high stakes limit
 

Party Poker 100/200 Hold'em (2 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Button posts a blind of $100.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button (poster) 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 3.50 BB

Re: high stakes limit
 

What type of answers are you looking for without reads here?

Re: high stakes limit
 

um, standard?

Re: high stakes limit
 

Try the HU forum. Personally I call down w/A high HU in a decent size post but I don't play much HU.

Re: high stakes limit
 

Either your opponent is REALLY bad or you are.

Re: high stakes limit
 

Might be an ok fold depending on what you know about the other guy. However, if you play every A5 like this HU against competent opponents, you'll be broke very soon. I'll guarantee you that.

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you play every A5 like this HU against competent opponents, you'll be broke very soon. I'll guarantee you that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

-DeathDonkey

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you play every A5 like this HU against competent opponents, you'll be broke very soon. I'll guarantee you that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

i would say folding every time is far better than calling down every time.

me, i would peel if my opponent checks a lot of turns. put a bd flush draw and i would peel eveyr time.

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]

me, i would peel if my opponent checks a lot of turns. put a bd flush draw and i would peel eveyr time.

[/ QUOTE ]

BDSD FTW

Re: high stakes limit
 

<font color="blue"> i would say folding every time is far better than calling down every time.
</font>

Folding every time might lose less than calling down every time, but it can't be FAR better (you'd still go broke).

Besides, I don't think anyone's suggesting to call down every time. I'm certainly not.

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
um, standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

My standard answer would be c/r flop. But I'm crazy like that.

Re: high stakes limit
 

I think if you need help with this you are playing the wrong game.

This decision has so many different factors when playing heads up. Recent history, reads of the player here, his perception of you... all things which are hard to address here with this limited information.

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
um, standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

My standard answer would be c/r flop. But I'm crazy like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love players like u. get me off the hands u beat and let me put in more bets with my pairs that you are behind.

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
um, standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

My standard answer would be c/r flop. But I'm crazy like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love players like u. get me off the hands u beat and let me put in more bets with my pairs that you are behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? Are you guys serious? Have you ever even played HU above $100-$200? I'm not even bluffing here! I'll be check/raising the best hand often enough!

If you really don't understand that, how are you not broke? The only answer is you don't play against decent players HU.

Re: high stakes limit
 

Ah 5h is a dog to a random hand on this flop. Also, you are out of position, and the opponent 3 bet you, which usually means something, as much as "high limit players" might deny it. If you don't understand this, how are you not broke?

Re: high stakes limit
 

huhu hands without a histroy are pointless.

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ah 5h is a dog to a random hand on this flop. Also, you are out of position, and the opponent 3 bet you, which usually means something, as much as "high limit players" might deny it. If you don't understand this, how are you not broke?

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you guys smoking?!!! Let me in on it!


First of all, this hand isn't even a dog to a pretty powerful Ks,Js on this flop (a hand that would no doubt be 3-betting pre-flop)!!

Second, the big blind could have hands worse than KJs.

Third, a check/raise gives you the initiative. There are many turn cards that make it difficult for some better hands to call. Remember how willing Victor is to outplay a check/raise here by being willing to fold hands (he THINKS) are behind, while letting the sb (bluff) his money off when Vic is ahead. Unfortunately, he conveniently fails to mention which hands he imagines as being ahead or behind.

The bottom line is A5s is not a piece of cheese heads-up! Yet, you guys want to play it like it is on a Q76 rainbow board! Like I said, you'll go broke routinely laying this hand down in this spot.

Also understand, I'm not saying to take it to the river EVERY time! I even said in my first response that check/folding can be ok in the right spot, against the right opponent. And I'm certainly not saying to "call" it down every time as Victor originally misinterpreted me as saying. Good players proceed as they get more information. What I'm saying is that so far, you don't have enough info to lay this hand down! You're playing heads-up and the BB 3-bet you. So what? Do you really think you can pinpoint his hand to being better than A5s to this point?

Re: high stakes limit
 

Except for the fact that A5s is a dog to the set of random hands on a Q 7 6 board. The fact that you are out of position makes it worse. It's not complicated at all. Ace high is extremely overrated by most inexperienced heads up players. When you make it to the river for other reasons, it's often correct to call with A high. However, building a large pot OOP with a hand where everyone folds worse hands and calls with better hands is not how to win at poker.

Re: high stakes limit
 

In addition, I don't want to say this is just a simulation problem. The only reason i brought that up is to show that A5h is worse than average on this flop. The real issue, like with all heads up, comes down to playability. You are out of position, so your opponent can control the pot size. It's a terrible spot. You do have to peel sometimes against certain opponents, but raising is just giving away money against anyone semi-competant.

Re: high stakes limit
 

"Do you really think you can pinpoint his hand to being better than A5s to this point? "

rofl, do you have pokerstove?

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]


The bottom line is A5s is not a piece of cheese heads-up!

[/ QUOTE ]

Both camps have good points...

Re: high stakes limit
 

<font color="blue"> Except for the fact that A5s is a dog to the set of random hands on a Q 7 6 board. </font>

Explain what you mean by this.

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Except for the fact that A5s is a dog to the set of random hands on a Q 7 6 board. </font>

Explain what you mean by this.

[/ QUOTE ]

flop Q76, you have A5s. he has a random hand. he is ahead.

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, I don't want to say this is just a simulation problem. The only reason i brought that up is to show that A5h is worse than average on this flop. The real issue, like with all heads up, comes down to playability. You are out of position, so your opponent can control the pot size. It's a terrible spot. You do have to peel sometimes against certain opponents, but raising is just giving away money against anyone semi-competant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so you easily could be starting with the best hand. But the flop now comes Q76r and this is such a terrible spot that you choose to...

<font color="blue"> The only reason i brought that up is to show that A5h is worse than average on this flop. </font>

What do you mean worse than average for this flop? This flop might be completely irrevelant! A flop of QJ9, JT9, or one with color, I might see your point. But what is it specifically about Q76 that makes you say A5s is worse than "average"?

The fact is, in HU play, the sb raises a lot pf. The bb knowing this, re-raises a lot. Because of his position, he doesn't always need better than A5s to make this re-raise. It's perfectly reasonable for him to make it with a hand like any suited king, small to mid suited connectors, JTs, baby pocket pairs, etc. Now if your strategy is to check/fold viable ace type hands just because they missed the flop, you're doomed!

You're saying (or someone said above), that it's ok to peel one against some opponents (assuming to fold the turn if unimproved), well I say that's ok too. I never said otherwise. If you think I'm saying to take ace-high to showdown every time you're badly misunderstanding me.

What I AM saying is that A5s will be the best hand often enough to where you'll be giving up way to much to simply be done with it every time you take a flop and it comes Q76s.

Re: high stakes limit
 

"
The fact is, in HU play, the sb raises a lot pf. The bb knowing this, re-raises a lot."

profound stuff.

Re: high stakes limit
 

Exactly what and where do you play Victor?

Re: high stakes limit
 

You seem very adept at making smart-ass comments, without saying anything of substance. To the point where you're doing little more than trolling. Either SAY something other than stupid 1-liners, or quit the thread. So far, I've given lengthy explanations for my position, while you've done nothing more than make silly quips that serve only to make you feel like you're smarter/better than you are. That's becoming all too obvious and I'm done trying to have a worthwhile discussion with you about this. All I have left to say is good luck with your heads up play. It looks like you're going to need a lot of it when not up against someone completely incompetent.

Re: high stakes limit
 

Hi Lestat,

Are you familiar with pokerstove (www.pokerstove.com) ? It's a simulation tool that allows you to calculate your equity against a range of hands. This is the viewpoint from which Victor and Glenn are saying A5s is a dog to a random hand - using this equity simulator A5s is less than 50% to win against the range of all hands. Of course you could say his range is more defined than that since he 3 bet preflop, and you might be able to construct a range that you would be &gt;50% against on that board, but I would guess it is much easier and much more likely that any smaller range you construct would put you as a more significant dog than {all hands}.

It looks to me like you are taking a micro-economic viewpoint to this hand and they are taking a macro-economic one.

-DeathDonkey

Re: high stakes limit
 

I'm not that familiar with pokerstove. I have it, but don't use it much. Can you give me an example of how you would input the range of ALL hands? I mean, do you sit there and separately input A5s, vs. AK, AQ,... JTs, etc.?

All I know is that A5s is going to be ahead of many hands (even when 3-bet). I play a lot of HU and know this from experience (I admit NOT from any formal study of simulations). When playing HU the sb will raise pf with a wide range of hands and subsequently be 3-bet by an even wider range (this is only not true when the bb plays a weaker game, and in some other rare/isolated instances).

If you run A5s against other 3-bettable non-ace hands, such as KJs, et al., I'm pretty sure A5s is NOT a dog on a Q76 flop (that's without analysis of simulations, but I'm willing to bet that's right. Again, this from tons of experience playing HU. If I'm that wrong here, then I should be the one expected to be broke and that's far from the case and I've played a great deal against some pretty tough competition at high stakes.) So I can't be that far off here, if at all.

I realize the disadvantage of of position along with the futile strategy of taking any ace to the river. But even if I am taking a micro-economic viewpoint vs. a macro one, micro edges are everything HU! You cannot wait until you have a safe, large edge against good opponents.

What's frustrating me, is that I keep hearing how A5s is a dog against the "range of ALL hands" on this flop. This doesn't say anything without providing some examples and lines of play vs. some of these hands. So please help me out. Either provide some real world examples, or explain how you're using stove to arrive at this very rigid (and myopic in my opinion), conclusion that check/folding will almost always be preferrable to check/raising here.

[edit:] Also please note that I haven't even begun to argue any merit of the minor backdoor straight potential of A5 here. Granted, it's minor, but it still adds to A5's value.

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you run A5s against other 3-bettable non-ace hands, such as KJs, et al., I'm pretty sure A5s is NOT a dog on a Q76 flop

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would this even matter? Are you trying to say that you're going to get all his ace high hands to fold? If so, wow. Otherwise, it's just stating the obvious. Of course when you omit a ton of better hands from his range, you're going to come out on top. A6 through AK is a huge amount of hands and pretty much all of them should be included in his range.

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
Might be an ok fold depending on what you know about the other guy. However, if you play every A5 like this HU against competent opponents, you'll be broke very soon. I'll guarantee you that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to hear some concrete examples too.

Lestat,

How would you play this against a competent opponent HU? How often are c/c vs c/r this flop? For each of those flop lines, how do you plan to proceed on the turn?

And say you c/r the flop and he calls, and you fire again on the turn.... how do you expect him to respond with: A8, AJ, KJ, 44, plus anything else you think is relevant?

Re: high stakes limit
 

Lestat,

Let me pre-face this by saying that I am not a HU player and have never spent much time studying it, but that doesn't matter for what I am going to say.

"I'm not that familiar with pokerstove. I have it, but don't use it much. Can you give me an example of how you would input the range of ALL hands? I mean, do you sit there and separately input A5s, vs. AK, AQ,... JTs, etc.?"

edit: To answer your question. No. Pokerstove does that for you and then gives you the overall result. See below.

This is what everyone else is talking about:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Board: Qc 6d 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.096% 44.03% 02.07% 471171 22144.00 { Ah5h }
Hand 1: 53.904% 51.83% 02.07% 554731 22144.00 { random }
</pre><hr />

Also, if villian will only reraise pre-flop with the top 20% of all hands:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Board: Qc 6d 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.934% 30.83% 02.10% 65622 4477.00 { Ah5h }
Hand 1: 67.066% 64.96% 02.10% 138274 4477.00 { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
</pre><hr />

Or, maybe I don't know anything about HU and maybe they are reraising with the top 35% of all hands:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Board: Qc 6d 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.956% 34.24% 03.71% 124418 13486.00 { Ah5h }
Hand 1: 62.044% 58.33% 03.71% 211940 13486.00 { 55+, A2s+, K3s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A4o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
</pre><hr />

Re: high stakes limit
 

lestat, you have done nothing but insult me and question my ability in this thread. i have not attacked you at all.

heres some examples:

"What are you guys smoking?!!! Let me in on it! "

"If you really don't understand that, how are you not broke? The only answer is you don't play against decent players HU. "

"Exactly what and where do you play Victor? " wow u play higher than me congrats.

"All I have left to say is good luck with your heads up play. It looks like you're going to need a lot of it when not up against someone completely incompetent. "

no, im not gonna discuss this with you anymore bc you are obv a selfrighteous douchebag prick and i have no desire to help your game out. secondly, bc plenty of ppl have contacte me telling me not to educate the fish, rofl.

i will say 2 things. first, its possible you are fckn awesome hu player and crush tough opponents are awesoem at life and play higher than i can dream. but that is doesnt mean you dont misplay certain situations.

secondly, soooooootttttttedness is absolutely irrelevant on this flop hahahahaha.

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you run A5s against other 3-bettable non-ace hands, such as KJs, et al., I'm pretty sure A5s is NOT a dog on a Q76 flop (that's without analysis of simulations, but I'm willing to bet that's right. Again, this from tons of experience playing HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

i will take this bet for any amount.

Re: high stakes limit
 

*Uh, I think the insults were started the other way around with the first... "I love playing people like you!". Whatever...

*You've already educated me beyond belief! This pokerstove is awesome stuff!

*I never said I don't misplay hands. It wasn't even my intention to advocate a check/raise (see my first response). My main point was that throwing this hand away every single time on the flop every time is sure disaster in a heads up match. You got me sucked into being the devil's advocate with you're "Loving to play against people like me" remark. I still stand by what I said. You should NOT be throwing this hand away EVERY time and check/folding should NOT be the routine play here.

*How high I play (or you play), doesn't matter, except for that this is a high limit forum which assumes opponents won't be weak fishes. And you can only be successful check/folding this flop every time in this situation to a weak fish. Again, I refer you to my *first* response, where I indicated the check/fold may have been fine. I certainly didn't lambast it. I only got more involved after your initial snide comment to me.

I could go on, but I'm too busy playing around with this pokerstove and want to get back to it. Thanks!

Re: high stakes limit
 

lestat, about the bet?

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you run A5s against other 3-bettable non-ace hands, such as KJs, et al., I'm pretty sure A5s is NOT a dog on a Q76 flop (that's without analysis of simulations, but I'm willing to bet that's right. Again, this from tons of experience playing HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

i will take this bet for any amount.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I'm using my pokerstove, I see that you're right. But poker is not played in a vaccuum, or on a simulator for that matter. I'm still willing to bet that check/folding the flop every time, won't perform as well as mixing it up in a real game. Want to take that bet?

Re: high stakes limit
 

Heads-up play (at least for me), is mostly about rhythm. There's a constant tempo that's being set. To the point, where I'll sometimes forego what I know to be a mathematically +EV situation. The converse is true as well. I'll sometimes purposely take a little bit the worst of it.

I use math as a guideline, not in a super strict, end all-be all fashion. There's too much "feel" involved. This is how I know a guy like Victor who only wants to talk simulations, can't be playing against tough competition. The more math you know, the better. But it doesn't replace "feel" and hand reading. Straight math will only beat soft competition.

Re: high stakes limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you run A5s against other 3-bettable non-ace hands, such as KJs, et al., I'm pretty sure A5s is NOT a dog on a Q76 flop (that's without analysis of simulations, but I'm willing to bet that's right. Again, this from tons of experience playing HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

i will take this bet for any amount.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I'm using my pokerstove, I see that you're right. But poker is not played in a vaccuum, or on a simulator for that matter. I'm still willing to bet that check/folding the flop every time, won't perform as well as mixing it up in a real game. Want to take that bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

how daft are you??? that wasn't what Victor ever argued

Re: high stakes limit
 

Amazing that such an innocent post that I thought no one would pay attention to has caused such heated debate. Lestat, I don't think anyone is disputing that making an occassional play for the pot or even peeling on the flop is fine now and again. They are merely stating that if you pugnaciously fight for every pot with a hand like this is this situation, you're going to be in some bad spots and have a lot of tough decisions to make, therefore losing money. As Glenn stated, you are out of position and your opponent gets to control the pot size. Couple this up with the fact that you have a less than marginal hand once the flop arrives(an overcard that may or may NOT be live and a poor backdoor draw to a pipedream straight) and you have good reason to let it go -most- of the time(80% but obviously opponent-dependant).