StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Do we like or should i have played it differently?

Is it full steam ahead or am i slowing down to a raise?
River bet or is check ok?



7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.20 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (5.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___calls

5th Street - (8.80 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (14.80 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

River - (17.80 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___checks

Total pot: (17.80 BB - $35.60)

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

bet the river.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Trips tens are not a very strong hand so I would play it somewhat careful. Seat 8 seems strange to me... Hard to know what he was aiming for or if he was only holding a twopair or something like that.

I believe that a raise at 3rd street would be good because you do not have that strong hand. I think its better to represent a holding. My main objective is that two players ar holding an open A and two are holding an open J, wich i interpret as less likely that they are holding something good.

At the river i would check. The reason is that i believe that only a stronger hand would call me. And if someone hit the strong hand they was fishing for the would reraise you. Check it down is the right move (i think).

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Seat 8 completed his own BI on 3rd?? Hmmm. Shows alot of strength or he is a complete idiot. I wouldn't argue a fold on 3rd since there are overcards in the pot & your diamonds are pretty much dead. Nice catch on 4th.

Bet the river!!!! The only thing I would be worried about is pocket K's from seat 8 but he's played so passive, I wouldn't count on it. Seat 2 should realize that his heart draw is pretty much toast & shoulda folded already.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

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bet the river.

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Am I calling a raise then? Im struggling to find hands that I am better than that would raise my river bet at this point.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 8 completed his own BI on 3rd?? Hmmm. Shows alot of strength or he is a complete idiot. I wouldn't argue a fold on 3rd since there are overcards in the pot & your diamonds are pretty much dead. Nice catch on 4th.

Bet the river!!!! The only thing I would be worried about is pocket K's from seat 8 but he's played so passive, I wouldn't count on it. Seat 2 should realize that his heart draw is pretty much toast & shoulda folded already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously I would be folding on 4th if it wasn't for the T, but I can't see a fold ever here with ALL my cards live, that is usually enought to see 4th street.

BI completes (he's done this before w/ a 3 flush)and called twice was the action, not sure of what you are saying up top.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Trips tens are not a very strong hand so I would play it somewhat careful.



[/ QUOTE ]

Au contraire, my friend. Trip 10's is a very strong holding being a set and holding 3 of the cards that others need to make a high straight. It's a very strong holding! And on 4th, it's a monster.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Seat 8 completed his own BI on 3rd?? Hmmm. Shows alot of strength or he is a complete idiot. I wouldn't argue a fold on 3rd since there are overcards in the pot & your diamonds are pretty much dead. Nice catch on 4th.

Bet the river!!!! The only thing I would be worried about is pocket K's from seat 8 but he's played so passive, I wouldn't count on it. Seat 2 should realize that his heart draw is pretty much toast & shoulda folded already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously I would be folding on 4th if it wasn't for the T, but I can't see a fold ever here with ALL my cards live, that is usually enought to see 4th street.

BI completes (he's done this before w/ a 3 flush)and called twice was the action, not sure of what you are saying up top.

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You gave no reads on any of the players, so we didn't know if he always completed his own BI or never. I said I would not argue a fold on 3rd because when the BI completes his own bet, it usually is a sign of strength. Alot of experienced players don't do this except for certain circumstances & maybe as an occaisional mix it up play. It screams big hand.

Therefore, if someone raises their own BI in front of you, then it is called by 2 players...I wouldn't argue if someone said fold the 10's on third. I most likely would call one bet with your hand but certainly no more.

And all of your cards are not live on 3rd. There are several diamonds & straight cards out that could help your hand.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Trip 10s, awesome. Played perfect. The ckeck is fine.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

[ QUOTE ]

You gave no reads on any of the players, so we didn't know if he always completed his own BI or never. I said I would not argue a fold on 3rd because when the BI completes his own bet, it usually is a sign of strength. Alot of experienced players don't do this except for certain circumstances & maybe as an occaisional mix it up play. It screams big hand.

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Unless he has trips here, im still ok to call one.

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And all of your cards are not live on 3rd. There are several diamonds & straight cards out that could help your hand.

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Who said anything about st8 and/or flush cards, i simply stated that I have both tens open and the 6s.

This has to be a check IMO. At least in HE the rule is if you feel confident more than 50% that you are good AND you are comfortable calling the raise, bet for value (which this clearly would be).

I hate calling two bets on this 7th street as it could be Ks up or As up which im getting an xtra, but most likely the hand that will be raising me will be beating me and based off of the action I would have to make a cryer...

i'd rather call then have to put 2 in here.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

I have never played a stud high game this loose before but I don't think it's at all clear that you can play for trips on 3rd street.

You realize you're about a 20:1 dog to make trips on 4th right?

I'm not saying you should fold, as it seems like you have the best hand on 3rd and you do have other outs (to two pair or just just catching an overcard).

I just don't see that you can call a completion with a buried pair specifically for your trips value.

I could be wrong though... it all comes down to implied odds and I have no idea how good they are in a game like this.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bet the river.

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Am I calling a raise then? Im struggling to find hands that I am better than that would raise my river bet at this point.

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Look at it this way, since you would be getting about 20-1, I don't think you can bet/fold here, and yes, getting raised would suck.

But, what you are really laying here is 2-1 on the river bet. For every two times you are called, you break even by calling a raise the third time. You are for sure getting called by the Qs, and maybe in both spots. Qs are dead, hearts are dead, It is a great spot to bet.

So really, you could bet your hand and call a raise even if you knew you were beat 100% of the time when raised, and still show a profit on the bet.

Bet knowing you are a big fav. Call every time you are raised. (Unless you have a player listed as very tight.)

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Trips tens are not a very strong hand so I would play it somewhat careful.



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I realize that my answer was very comfusing. I ment on the river. Sense i belive that the most likely holding for the player at seat 8 who seems a bit crazy are that he has both a straight draw and maybe some kind of longshot to a flush. When you come to the river i belive that a medium trip is about an avarege winning hand. So therefore i mean play it safe at the river.

Maybe you can get called by the queens having nothing else, but I wouldnt play them myself and therefore i wouldnt count on them.

After 4th street play them as hard as you can to protect them because by then they are a monster.

I would so to speek play the hand pretty much the same way as our Hero did. But like i Said i might take the chance to put in an extra bet at the 3rd street, whick i believe could help me later on in the hand. But maybe this board are so loose so you would just helping them getting the odds instead.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

It's a very marginal call on 3rd.

Once you catch the 3rd ten, don't get cute - start hammering immediately - you'll get paid off at 1/2. The river is a clear value bet.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Bear the check is fine. A bet here is going to fold at least one hand, maybe two. The Qs are on a draw and I think the BI is also, because he really slowed down. So you're risking 1 BB and could get nothing. This is not a value bet.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Also Bear, a BI completion does not scream "BIG HAND". It means something, but not "Big Hand". With Aces and Jacks out,and a Q, its not a marginal call on 3rd (in fact maybe a raise). With this ante you got MAX value. Well played.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Not knowing anything about the bring-in, I think calling third is fine. If he's a decent player, I'd probably fold. He's not going to have a three-flush--he'd have a pocket pair larger than your Tens. If the bring-in were me, I'd most likely have QQ or AA down. Raising when three people are already in for a full bet would be less than optimal. You wouldn't get it heads-up, and I'm not looking to play a big pot with TT.

Fourth is a little weird but fine. You do kinda tip your hand, but this is $1/2 and you got people to come along for the ride anyway. I would probably have called along on fourth (maybe it gets capped anyway) and then raised fifth.

Fifth and sixth are good. I think the river is a very clear value bet. I guess it's possible that either of these guys are on a draw, but I think two pair is pretty likely for either of them, and they're going to pay off with that.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

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Not knowing anything about the bring-in, I think calling third is fine. If he's a decent player, I'd probably fold. He's not going to have a three-flush--he'd have a pocket pair larger than your Tens. If the bring-in were me, I'd most likely have QQ or AA down. Raising when three people are already in for a full bet would be less than optimal. You wouldn't get it heads-up, and I'm not looking to play a big pot with TT

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Andy - your forgetting that a J (likely dead) and an Awith the lone suit are left to act? I find this to be an easy 3rd street muck - am I wrong (Stud hi isn't my best 7 card game).

VALUE BET 7th STREET FIOR GOD SAKES! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Folding third can't be that far wrong. Aces and Jacks are both dead, so I don't think calling with TT is bad.

Especially since the Ten was coming. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

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Folding third can't be that far wrong. Aces and Jacks are both dead, so I don't think calling with TT is bad.

Especially since the Ten was coming. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously the OP is better are catching a 2 outer than I am [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I didnt notice the second A, thanks. It makes it a call for me too.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

PT stats:

Three of a kind 645 times, went to showdown 403 times. Won showdown 67%. Bet with TTT on the river.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

If he brought it in complete (as it seems like he did), I would certainly fold on third street after two overcards called the bet. I would also raise on 4th right away and hope to build a nice big pot rather than getting fancy with it - with the boards as they are, you might have cost yourself a lot of action. Of course, it worked perfectly in this instance.

And, the river is a cake bet. If you are going to play marginal hands on third, at least be sure to get full value out of them and don't fear monsters under the bed. A flush very well might not raise, fearing a full house and you will also be called by many worse hands.

Jeff

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Hero is playing 6 stud, three Qs and another 6 out. No one is going to fear a boat. If they catch the draw, they'll raise.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Perhaps, but you still have to bet this river.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

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Hero is playing 6 stud, three Qs and another 6 out. No one is going to fear a boat. If they catch the draw, they'll raise.

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and why isn't that good?

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

This thread has given me some more thought on something I've wondered about lately. The strength of trip tens versus other trips. Has anyone ever calculated before (or run simulations) on the true strength of TTT versus JJJ+ ? I don't doubt TTT runs better than JJJ but can it overcome KKK+ just because of the broadway blockers?

I'd like to see some hard data on this.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

[ QUOTE ]
This thread has given me some more thought on something I've wondered about lately. The strength of trip tens versus other trips. Has anyone ever calculated before (or run simulations) on the true strength of TTT versus JJJ+ ? I don't doubt TTT runs better than JJJ but can it overcome KKK+ just because of the broadway blockers?

I'd like to see some hard data on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could have run an equity sim on 2 dimes to find out - link.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Alright thanks TT. I went off and ran some sims, came back then went off again to run some more. It seems situational dependent. Assuming vs a lone opponent who only comes at you with broadway cards (assuming none of his match yours), and you have a choice between AAA or TTT:

Indeed, TTT is a favourite if he starts of non-paired. Otherwise you MUST choose the AAA.

Of course this may not be that helpful as you often won't know what your up against, but I suppose if i can take it to the next level (ANY 3-RANDOM BROADWAY) I can get a more generic value. In 7CS by Zee there were some pages in the back of matchups, I think they had it up to 100K simulations per match. This 2-Dimes version runs half a million and I'm surprised it seems to answere instantaneous.

I suppose the semi-pros here have them all memorized... I've been meaning to get the time to do that.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

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This 2-Dimes version runs half a million and I'm surprised it seems to answere instantaneous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, the wonders of technology.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bear the check is fine. A bet here is going to fold at least one hand, maybe two. The Qs are on a draw and I think the BI is also, because he really slowed down. So you're risking 1 BB and could get nothing. This is not a value bet.

[/ QUOTE ] Wrong. Betting 4th and the river for value are clearly correct. A good player realizes these crucual value betting opportunities. A poor player hits the 'check' button way too often.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

What do you put seats 2 and 8 on, in order to determine if 7th is a value bet?

I think seat 2 is looking for a heart based on 4th street play, and will fold Qs, specially if seat 8 calls. Seat 8 has a low st8 draw, (2s, 3s and 7s are all live). If he has a big pair wired and doesn't improved on 7th, he's folding to the Qs and the agressive nature of Hero. My headreading puts both these guys on draws, and to bet into them is not a value play. Yeah you could have the best hand here, no debate there. Its whether they will be calling on busted draws. Again check is fine because the bet has no positive expectation, both will fold if they don't make their draws, and if they do, they're raising. A value bet should be based on, not on having the best hand, but on your chances of winning the last bet when you are called (or rasied). A value bet HU, you need to be at least a 60% favorite, to compensate for the potential raise back. 3 way action, when both appear to be on draws, you need to be at least 80%.

This is not a huge mistake, given the action and the exposed cards (and yes I know about the hearts).

SLM are you impling Bear is a poor player because he made 1 check during this hand? The thinking of "marginal hand" on third is much worse, considering the exposed cards.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

I really don't understand the debate on 3rd of why it is getting as deep as everyone says it is. If all the OC were "live" this is an easy fold here.

Because Im against one live OC and two "dead" ones, why on earth would we fold here when we know the possibilities of hitting a perfect 4th street?!?!?!

Yes I agree that this was FPS when i hit my set, but I was trying to figure a way to get the most in the middle w/o losing anyone. OTOH, I guess loosing one of my villians in this spot wouldn't be a terrible thing if i was against FDs and ST8 draws....

Part of my learning curve. I am new to this game but NOT new to poker.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Try doing a little math or playing around in twodimes and you'll see why it's so marginal.

In the actual hand you caught trips on 4th and got about as much action as you could possibly hope for.

Assuming you won the pot you got 25.6:1 for your 4th street investment. However you were about 20:1 to hit, and you easily could have lost to a flush (well not so much in this case), straight, higher trips, or boat.

The times you lose on the river in this hand it costs you about 6.5 big bets.

Truly, it's a marginal call. Especially when you consider that you could easily have been raised from behind by split aces and wound up investing 2 or more bets on 3rd, which makes it almost impossible for the initial call to be +EV.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

I think it's played perfectly fine.

The 3rd street call is marginal, especially with the overs behind you that could re-raise. But otherwise, it's fine.

After fourth street, it's gravy.

Re: StudHi Great 4th street...now what??
 

Bet the river.