Misplayed AK out of position
 

Borgata 40-80 Saturday night... okay game... We're playing 7-handed. I've only been playing for a few orbits, so no great reads on villain, other than he has been raising and 3-betting a fair amount PF... hasn't gotten to showdown yet.
On to the hand...

Villain raises from UTG+1, folds around to me, and I 3-bet A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] from the SB. BB folds, villain calls, and it's heads up. Flop comes T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I bet, and villain raises. I just call (?). Turn comes 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check here, villain bets, and I just call again. River comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I check again, villain bets, and...

I feel like I misplayed this hand horrendously from villain's raise on the flop, but wasn't sure of a better line at the time given that I had no read. Anyone donk the turn or even c/r the turn? As played, do you call or fold this river against an unknown?

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

The idea of 3-betting the flop & leading the turn is interesting.It only costs you 1 sb more to get to the river this way.But it looks a little spewish to me.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

As played, I think you have to fold the river unless you feel your hand maybe good or you want to pay for information since it's only 1 more bet. I don't mind the flop & turn calls since you had overcards & a flush draw but your villian has bet into you the whole way. I'd give him credit for a hand.

Most likely, I would have folded the flop since I did not improve & you 3 bet him PF & he bet into you on the flop. He must have liked that flop & wasn't scared of your 3 bet...

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

I fold the river. You played this hand totally standard and I don't think I'd play it any differently. His flop raise could mean a lot of things from an overpair to a flush draw. Folding the flop isn't a good play imo b/c you could easily have 6 clean outs plus a bd flush draw and theres also a possibility you're ahead. I don't like 3 betting here b/c your hand is still pretty weak. Once the Qs hits, you've got many outs to the nuts and the rest of the hand plays itself

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

I know how you feel on this hand.The way that you played it was completely reasonable.But if you throw it away on the river,it may be that he just read you for AK & moved you off of the hand.If he had a big pair,he probably would have re-raised pre-flop.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

call on the river...AKo is most likely hand for anyone to raise UTG with--perhaps 50% of the time?...could be many other hands though (AA-JJ), so if you folded it would be no crime imho..

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

This is a pretty clear fold. You played the hand well prior to this point, in my opinion.

My basic thoughts are:

1. You say you don't have a great read, but, frankly, the fact that you've played enough orbits to know that villain is aggressive pre-flop AND he has yet to showdown a hand, suggests he is probably pretty taggish, and could be a strong player. Based on this information I'm tempted to give him some credit.

2. You show a lot of strength by three-betting an UTG raiser from the small blind. I think, because of this, his flop raise is a lot more meaningful. I am expecting a pair here a lot of the time.

3. I don't think our AK has much showdown value, as a lot of opponents would check behind AK here, and we're calling to chop so often anyway.

4. I think that if we have good enough reason to believe villain might be tied with us and / or behind on the turn, might we not consider a semi-bluff there in order to realize the most equity. Calling the river only gains the 50% equity we have with other AKs, but a semi-bluff may actually steal some of that if that is what we want to do. In my opinion, that play would be spewy because of points #1 and #2 above, but IF we are confident we want to showdown AK I think we should at least consider check-raising the turn.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

As played, I call the river just to look the villain up and gain some information.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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The idea of 3-betting the flop & leading the turn is interesting.It only costs you 1 sb more to get to the river this way.But it looks a little spewish to me.

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You're out of position so it only costs you 1SB more when everything goes perfectly.

Rob

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

This looks like such an easy fold that I can't help but imagine the villain showed a bluff after you folded. It's pretty difficult (impossible) to concoct a way in which your hand is best here against an unknown.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

I agree.. I think if I had a position here, I definitely would've 3-bet a flop raise, but being OOP really sucks in this type of hand... I definitely thought about check-raising the turn here (for potential fold equity with the nut re-draw), but didn't pull the trigger (and certainly didn't want to get 3-bet on the turn).

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

Deranged,

Nice analysis... I generally agree with your points here. I think that the time to make a move at this pot is the turn if we think villain is FOS... my only issue with Point #1 is that while he seemed taggish, he was also not being called down, so maybe he felt like he could run over the table. Since I actually hadn't seen him showdown a hand, this actually made me want to call the river for informational purposes. I don't know if that really justifies a calldown, but I had been playing (at other tables) for roughly 25 hours, so maybe I wasn't thinking too clearly by this point [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

As played, I'm hard pressed to come up with a reason for calling the river. He has shown a fair amount of strength, and is probably not firing the last barrel on a bluff, but more likely making a value bet. I think the time to make a move was the turn. I instinctively thought a C/R would work well here, since you definitely have flush outs if called, and your overs might be good as well.

However, if we turn C/R, will that oblige us to fire again on the river if we blank off, in the hopes he was calling with a pair and a FD and was planning on folding the river UI? Or should we just give up the ship without a read?

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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Most likely, I would have folded the flop

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There is no way this is correct getting 10-1 odds. People raise all the time on ragged flops to get a free card. Flat out, this is WAY too early to give someone credit for a hand, particularly in this game.

Jeff

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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he probably would have re-raised pre-flop.


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Why, when he has position and can instead raise you on an expensive street?

Jeff

RESULTS
 

Thanks guys for all the replies... in general, as this game is pretty aggressive, I think a c/r on the turn would've been a better play (although I would've hated getting 3-bet obviously). Anyway, I looked at the 8 BB pot, and said [censored] it, let's see what this guy's got, and kissed $80 goodbye... or so I thought. Villain says Ace high, and turns over A8 diamonds, and MHIG. I still hate check-calling this river (and felt like a fish doing it), and am just trying to figure out the best line for this hand in the future against an unknown (without being results oriented).

-Eric

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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Most likely, I would have folded the flop

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There is no way this is correct getting 10-1 odds. People raise all the time on ragged flops to get a free card. Flat out, this is WAY too early to give someone credit for a hand, particularly in this game.

Jeff

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I have never played in this particular game, I was just basing that off of my own experiences. The mid limit games I play in are usually full of a bunch of old men who only bet when they have something & won't fold until you show them a winning hand. AK unimproved on the flop facing a bet is usually behind.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

You're heads-up. You are getting 10-1. You likely have six outs and the only strength you've been shown is getting raised on a ragged flop by someone who quite possibly wants a free card. Not to mention the fact that bet-folding this flop after reraising out of the small will be like putting a big "kick me" sign on your forehead. IMO if you are bet-folding this hand on the flop in a typical 40 game, you are better off mailing your money in.

Jeff

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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You're heads-up. You are getting 10-1. You likely have six outs and the only strength you've been shown is getting raised on a ragged flop by someone who quite possibly wants a free card. Not to mention the fact that bet-folding this flop after reraising out of the small will be like putting a big "kick me" sign on your forehead. IMO if you are bet-folding this hand on the flop in a typical 40 game, you are better off mailing your money in.

Jeff

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Pot odds aside, is it too far wrong to fold when you know you are behind?

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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Pot odds aside, is it too far wrong to fold when you know you are behind?

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I'm confused - how can you put pot odds aside when you're deciding whether to fold? You could be so far behind and only have one out and if the pot is big enough you still ought to call. I agree that folding to the flop raise here is weakweakweak but if you're in a game where it's 100% you're beat and drawing thin then folding might be OK - don't exactly see how you could be that sure though.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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Pot odds aside, is it too far wrong to fold when you know you are behind?

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I'm confused - how can you put pot odds aside when you're deciding whether to fold? You could be so far behind and only have one out and if the pot is big enough you still ought to call. I agree that folding to the flop raise here is weakweakweak but if you're in a game where it's 100% you're beat and drawing thin then folding might be OK - don't exactly see how you could be that sure though.

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What's so hard to understand? If you play the same players enough & know you are beat, fold. It's that easy.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

Are you seriously ignoring the pot size or are you just stating that in games you play in there isn't enough in the pot getting 9:1 because your opponents don't raise unless you're crushed?

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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Pot odds aside, is it too far wrong to fold when you know you are behind?

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I'm confused - how can you put pot odds aside when you're deciding whether to fold? You could be so far behind and only have one out and if the pot is big enough you still ought to call. I agree that folding to the flop raise here is weakweakweak but if you're in a game where it's 100% you're beat and drawing thin then folding might be OK - don't exactly see how you could be that sure though.

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What's so hard to understand? If you play the same players enough & know you are beat, fold. It's that easy.

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5th level?

There is $1,000,000 in the pot from previous betting in a NL game and your opponent pushes all in for his last $0.01 while accidentally exposing his hand which is AA. You have KK. You fold?

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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What's so hard to understand? If you play the same players enough & know you are beat, fold. It's that easy.

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This is a very unsophisticated way to think about the game.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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Are you seriously ignoring the pot size or are you just stating that in games you play in there isn't enough in the pot getting 9:1 because your opponents don't raise unless you're crushed?

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Let me make this simple......If you are sitting in a rock garden with AK off suit out of position & the flop missed you and some old 80 year old man who hasn't bet since the depression bets into you (or raises)...what do you do? Do you give him credit for some sort of hand? Or do you say...hmmm...that sumbitch is making a move on me. I'm getting odds, so what the hell...I'll call him down with my Ace high & hope I catch.

This is the kind of senario that I see alot. When these clowns get in a pot, they rarely fold which makes it very juicy. But why draw against a made hand? That is my experience in mid limit holdem & I guess I should have been more clear when I made that initial comment.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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Pot odds aside, is it too far wrong to fold when you know you are behind?

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If you know that you behind its not wrong to fold, however in the agro game you will know that you behind far too often. Jeff is 100% right about "kick me" sign and there a lot of players in that game who can read signs on the forehead pretty well.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

Brad,

You're missing the whole point.

EVERY decision is a pots odds decision. In the "rock garden" example you cite, I imagine everyone here agrees with you that it is correct to fold. But it's important to think about why you are folding in correct terms. You fold there, and not, say, in the original post, because the combined odds of catching a better card on the turn, catching a better card on the river (if the turn checks through), or showing down the best hand on the river (somehow) do not combine to be a significant enough probability to merit investing a bet, given the current pot size.

Thinking in terms of platitudes like "why draw against a made hand?" is very dangerous. I've seen many poor players spout that kind of line when they fold solid drawing hands (like flush draws on the turn) when it is very incorrect to do so. (The same poor players, in fact, who peel gutshots on the flop indiscriminately). Every situation is relative, and the key variable in almost every poker decision is pot size.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

Brad,

Thanks for the comments on the flop call.. Not sure if you've played in the Borg 40 game before, but it tends to play rather aggressively, and I definitely didn't have any reads that the flop raiser was a tight rock. In this situation with no reads on flop raiser, along with pot odds, and meta-game reasons of people taking shots at me in the future (that Jeffage and 3rdCheckRaise were referring to), IMO, I have to at least see the turn before making any other decisions in this hand...

-Eric

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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Brad,

Thanks for the comments on the flop call.. Not sure if you've played in the Borg 40 game before, but it tends to play rather aggressively, and I definitely didn't have any reads that the flop raiser was a tight rock. In this situation with no reads on flop raiser, along with pot odds, and meta-game reasons of people taking shots at me in the future (that Jeffage and 3rdCheckRaise were referring to), IMO, I have to at least see the turn before making any other decisions in this hand...

-Eric

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I have never been to the Borgata.
I have never played in this particular game.
I basically stated as much in an earlier post in this thread.

As I said in my intial post, I agree with the way you played this hand. I woulda folded the river, but if you had specific reasons for calling, then so be it.

The second paragraph in that initial post should have been worded different obviously because all games in all cardrooms do not play the same. I should have realized that I would stir up the nits with such a broad comment. My apologies.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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call on the river...AKo is most likely hand for anyone to raise UTG with--perhaps 50% of the time?...could be many other hands though (AA-JJ), so if you folded it would be no crime imho..

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Now for some actual discussion about the hand.

Villain is rarely betting AK on the river here. Why would he bet it? He already has the nut no pair hand so what does he think you will call with? I doubt he's gonna try to makke you fold a better hand here as the river didn't change much of anything. Sure the flushdraw didn't get there but he already has a busted draw beaten. If I had AKo and got to the river like that, I'd check and take my free showdown and hope you had AJ.

A8o or some other no pair is much more likley for villain to hold than AK once he bets the river only b/c the weaker his kicker, the more hands he can fold out that would have been better than his if he had simply checked behind.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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Brad,

You're missing the whole point.

EVERY decision is a pots odds decision. In the "rock garden" example you cite, I imagine everyone here agrees with you that it is correct to fold. But it's important to think about why you are folding in correct terms. You fold there, and not, say, in the original post, because the combined odds of catching a better card on the turn, catching a better card on the river (if the turn checks through), or showing down the best hand on the river (somehow) do not combine to be a significant enough probability to merit investing a bet, given the current pot size.

Thinking in terms of platitudes like "why draw against a made hand?" is very dangerous. I've seen many poor players spout that kind of line when they fold solid drawing hands (like flush draws on the turn) when it is very incorrect to do so. (The same poor players, in fact, who peel gutshots on the flop indiscriminately). Every situation is relative, and the key variable in almost every poker decision is pot size.

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I agree that poker is a situational game but to me pot odds is not the only driving force in whether to bet, call, or fold. I try to play the player as much if not more than the odds. Sorry if I don't play the way you do. FWIW, I don't ever recall folding a flush draw on the turn or chasing a gutshot.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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I try to play the player as much if not more than the odds.

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Prolly my favorite quote to hear in limit hold em b/c most of the time I'm taking money off the person who says it.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

My default line here is to call the flop raise because I am definitely getting the right price to peel.

Once I pick up the additional outs with the seven of spades on the turn I would definitely be getting my price to call a bet so I would checkraise the turn and lead at the river no matter what came.

If he three bets me on the turn, I am forced to call but can muck the river bet. Either way I am putting in three big bets to get to showdown. At least I get to take a shot at the pot with my turn checkraise.

I like to be agressive with hands like this for a lot of reasons that in my opinion get more and more important the higher you play.

In some games online an argument could be made for four betting this turn with the naked ace of spades.

I just think check call fold is too exploitable against thinking oponenents, for this hand and metagame game considerations.

FJM

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

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My default line here is to call the flop raise because I am definitely getting the right price to peel.

Once I pick up the additional outs with the seven of spades on the turn I would definitely be getting my price to call a bet so I would checkraise the turn and lead at the river no matter what came.

If he three bets me on the turn, I am forced to call but can muck the river bet. Either way I am putting in three big bets to get to showdown. At least I get to take a shot at the pot with my turn checkraise.

I like to be agressive with hands like this for a lot of reasons that in my opinion get more and more important the higher you play.

In some games online an argument could be made for four betting this turn with the naked ace of spades.

I just think check call fold is too exploitable against thinking oponenents, for this hand and metagame game considerations.

FJM

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Ya I was wondering about raising the turn also. Thinking of some hands we could make fold...

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

I think we could fold quite a few hands that an agressive opponent would be rasing this flop with. Small pocket pairs, decent aces, air. all sorts of stuff. How albut Ace king?

My main point is that if you check call the turnin the absence of a real strong read, you almost have to call the river bet from an odds standpoint. So you might as well check rasie the turn and try to get some better hands to fold. I think that a big bet is a small price to pay to keep the hand pure given the nuber of outs yo liklely have.

Re: Misplayed AK out of position
 

so we c/r, and he reraises, it's pretty much call, and check/fold a river that doesn't hit us hard ? Would you bet/fold if the A or K hit the river after we've gone 3 on the turn ?