is semi bluffing with a draw you'd rather get the chips in on the turn rather than the river, and if he has a set at least you probably have 4 outs. I think his range includes QJdd, 55, AK, and AA. Occasionally other weird hands might show up like 53s and AJdd, and he could also just be sick of your aggro ways and airballing you.

Part of the reason you develop an aggro image is to safely get it in with top 2 on neutral boards like this. If you want to fold you should reconsider your whole strategy.

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

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Push here. If he is semi bluffing with a draw you'd rather get the chips in on the turn rather than the river, and if he has a set at least you probably have 4 outs. I think his range includes QJdd, 55, AK, and AA. Occasionally other weird hands might show up like 53s and AJdd, and he could also just be sick of your aggro ways and airballing you.

Part of the reason you develop an aggro image is to safely get it in with top 2 on neutral boards like this. If you want to fold you should reconsider your whole strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]
excellent post!

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

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Push here. If he is semi bluffing with a draw you'd rather get the chips in on the turn rather than the river, and if he has a set at least you probably have 4 outs. I think his range includes QJdd, 55, AK, and AA. Occasionally other weird hands might show up like 53s and AJdd, and he could also just be sick of your aggro ways and airballing you.

Part of the reason you develop an aggro image is to safely get it in with top 2 on neutral boards like this. If you want to fold you should reconsider your whole strategy.

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i am NOT a lag, i play a pretty snug (read: nitty) tag game... all i meant by my being aggro was that i'd been doing [censored] like 2barreling limped pots vs 2 others at the table. weve nver played any pot past the flop so his tilty sickness meter is prolly pretty close to 0

anyway lol enough of me making a big deal out of a tiny amount of hands, appreciate the input


point i probably shouldve asked in OP: if hes doing this with a draw, hasnt he manipulated his cr size so that he doesnt have to call a push? even with QdJd calling if i push isnt really that hot (calling almost 100 more for a 310 or so final pot)

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

meh if he's c/ring Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] he's already making a pretty big mistake when we call. plus if he has air he might halfpot bluff the river but won't call a push obv. he's def. calling a push w/ a set, maybe calling a push w/ aces/random ak, but he's prob. betting the river with those which we can call, or checking the river where we can make a value bet.

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

I'd call and reeval river...river depends on card and bet size, but any decent bet on a non K/T river means I'm prob out.

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

[ QUOTE ]
i am NOT a lag, i play a pretty snug (read: nitty) tag game... all i meant by my being aggro was that i'd been doing [censored] like 2barreling limped pots vs 2 others at the table. weve nver played any pot past the flop so his tilty sickness meter is prolly pretty close to 0

[/ QUOTE ]
Hard to say. To a 17/12 your recent 24/19 stats are pretty wild and he could just be waiting for any hand to catch you getting out of line with. If he knows you are normally tighter he could think you are on tilt and looking to stack off. I'm not saying that is certainly the case, but I think you are in a position to be played back against.

[ QUOTE ]
point i probably shouldve asked in OP: if hes doing this with a draw, hasnt he manipulated his cr size so that he doesnt have to call a push? even with QdJd calling if i push isnt really that hot (calling almost 100 more for a 310 or so final pot)

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So what? If you just call the check/raise against QJdd that's really sad for you when you could have forced him to abandon his hand or make a mistake by calling. Yes he chose a good bet size with QJdd (he didn't trap himself), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't give him the opportunity to make a mistake.

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

wow. I really disagree that a 17/12/2.4 player is going to check/raise bluff or semi bluff the turn and then fire again on the river after reverse floating the flop. I think he has something, and I think that calling the turn tells him you have something, so I don't expect him to bluff again if the river turns his hand into nothing.

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

I think a turn push sucks bc like *** he isnt bluffing the river very often if called on the turn.

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

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[ QUOTE ]
point i probably shouldve asked in OP: if hes doing this with a draw, hasnt he manipulated his cr size so that he doesnt have to call a push? even with QdJd calling if i push isnt really that hot (calling almost 100 more for a 310 or so final pot)

[/ QUOTE ]
So what? If you just call the check/raise against QJdd that's really sad for you when you could have forced him to abandon his hand or make a mistake by calling. Yes he chose a good bet size with QJdd (he didn't trap himself), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't give him the opportunity to make a mistake.

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i think i agree iwht you. but how often do tags with busted draws (as played) on the river follow thru with a shove here anyway? hed be shoving in somewhere around 80% pot which is just about perfect after i run down my clock on the turn bfore calling, and imho that would be hella profitable since after i call my most likely hand is a onepair that i will chuck to a river shove.. and even most 2p hands have a tough time calling

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

yeah prob. not air, maybe i'm overarguing calling b/c i really don't like pushing here. he's already making a mistake if he's raising his draw tho, you want to bank on that hand for him? he could still have a set.

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

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yeah prob. not air, maybe i'm overarguing calling b/c i really don't like pushing here. he's already making a mistake if he's raising his draw tho, you want to bank on that hand for him? he could still have a set.

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I agree a set is possible, but I figure there are only 5 combos of sets (disregarding 33), but 1 combo each of QJdd, AJdd, as well as 8 combos AK, 6 combos of AA, and 4 combos of 53.

I know that some of the hands we beat should be should be discounted (esp 53), but I also think that this line doesn't necessarily mean a set, since villain shouldn't offer us a free card on the turn. I stand by the push, but agree that if you are going to just call the turn you should be folding to any serious river action if you are unimproved.

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

I woulda checked the turn, bet the river on this dry of a board.

Re: nl100 stars... top 2 gets balugad
 

His range looks like another K10, 555, 101010, AK, AA, KK, possibly QJ or K5 suited but not likely. He's not calling out of bb with 105.