Coaching WARNING
 

Here it is again, I got a PM saying it was OK to repost.

Also as an aside, I have gotten several PM's from other coaches (thanks guys) saying not to be discouraged and to keep trying. They also added they would have given refunds(some even saying refunds for used sessions). Objectively - of course only positive PM's (coaches who agreed with me)would be pming.

I guess basically it comes down to what you think is fair personally and what isnt...


I hired snowbank as a coach and paid for 5 hours up front at 150$ per hour (first mistake)

After two hours I asked for a refund of the unused sessions and he told me he does not give refunds. The coaching was not bad the first hour, second hour was awful, and he was never available other then the two hours we did.

I literally begged him for a refund or to work something out for me to get partial money back, and he flat out refused saying he turned down students for me and he had no others. (prior to me coaching he was saying how he had a waiting list a mile long for students)

What did I learn? 1)Snowbank is an [censored] 2) dont pay for coaching up front but hour by hour. Your coach is not worth it if he wants money up front for multiple sessions.

I mean if the guy is good ... what does he need so many hours for up front right?

copy of the chat transcript follows

[00:10] snowbank: sup
[00:12] p: yo
[00:12] p: how was vega
[00:13] snowbank: great
[00:13] p: did u win?
[00:13] snowbank: didnt play much poker
[00:14] snowbank: was like even from gambling
[00:14] p: oh ok
[00:14] p: how have u been doing lately
[00:15] snowbank: good just recovering from vegas
[00:16] p: u got pretty wasted huh lol
[00:16] snowbank: ya
[00:17] p: so i really stopped playing...i'm broke
[00:19] snowbank: so what do u do all day
[00:19] snowbank: u work?
[00:19] p: i'm in school
[00:19] snowbank: ahh nice
[00:20] snowbank: thats right
[00:20] p: yeah kind of sucks i wanted to pay for some of school or something
[00:22] p: like pay for tuition or something for a semester
[00:22] p: pay off some loands
[00:22] p: i have so many [censored] loans
[00:28] p: so can we work out some kind of refun
[00:29] snowbank: i dont do refunds, i mean ill help give u advice how to build a roll but i cant start doing refunds
[00:29] snowbank: i turned down other people for u
[00:29] p: ?
[00:29] p: you make so much money what do you need my 450$ for
[00:29] p: we're not going to be doing any more sessions
[00:31] snowbank: i turned down other people for u, u said u wanted to go with me i said u sure u said yes
[00:32] snowbank: ive spent more time talking about stuff with u than any of my other students
[00:32] snowbank: all my other guys have great results
[00:32] p: ok but situations change....more time??? u dont talk to me at all outside of our sessions
[00:32] snowbank: so its not a result of my coaching that u lost money
[00:32] p: my situation has changed i have no money in poiker anymore...i would please lieka refund...for you the money is not a big deal for me it is i really need it
[00:33] p: you have other students that pay you ... and if you are as popular as you say you are (have a waiting list) then you should have students in no time
[00:33] p: for more coaching
[00:33] snowbank: money is a big deal to me
[00:33] snowbank: you are acting as if i can give out money or something
[00:33] p: ok so the money is a big deal...then just based on principal
[00:33] p: i should recieve a refund
[00:34] snowbank: i said i do 4 session minimums
[00:34] snowbank: thats what u signed up for
[00:34] p: PLEASE man...why are you being like this?
[00:34] p: please give me a refund
[00:34] snowbank: if u signed up for cardrunners
[00:34] snowbank1515: they would not give u a refund
[00:34] p: i dont sign up for 6 months at cardrunners
[00:34] p: you do one month at a time
[00:34] p: not 6 sessions like you
[00:34] snowbank: sorry man
[00:35] p: please man...i cant believe this
[00:35] p: youhave 450 of mine
[00:35] p: this is ridiculous
[00:35] p: i am not using your services anymore
[00:35] snowbank: u had how many sessions?
[00:35] snowbank: and so u want a refund of like 1 session?
[00:35] p: 3.. i gave you 750
[00:35] : i gave you 750!!!
[00:35] p: you have 450 of mine
[00:35] p: in unused sessions
[00:35] p: it is only fair if you are not giving me my product
[00:36] p: just as a courtesy man ... please ???
[00:36] p: you have a lot of students
[00:36] p: and a waiting line
[00:36] p: you are going to make kmoney on the studetns
[00:36] p: and you make a lot in poker
[00:36] p: for me 450 is a lot of money to me
[00:36] p: even if it's not about the money just on morality
[00:37] snowbank: that u r backing out
[00:37] snowbank: not me
[00:37] snowbank: think about it
[00:37] snowbank: u cost me students
[00:37] p: PLEASE
[00:37] snowbank: i referred them to other people
[00:37] p: i cannot use the sessions
[00:37] snowbank: than get a job seriously
[00:37] p: WHAT....that has nothign to do with you giving me a refund????
[00:37] p: please man ... please...
[00:37] snowbank: so let me get this straight
[00:38] snowbank: u cost me money from turning down students
[00:38] p: i am begging literally for a refund
[00:38] snowbank: and want me to give you money
[00:38] p: you have other students and a waiting line
[00:38] p: i can refer everyone i know to you
[00:38] snowbank: that makes no sense if u think about it
[00:38] p: we did two sessions
[00:38] snowbank: and u know that
[00:38] p: please dude jesus man please
[00:38] p: it makes total sense
[00:38] p: what is your cost missing???...we did 2 sessions in 3 weeks??? how much could you have POSSIBLY lost in other students
[00:39] p: you have a waiting list and students you ahve now
[00:39] p: if your problem is turning down students and $ you make so much in poker and other students
[00:40] p: 450 is a month of rent for me man
[00:41] p: are you there????
[00:44] p: are you still there?
[00:46] p: can you please say something if you are there
[00:47] p: i am begging you....please dude....
[00:53] pokersanjuan: are you there?
[01:26] pokersanjuan: i need to go to bed it is 130 here
[01:27] pokersanjuan: if u r there can we please talk more
[05:01] *** "snowbank" signed off at Tue Mar 06 05:01:42 2007.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

First.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

ok, I might be off but the way I see it is that snowbank is in the right here if he can prove that he really did turn down other students in order to provide coaching for pokersanjuan. Because if he did refer potential students to other people then pokersanjuan not upholding his end of the deal costs snowbank money. so, is that true?

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess basically it comes down to what you think is fair personally and what isnt

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, that is what it should come down to. You seem to be confusing what's fair and what's in your best interests however. The agreement you made was to prepay X$ for sessions. You paid the money and the sessions have been made available to you. Your agreement is fulfilled. There was no stipulation that you could get a refund on unused sessions, and therefore no such stipulation exists. There is nothing unfair about you not recieving a refund for sessions you don't use.

That's not to say that refunding your money wouldn't be in both of your best interests. Yours because you get your money back, snobank's because negative word of mouth is 10 times more effective than positive word of mouth, and reputations are often impossible to repair once damaged.

It's unfortunate that this went down this way. Don't make it worse than it has to be by taking a "if I'm going down I'm taking you with me" attitude. Argue for what you want, but do so in an adult manner. If you don't get what you want, take it like a man.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

why does it matter if he has other referals or not, they both had an agreement, one side no longer is willing to use the remaining time for coaching (because he went bust) he still cna technically get coaching but just not playing poker currently.

he can still learn withouth having money in his account.

the only reason he watns his refund is so he can get bakc to playing poker wihtout havin to find a way to deposit.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

If I'm reading this right, you bought a bundle of sessions and now want the unused portion refunded. If you wanted to pay for individual sessions, you should have negotiated that arrangement upfront. It's not Snowbanks fault that you went busto and can no longer make use of them. Now, if he was refusing to do the remaining sessions, then you would have a right to a refund, but it sounds like that is not the case.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
why does it matter if he has other referals or not, they both had an agreement, one side no longer is willing to use the remaining time for coaching (because he went bust) he still cna technically get coaching but just not playing poker currently.

he can still learn withouth having money in his account.

the only reason he watns his refund is so he can get bakc to playing poker wihtout havin to find a way to deposit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it matters because if OP won't be using his coaching he's paying for a service that he won't receive, and that doesn't cost snowbank anything so him keeping the money by saying he has a no refund clause is kinda sketchy.

but again, from a business standpoint snowbank hasn't done anything wrong so it's his decision.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

You made an agreement (basically a contract), and you should uphold it.

The lesson from this to everyone is basically find out ahead of time if you can cancel for a partial refund if you prepay for coaching since you decide you aren't getting anything out of it.

The best and probably most honest thing you can do at this point is to post a detailed review of your coaching experience with him. What did you want to get out of it that you didn't? Where did he [censored] up?

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

Also, the first time I ever heard of no refunds from him was this conversation.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, you might have some (shaky) ground to stand on in your OP but this is just ridiculous. It's not snowbank's fault you lost after one coaching session when you clearly were underrolled.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you had the roll for 1/2, and proceeded to lose all of it, then it is your fault for not moving down. Also, you should have known that 10ptbb is unattainable these days.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well there's your first warning.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]



That's not to say that refunding your money wouldn't be in both of your best interests. Yours because you get your money back, snobank's because negative word of mouth is 10 times more effective than positive word of mouth, and reputations are often impossible to repair once damaged.



[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think he is wrong for not wanting to give a refund but I doubt others will want his coaching given he obviously cares more about a little bit of money then being a flexible and understanding businessman. Makes me wonder if i dealt with him would he be flexible about anything else or do I have to listen to his every demand.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

sanjuan:

1. What was your bankroll before you payed snobank for coaching?

2. Clarify: The coaching was not bad the first hour, second hour was awful,

3. Clarify: ...and he was never available other then the two hours we did.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, you might have some (shaky) ground to stand on in your OP but this is just ridiculous. It's not snowbank's fault you lost after one coaching session when you clearly were underrolled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't one session. I am NOT blaming him for losing.

I only want a refund for unused sessions.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

Over how many hands? What was your roll in $?

You are implying that your losses were snowbank's fault. If you're making this kind of implication, you had better be prepared to back it up with documented facts.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

Well, he doesn't 'owe' you the money, but i imagine 90% of coaches listed on twoplustwo would refund the portion you havent received lessons on.

As an aside on Snowbank, when we played at party a lot together, he asked my 'supbro name.' I told him and asked his. He didnt answer, but said he would pm me. He never did of course. I asked him a couple of times later on party, same outcome. Not a huge deal, but does make this scenario not as surprising.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, you might have some (shaky) ground to stand on in your OP but this is just ridiculous. It's not snowbank's fault you lost after one coaching session when you clearly were underrolled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't one session. I am NOT blaming him for losing.

I only want a refund for unused sessions.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you aren't blaming him for losing then you shouldn't have made this post:

[ QUOTE ]
I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

...as it is completely irrelevant.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

IF snowbank was and is unavailable then I think he owes you the money. Just from a quick read through your post though, it looks like he may have been unavailable for a short time when he was in vegas. I basically think that the only way he owes you the money is if he's unwilling to give you the lessons now to the best of his ability.

edit to say: If I was in snowbank's position, I would refund the money on request. But, I think it's basically his choice.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
sanjuan:

1. What was your bankroll before you payed snobank for coaching?

2. Clarify: The coaching was not bad the first hour, second hour was awful,

3. Clarify: ...and he was never available other then the two hours we did.

[/ QUOTE ]


A little over 4k.

The first half hour he told me things that I thought were valuable. We chatted through IM for one hour and that was how the coaching worked. For the rest of that session and our sessions after that it was literally "you need to read 2p2 and post there". And pep talk stuff like "do you think jordan had a coach? no he needed to put the work in himself which is waht you need to do".

Maybe his agg style didn't work for me...

He wasn't available as in I go to 3bet and the coaches are always availalbe on aim.

The ONLY time I talked to him was during our two hours sessions. Then he says he made all this time for me?? Where was this time???

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

What reputable services exist out there that you prepay for and can't get a partial refund on unused services? This just isn't good business on snowbank's part - but bad, unethical business isn't always illegal so it's tough cookies for OP.

OP - I doubt he advertised that he could get students to a 10PTBB/100 winrate at 1/2NL. If he mentioned that figure at all, it was probably him saying that was his OWN winrate (which is questionable). If he indicated he'd get you winning 10ptbb/100 at 1/2NL then that is just flatly ridiculous and false advertising. You also should have known better.

What about his coaching didn't you like? What did you like? It's not his fault you lost your bankroll, that's your own fault. My opinion is it would be fair to refund you half your remaining balance ($225).

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess basically it comes down to what you think is fair personally and what isnt

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, that is what it should come down to. You seem to be confusing what's fair and what's in your best interests however. The agreement you made was to prepay X$ for sessions. You paid the money and the sessions have been made available to you. Your agreement is fulfilled. There was no stipulation that you could get a refund on unused sessions, and therefore no such stipulation exists. There is nothing unfair about you not recieving a refund for sessions you don't use.

That's not to say that refunding your money wouldn't be in both of your best interests. Yours because you get your money back, snobank's because negative word of mouth is 10 times more effective than positive word of mouth, and reputations are often impossible to repair once damaged.


[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.

i don't want to explain the physics of it, but you know the sound when you open a can of soda? that's the sound of buying a whole soda.

it'd be a very nice gesture if snowbank gave the money back, but this is the difference between buying x sessions and buying 1 at a time. don't act like you're entitled to a refund.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, you might have some (shaky) ground to stand on in your OP but this is just ridiculous. It's not snowbank's fault you lost after one coaching session when you clearly were underrolled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't one session. I am NOT blaming him for losing.

I only want a refund for unused sessions.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you aren't blaming him for losing then you shouldn't have made this post:

[ QUOTE ]
I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

...as it is completely irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely, the way you described it OP, you are saying that you were doing fine grinding breakeven and then after Snowbank got ahold of you, you just automatically started losing every allin and he had you burning money and whatever.

It's not snowbank's fault you went bust, and it's not like he was refusing to give you the sessions you paid for, but there's no reason for him to give you a refund if you seeked out his service.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]


i don't want to explain the physics of it, but you know the sound when you open a can of soda? that's the sound of buying a whole soda.


[/ QUOTE ]

Also, if you 'agree' to pay for services in advance and those services are poor or not as advertised you dont think you deserve your money back? If you pay a construction worker up front to build you a circle pool and he builds half a square above ground pool and you say "listen keep the money I paid for what you did, but refund me for unused services b/c this is not what I want" you dont think you should get money back? And like above he says "well all my other clients liked my square above ground pool...FU see ya"

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]


If you aren't blaming him for losing then you shouldn't have made this post:

[ QUOTE ]
I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

...as it is completely irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

was a reply to a question above me

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

I can see both sides. Personally, I would think/hope snowbank would just give him his $450 back and make him happy to go away rather than deal with this situation publicly on the forum. I don't think he HAS to, I just think he should. It sucks that you may have lost business or money, and maybe this is a tough stretch here, but companies do refunds all the time, and it pays to keep customers happy and your business in a positive light.

I don't think snowbank did anything wrong and if he keeps the money he still did nothing wrong. But if it comes time for me to pick a coach I can't say I'll be in line to use him, given the way he handled the situation here.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

Over how many hands? What was your roll in $?

You are implying that your losses were snowbank's fault. If you're making this kind of implication, you had better be prepared to back it up with documented facts.

[/ QUOTE ]

pokersanjuan, this is exactly what I told you in your other thread.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


i don't want to explain the physics of it, but you know the sound when you open a can of soda? that's the sound of buying a whole soda.


[/ QUOTE ]

Also, if you 'agree' to pay for services in advance and those services are poor or not as advertised you dont think you deserve your money back? If you pay a construction worker up front to build you a circle pool and he builds half a square above ground pool and you say "listen keep the money I paid for what you did, but refund me for unused services b/c this is not what I want" you dont think you should get money back? And like above he says "well all my other clients liked my square above ground pool...FU see ya"

[/ QUOTE ]

This is your fault for blindly giving someone, whose style you do not know, 1/4 of your roll for coaching sessions. Maybe you should've looked into how he played/coached before you went so far as to give him 5 sessions at once.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

I teach golf at my job and sometimes sell lessons in groups. If someone decided that they no longer wanted to use a portion of that group, I would be more than happy to refund their money. Keeping it is just bad business.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

Over how many hands? What was your roll in $?

You are implying that your losses were snowbank's fault. If you're making this kind of implication, you had better be prepared to back it up with documented facts.

[/ QUOTE ]

pokersanjuan, this is exactly what I told you in your other thread.

[/ QUOTE ]


I am NOT implying my losses are HIS fault. I think I should recieve a refund for unused coaching hours. The first I ever heard of no refund was THIS CONVERSATION.

I simply told him I am not playing poker anymore and will not be using his services. Not that they were that great to begin with.

He was never available, and except for our first 30 min together the sessions constituted NOTHING.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

For the folks that are flatly saying "you paid X for Y so you are entitled to nothing" -

1) Well what should he do at this point? You think he's actually going to get quality coaching for the 3 hours he has left after all this? He's got $450 dangling in the wind and no viable recourse.

2) Do you realize in the busines world that if you are offering a prepaid service and intend on not refunding any unused services, you need to be extremely specific in regard to that in your contracts - and even then it's *very* difficult to uphold if it comes to litigation?

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

even michael jordan had a coach.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think snowbank did anything wrong and if he keeps the money he still did nothing wrong. But if it comes time for me to pick a coach I can't say I'll be in line to use him, given the way he handled the situation here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed.

psj, sounds like you didn't hire the best coach out there. I'd like to stick up for a 2+2 regular like Snowbank, but he's handled this situation poorly. I think what he's done from his end of the bargain outweighs the naivety of psj.

[ QUOTE ]
This is your fault for blindly giving someone, whose style you do not know, 1/4 of your roll for coaching sessions. Maybe you should've looked into how he played/coached before you went so far as to give him 5 sessions at once.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's ridiculous. A lot of coaches ask for multiple sessions payment up front. Just b/c psj may not have been wise enough to hire a better coach doesn't mean he deserves to get shortchanged in the quality of coaching received. He did pay $150/hr, and he deserves quality coaching & service from for that.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the folks that are flatly saying "you paid X for Y so you are entitled to nothing" -

1) Well what should he do at this point? You think he's actually going to get quality coaching for the 3 hours he has left after all this? He's got $450 dangling in the wind and no viable recourse.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well I think that's the big thing now - I doubt he will get quality coaching at this point (I know nothing about snowbank, maybe he will, just a guess) and in that case, I think he should get a refund.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[/ QUOTE ]

bankroll management skills are goot.

I want to play 200NL - sadly my bankroll dictates that I can only play 25NL right now - so thats where I play.

Lets assume that "having the roll to play at 200NL" means you started with $6k.

Once you lost $3k of that did it not possibly seem like a good idea to drop to $100NL where you'd once again have a comfortable 30buys to play with?

and then when you lost half of that did it not occur that now perhaps $50NL was the place to play poker... (?)

You can't blame snowbank for YOU losing your roll.

Your results in poker are all entirely your own fault. Passing the buck here won't wash.

If it was me being the coach I'd have given you a refund personally - tho I would have been [censored] off about it - I would want to have "happy customers" more than anything else as I understand what positive and negative feedback can do to ones reputation, and that my reputation would be worth a crapload more to me than $450 directly and possibly other lost opportunities indirectly - but thats just me personally.

When you agree to pay someone money for a product or service you form a legally binding contract. This contract was upheld by both parties - you don't have a leg to stand on.

Buyer beware. When you negotiate a deal you must always always always make dam sure you have read the fine print and understand exactly what you are getting yourself into if x happens or if y happens - that way this kind of situation never happens.

If Snowbank had told you in advance there were no refunds - would you have taken the lessons? If he did turn away business as a result of taking you then you have cost HIM money. He is well within his rights to keep your cash if he chooses to.

Welcome to the real world. You're lucky that you are learning a valuable life lesson and it's only cost you $450 while you are still young. It takes some people a lot longer to learn this - and costs some people a lot lot more.

If I were you I'd give up on this money now that I've said my piece as clearly further whining about it isn;t going to help me.

I'd work out a way to get a job and a small income so I could pay off my loans and meet my expenses - and get together a small bankroll for $25NL - and I'd grind and I'd grind and I'd grind - and once I'd got back to 200NL I'd make dam sure that bankroll management skills were very high on my list of priorities.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am NOT implying my losses are HIS fault. I think I should recieve a refund for unused coaching hours. The first I ever heard of no refund was THIS CONVERSATION.


[/ QUOTE ]

Then you have said it yourself. There was no agreed upon stipulation with respect to refunds on unused sessions, and therefore no such stipulation exists. If you conclude that the lack of stipulation means that you get a refund, then this is an example of you confusing what you are entitled to with what's in your best interests.

This is the essence of "buyer beware." You made a mistake by not fully understanding what it was you were buying. Now your best hope is to convince snowbank that it is also in his best interests to refund your money.

This may suprise you, but I'm actually on your side. IMO Snowbank would be foolish to not refund your unused sessions at the bare minimum. Not because he owes you anything, but because it's bad buisness not to.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

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When you agree to pay someone money for a product or service you form a legally binding contract. This contract was upheld by both parties - you don't have a leg to stand on.

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You're really shooting from the hip with little knowledge of the law. You saw this on some court TV show or heard it from someone. The contract was not upheld by both parties, as services have not been fully rendered. He did not get the full 5 hours, and then just say it wasn't good enough and he wants a refund. Any "contract" they had was informal, probably verbal but otherwise on an unverifiable medium like email - and definitely a far cry from a signed hard copy.

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Welcome to the real world. You're lucky that you are learning a valuable life lesson and it's only cost you $450 while you are still young. It takes some people a lot longer to learn this - and costs some people a lot lot more.

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True that, but it doesn't make the situation right or okay. It's not like there is nothing that can be done.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

1) When I got coaching from snowbank I also payed him upfront, never had any problems.
2) He was VERY clear that I was paying for 4 coaching lessons before hand and he wasn't doing any less.
3) Judging from your OP you went down in flames because of your OWN mistakes, you can't blame snowbank for this.
4) He never indicated that you will get a refund if you don't want to complete the lessons, and you clearly didn't ask for this either.
5) I'm sure that snowbank wouldn't mind to do the remaining lessons, even though you don't have money online they are still worthwhile your time.
6) I am backing up snowbank 100%, I find it very disturbing that you are trying to destroy his good name. He's very clear in the chat above, get the lessons or leave it by this. Snowbank is completely in his right here.

Re: Coaching WARNING
 

Matrix just because you're a mod shouldn't allow you to post long, boring responses, especially since now I cannot ignore you.