3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

12/24 live
UTG limps (slightly loose, straightforward), MP raises (sometimes LAG, sometimes TAG), I 3-bet next in with black KK. All fold to BB (LAG) who calls, MP1 calls.


Flop: 8h 7h 5s

BB checks, UTG bets, MP calls, I call, BB calls.

Turn: Qs
Check, UTG Bets, Raise, I 3-bet?

I have a tight image so they probably put me on QQ, KK, or AA here.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

edit to fix action plz

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

I like.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

IMO, you need to hammer that flop. 4 way action on the flop with a possible str8 out there & you just call with an overpair???

Well, if they give you credit for a big PP, then they damn sure ain't scare to gamble with you. UTG has bet into twice. Make the draws pay in this spot.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

Nice hand. Raising the flop does nothing for you if you're trying to make draws pay, the pot is too big. Anybody with a flush or straight draw would get odds even if you raise. That turn action is perfect for you (as long as you are still ahead, hopefully).

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop does nothing for you

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. It gets more money into the pot when we have the best hand. I raise this flop for value 90% of the time.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

I called in order to set up an opportunity to get multiple big bets in with a larger average equtiy edge.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I called in order to set up an opportunity to get multiple big bets in with a larger average equtiy edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

yet now you get the opportunity and you don't know what to do??


i just hammer the flop too.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

Dont take your foot off the peddle, bet\raise every street and let them pay for the draw! What could both have on turn? Just top pair, hit two pair, slow played a set, or betting the draw? If they know you are tight and they are betting into you, your hand may not be best at this point.

How did the hand end?

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, you need to hammer that flop. 4 way action on the flop with a possible str8 out there & you just call with an overpair???

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm...yeah. It's actually not a bad play.

b

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

I like it.

Not sure what the MP just woke up with. If someone caps you may have to consider folding.

b

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop does nothing for you

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. It gets more money into the pot when we have the best hand. I raise this flop for value 90% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you agree more if you had QQ or JJ?

b

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, you need to hammer that flop. 4 way action on the flop with a possible str8 out there & you just call with an overpair???

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm...yeah. It's actually not a bad play.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

...or you can just let them have free cards.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, you need to hammer that flop. 4 way action on the flop with a possible str8 out there & you just call with an overpair???

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm...yeah. It's actually not a bad play.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

...or you can just let them have free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a bet on the flop. No free card was given.

b

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, you need to hammer that flop. 4 way action on the flop with a possible str8 out there & you just call with an overpair???

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm...yeah. It's actually not a bad play.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

...or you can just let them have free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a bet on the flop. No free card was given.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. How about cheap cards then.

The only logical way I could come up with for not jamming this flop w/KK is if I wanted to keep the pot small for whatever reason (and this pot isn't that small...). Maybe if I was sure somebody out flopped me & I was considering folding if the turn was another str8/flush/scare card...then I guess just calling might be okay. But a vast majority of the time this is a raise or fold situation.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

I'm sorta mixed on this one. On the one hand, it seems like a good time to wait for a safe card and also get multiple bets in on the big streets.

On the other hand, players in this game tend to go ape-[censored] on the flop with surprisingly little. It'd be great to get a naked 6, a heart draw, or overcards to get into a dumb raising war and let you raise-cap this flop. Also, most of these players are surprisingly good (bad?) at calling one turn bet and folding for one more. If the turn goes bet, call, raise, I wouldn't be too shocked to see you take it down right there (especially with your image). I also think that MP may call many flop bets with her overcards, but might check-fold the turn when she misses.

So I think just raising the flop is the way to go. Give yourself a chance to jump into the middle of a flop raising circus with the best hand.

As played, I think you have to 3-bet this turn. MP isn't likely to slowplay a big hand on the flop - I think she'll have AQ or a hand like 99 most of the time here. She calls the flop bet because she thinks UTG is FOS, but she's scared of you having a huge hand. You've represented AK pretty well here, so she probably thinks she's good and raising with the best hand. Make BB or UTG pay through the nose with a 6 or a heart draw and expect MP to call you down because that's usually what she does when she gets this far and has a showdownable hand (assuming she's tilting a bit, which seems to be most of the time).

If UTG has a straight, so be it. I think most of the time he'll cap the turn with it, and you can get away from it and it'll cost you the same as calling down.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

A lots of loose players will throw in a flop call with an awful hand & then habitually throw it away on the turn.If you don't raise them on the flop,you're not going to get any more money out of them.Besides.the extra bets that you get in the pot from these players on the flop is 'pure'because these hands don't win very often.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, you need to hammer that flop. 4 way action on the flop with a possible str8 out there & you just call with an overpair???

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm...yeah. It's actually not a bad play.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

...or you can just let them have free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a bet on the flop. No free card was given.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. How about cheap cards then.

The only logical way I could come up with for not jamming this flop w/KK is if I wanted to keep the pot small for whatever reason (and this pot isn't that small...).

[/ QUOTE ]

The bigger the pot, the more likely I'm waiting for the turn. I could go either way with KK on this one. Waiting to the turn is valid.

Would you also jam this flop with QQ or JJ? If you do, don't say it's because you're charging (good)draws as that's not why you should be jamming it.

b

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop does nothing for you

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. It gets more money into the pot when we have the best hand. I raise this flop for value 90% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the full sentence was "Raising the flop does nothing for you if you're trying to make draws pay which was in response to the poster saying that you were giving cheap cards to draws. Your raise for value is not necessarily a bad play, but not really directly a response to what I said. Anyway, enough nittiness.

I understand pumping the flop to try to increase the pot for value but isn't this a situation straight out of HPFAP? Waiting for the bigger street to raise because the raise on the flop will fold nobody? Anyone with a legit draw has odds regardless, and a raise on the flop doesn't even make it incorrect for gutshots to draw at you. If a straight card or flush card was going to come and beat you, then you had no shot anyway. However, now you've gotten to put a lot of bets in on a big street - more money in the pot plus weaker draws that could still beat you don't have odds to call. If you raise the flop, isn't there a good chance people will check to you on turn and then all you get is 1 BB on turn from everybody? If this is a table where it's crazy and raises are going in and people are going to the river no matter what then I agree that we just pump and pray.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

ok people,
another question is what to do when BB calls 3 cold and UTG caps the turn.

Fold because we only have one out against a set (if BB has hearts)
or
Call because a few cards might help us win this big pot(like the 5c)
At this I'm getting over 20-1 but I will have to call another bet on the river, so maybe it's really only 10-1.
Is that how I should think about it?

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

You don't know what to do because you didn't raise flop and now you're facing 2 bets cold on a turn where you have no idea what you're opponenents hold. Like joker said betting the flop for value is essential, but another key thing is it tells us alot more about our opponents hands, on the turn we can re-evaluate the action and it will be alot easier to make a decision at that time with the info you have gathered on the flop by raising.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

I understand the rationale behind waiting until the turn to raise, but you can't know for sure if they will bet into you again.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

I'm going to throw my lot in with Bernie, and say I really like it.

The first time I read it, I didn't realize how coordinated the board was, but realizing how many turn cards could kill your hand made me realize that waiting is optimal.

Anyone that is advocating for a flop raise, please don't say it's to "charge draws." It's for value, plain and simple. You have the best hand; you will win a majority of the time, and you are simply making money by raising with the best hand.

However, given the way the action went, I think that waiting until the turn to raise could further increase your EV, because when you dodge a scary turn card, your equity goes up even higher, and the bet sizes double. MP could be doing the same thing you are with a smaller overpair (less likely now that the Q hit, but he could easily have AQ in this instance if he's loose) and you shouldn't let a wierd raise stop you from following through on your original plan.

Now, a cap makes our position a little more tricky. If you think that someone would cap the turn with a raggedy two pair, you are obliged to call, but if you think you're against a set or a straight...well, I'd have a hard time advocating a fold in a pot this huge (and I don't think I could bring myself to fold the turn), but you should probably entertain the probability of folding the river UI if capped on the turn.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't know what to do because you didn't raise flop and now you're facing 2 bets cold on a turn where you have no idea what you're opponenents hold. Like joker said betting the flop for value is essential, but another key thing is it tells us alot more about our opponents hands, on the turn we can re-evaluate the action and it will be alot easier to make a decision at that time with the info you have gathered on the flop by raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

They will go to war on the flop with made hand and draws, so the decision is no easier. We don't learn anything different by raising the flop for a measily .5BB. I think we know more now that BB called 3 BB cold and UTG capped.

After more thought, I think this is a turn fold even though it's only one bet to me. BB hand looks like a heart draw (but could be a weak two pair) and UTGs hand looks like a set.
I have 1 outs unless UTG decided to cap he heart draw on the turn. It's got to be 40-1 for both of them to have a draw here.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have a hard time advocating a fold in a pot this huge (and I don't think I could bring myself to fold the turn), but you should probably entertain the probability of folding the river UI if capped on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's take some balls of steal to call the turn and fold the river in a 20+BB pot.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok people,
another question is what to do when BB calls 3 cold and UTG caps the turn.

Fold because we only have one out against a set (if BB has hearts)
or
Call because a few cards might help us win this big pot(like the 5c)
At this I'm getting over 20-1 but I will have to call another bet on the river, so maybe it's really only 10-1.
Is that how I should think about it?

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think this str8forward player is capping the turn with 2 pair?

With the guy coldcalling the 3 bets, you have likely one out.

I'd fold to the cap.


b

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't know what to do because you didn't raise flop and now you're facing 2 bets cold on a turn where you have no idea what you're opponenents hold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bull. It's not that hard to figure out where these players are. The guy capping is described as str8 forward. You just woke up on the turn and 3 bet. What's he putting you on that he'd cap with? His range isn't that wide. When he caps, he knows you have likely KK, AA or maybe AQ or QQ. He's saying he can beat at least all but QQ.

If this guy will cap with 2 pair, I'd reasses his description.

b

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I understand the rationale behind waiting until the turn to raise, but you can't know for sure if they will bet into you again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes you have to take that chance. The closer to the button, the less likely they may bet into you. This guy is betting into a PFR and a PF3 bettor. He's expecting to get raised. Very good chance he'll bet again on the turn OR if he doesn't, that the MP will given you played your hand like AK.

Yes, sometimes they will check on the turn. It will happen sometimes. Thems the breaks/


b

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd have a hard time advocating a fold in a pot this huge (and I don't think I could bring myself to fold the turn), but you should probably entertain the probability of folding the river UI if capped on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's take some balls of steal to call the turn and fold the river in a 20+BB pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not when their hands are almost face up. How could you possibly think KK is good on the river UI?

b

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

I'd like this line better if the BB bet.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop does nothing for you

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. It gets more money into the pot when we have the best hand. I raise this flop for value 90% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

i won't say how much i raise this flop, but it is definitely much less than 90%

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

as played insta3bet.

i don't mind the flop/turn line at all. i'm usually raising the flop, but not all the time. as someone else already said, i would prefer it if it was actually BB that was betting, but this is fine.

Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
 

The only way you had a chance of getting someone to fold on the Turn was for the betting to go the way it did, with your 3-bet.
If you had the best hand on the Flop, the other 3 needed 24 cummulative outs to make you a money dog.
Rather than call the Flop, in the hopes the betting goes as it did on the Turn, I raise the Flop unless a tell from an opponent says "flopped str8 or set."