The Doug Show
 

Great bellagio 30/60. 8-handed. Everyone at the table may think I'm maniacal at this point. I raised or 3bet 4 of the last 5 hands. UTG limp, next guy (new to table, aggressive in small sample size) raises. I 3-bet AsQc. Bad CO and super-bad button call. limper folds, raiser calls.

Flop: Jd6d2h. checked to me, I bet, all three call.

Turn: 9d checked to me, I bet again?

Re: The Doug Show
 

No, you give up.

Re: The Doug Show
 

Tempting, but I check. 9 isn't the best card in the world. If the board paired or a low card came I'd fire again.

Re: The Doug Show
 

Nah, check fold.

Re: The Doug Show
 

because there are 3 diamonds on board, that takes away 2 of our outs to improve. If the board didn't have a 3 flush, then I would consider a bet

Re: The Doug Show
 

yeah, I bet again. You get low pps to give up and once they do, you're winning they hand. You've got no reason to believe someone has a jack, nor do you have any reason to believe they have a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Quit thinking so hard and bet.

Re: The Doug Show
 

I like the pre-flop 3-bet, but I think the flop is an easy check-fold. When you have a crazy image you make money by bluffing less and value betting the blood out of your opponents.

Betting the turn is spewage. The only way a bet would make sense is if you knew that anyone with a pair: (a) did not also have a diamond draw; and (b) had players left to act after you bet.

Re: The Doug Show
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like the pre-flop 3-bet, but I think the flop is an easy check-fold. When you have a crazy image you make money by bluffing less and value betting the blood out of your opponents.

Betting the turn is spewage. The only way a bet would make sense is if you knew that anyone with a pair: (a) did not also have a diamond draw; and (b) had players left to act after you bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I"m sorry, I can't agree

I bet this again. We 3-bet preflop representing strength, we bet the flop with no resistant as far as I can tell noone has diamonds or a pair high enough to profitably call this turn.

I feel we take this pot down often enough with a bet to justify it

Anyone agree?

Re: The Doug Show
 

[ QUOTE ]

Anyone agree?


[/ QUOTE ]

Nope.

Re: The Doug Show
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the pre-flop 3-bet, but I think the flop is an easy check-fold. When you have a crazy image you make money by bluffing less and value betting the blood out of your opponents.

Betting the turn is spewage. The only way a bet would make sense is if you knew that anyone with a pair: (a) did not also have a diamond draw; and (b) had players left to act after you bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I"m sorry, I can't agree

I bet this again. We 3-bet preflop representing strength, we bet the flop with no resistant as far as I can tell noone has diamonds or a pair high enough to profitably call this turn.

I feel we take this pot down often enough with a bet to justify it

Anyone agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you take the pot down with a bet on the turn 0-2.5%of the time.

Re: The Doug Show
 

youre not gonna like this but i think you shouldve checked the flop.

Re: The Doug Show
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the pre-flop 3-bet, but I think the flop is an easy check-fold. When you have a crazy image you make money by bluffing less and value betting the blood out of your opponents.

Betting the turn is spewage. The only way a bet would make sense is if you knew that anyone with a pair: (a) did not also have a diamond draw; and (b) had players left to act after you bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I"m sorry, I can't agree

I bet this again. We 3-bet preflop representing strength, we bet the flop with no resistant as far as I can tell noone has diamonds or a pair high enough to profitably call this turn.

I feel we take this pot down often enough with a bet to justify it

Anyone agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't agree. He has a maniac image right now. The way to make money against a maniac is check and call. Let him bluff his money away. Don't bet or raise to slow him down. If I'm one of your opponents I just let you bet and I call all the way if I have anything.

In fact, if I were UTG after witnessing your actions of the last several hands I'd have probably limped with AA.

Re: The Doug Show
 

One's image is never as bad as one thinks. Also, people tend to play THEIR cards. not yours. I've played with maniacal Doug. He can't hide the fact that he is a thinking intelligent player. It's as obvious as his hair is white. I'd never ask any player to fold top pair. But I would ask them to fold their untripped PP below a 9 on this board. With the pot this size, I think it is worth at least asking.

Re: The Doug Show
 

[ QUOTE ]
youre not gonna like this but i think you shouldve checked the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its a fold preflop. AQ is very unprofitable vs early raisers, even in loose games.

Re: The Doug Show
 

no. youre thinking of online where people can easily be 12/8 or whatever. those players simply dont exist live, everyone loosens up. AQ just has to be reraised here almost all situations.

Re: The Doug Show
 

I think you should post the AK hand from the other day.

Re: The Doug Show
 

I'd just check here. Looks like you're getting 9:1 on this bet. Sure you'll get called and still win the pot sometimes(or still be ahead), so say you need to win it with this bet 10 or 11 times in 1 and I just think it's too much of a parlay.

Re: The Doug Show
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, I bet again. You get low pps to give up and once they do, you're winning they hand. You've got no reason to believe someone has a jack, nor do you have any reason to believe they have a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Quit thinking so hard and bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The two guys behind him are never folding a pair or a diamond. The original raiser might, but only if he has to overcall.

Re: The Doug Show
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yeah, I bet again. You get low pps to give up and once they do, you're winning they hand. You've got no reason to believe someone has a jack, nor do you have any reason to believe they have a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Quit thinking so hard and bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The two guys behind him are never folding a pair or a diamond. The original raiser might, but only if he has to overcall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I have been in this situation too many times to believe otherwise.

Re: The Doug Show
 

[ QUOTE ]
no. youre thinking of online where people can easily be 12/8 or whatever. those players simply dont exist live, everyone loosens up. AQ just has to be reraised here almost all situations.

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there's plenty of live players who will only raise AA-QQ. in any position. (they don't play in california)

but yeah, not 3-betting here would suck.

Re: The Doug Show
 

Agree with pete, there are tons of vegas regulars against whom this is the easiest muck ever preflop. Ever. Most of them I 3bet though.

Thoughts
 

So I did in fact bet. The next guy called and I got two folds. The river was some offsuit queen and I bet and got called and MHIG and Justin does what he does every orbit we play together and gives me a stupid look and tells me I'm burning money.

Starting with preflop. I can't believe this is a debate. The raiser is 4 off the button. Plus, at a time like this, where I'm sure some of the thinking players are considering filing me under R for Retarded, I WANT to reinforce my maniacal image. It's great for metagame going forward. AJ is an auto-raise. KQ and AT is where I start wondering at what price I'll buy advertised insanity.

As far as the flop goes, I'm with people on the check train if it's something like J92dd or even J82dd. On this flop, there's too many hands folding. 14:1 is just too good not to take a stab. The CO is new to the game, but he's cold-called my raises a couple times in the first orbit or two since he sat down. I don't know how much of his range here is AK/AQ, but I want him super-uncomfy in case he has a hand like that. The button is awful all the time but sometimes he lo(o)ses his mind, and I think there is a strong positive correlation between him going off the reservation and me putting lots of chips in the pot pre-flop. An hour ago, he and I played a pot where he capped 74o preflop three ways and proceeded to play bottom pair like it was the nuts. I'd give more examples, but I didn't see any of the other hands we played together by this point. He needs to be put in his place, specifically by me.

Sorry for posting all this new info. I posted the hand from my phone while at the table. I wonder if that changes anyone's mind?

Anywho, on to the turn. Firstly, how can everyone be so sure that I'm crushed here? The button maybe maybe maybe has a duece (or some random 9), but any other possible hand that is beating me wakes up either preflop or on the flop. The other two haven't made a move to protect a good hand in a big pot...is it too hard to fathom that maybe they don't have pairs yet either? I'm not delusional enough to think that I'm winning this pot on the turn often enough to justify the bet, but I think I can make someone fold and I take good old 2nd-nut-nuthin to the river against a couple hands with a diamond in them.

I just think great things happen when I bet.

Re: The Doug Show
 

Meh...anytime I value-bluff the river in a huge pot with ace high and then call the river raise and get shown the nuts, my poker friends stop calling me to hang out. I don't think there's much of a question that I played it right.

Though, I guess the turn play might be debateable, considering the feedback I've gotten on this hand. I just noticed the parallels now. Either way, my poor little ego is now in shambles from this hand. It'll take a while before I post another debacle. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: The Doug Show
 

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Quit thinking so hard and bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I told you not to post the title of my one-page poker instructional book.

Re: The Doug Show
 

I would not bet the turn,but I feel that I may not be correct in this action.

The turn bet has a good chance to lose the pre-flop raiser if he has AK.

Re: Thoughts
 

[ QUOTE ]

Starting with preflop. I can't believe this is a debate. The raiser is 4 off the button. Plus, at a time like this, where I'm sure some of the thinking players are considering filing me under R for Retarded, I WANT to reinforce my maniacal image. It's great for metagame going forward. AJ is an auto-raise. KQ and AT is where I start wondering at what price I'll buy advertised insanity.

As far as the flop goes, I'm with people on the check train if it's something like J92dd or even J82dd. On this flop, there's too many hands folding. 14:1 is just too good not to take a stab. The CO is new to the game, but he's cold-called my raises a couple times in the first orbit or two since he sat down. I don't know how much of his range here is AK/AQ, but I want him super-uncomfy in case he has a hand like that. The button is awful all the time but sometimes he lo(o)ses his mind, and I think there is a strong positive correlation between him going off the reservation and me putting lots of chips in the pot pre-flop. An hour ago, he and I played a pot where he capped 74o preflop three ways and proceeded to play bottom pair like it was the nuts. I'd give more examples, but I didn't see any of the other hands we played together by this point. He needs to be put in his place, specifically by me.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is all well thought out and solid. I'm not sure about the turn though, because you only have 4 outs against someone if someone has a pair.

I suppose we could put hand ranges on the two loose players and calculate the % of the time that one of them will have you beat on the river.

Re: Thoughts
 

so you played good... and got there. Please tell me you said something like, "I didn't need to hit that Queen, did I?"

Re: Thoughts
 

Can't speak for that game, but here in L.A., nobody's folding to your flop bet no matter what they have. Nobody. Two guys from the Pai Gow table are calling.

On the turn, it's Vegas and you 3-bet pre-flop. They put you on A-A and just call down with A-J. Then again, it's Vegas and they don't raise very much. On balance, I agree with the look Justin gave you on the turn.

I was just trying to remember how many times I've seen two guys cold call three pre-flop and I can only remember once. So maybe my advice against Mr. 7-4 and the rest of these guys doesn't mean much. I once raised with K-8s first in on the button in Vegas and about two hours later, when I raised the turn, a guys says, "Oh, Mr. K-8 is speaking again." I guess I'm in foreign territory here.

Re: Thoughts
 

Lol. Good description of vegas locals.

Re: The Doug Show
 

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I would not bet the turn,but I feel that I may not be correct in this action.

The turn bet has a good chance to lose the pre-flop raiser if he has AK.

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AK is a pretty small part of his range considering the lack of a 4bet, and his opening range is pretty wide to begin with.

Re: The Doug Show
 

Only the turn play is debateble in the AK hand I think. That was guy way too spazzy to not bet-call the river.

I still a turn bet is wrong here but that's absent any live poker information. Live poker hands lose something when we discuss them after the fact. If I'd been watching the hand as you played it I might say bet too.

Re: The Doug Show
 

for those that are saying bet the turn... what the fack do you like about the flop bet?

bet the turn if you bet the flop. checking the flop is fine.

Re: The Doug Show
 

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bet the turn if you bet the flop. checking the flop is fine.

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I thought about this hand a bunch and this basically sums it up.

Re: The Doug Show
 

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for those that are saying check the turn... what the fack do you like about the flop bet?

bet the turn if you bet the flop. checking the flop is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

is what i meant to say.

Re: Thoughts
 

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Justin does what he does every orbit we play together and gives me a stupid look and tells me I'm burning money.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL I knew this was coming. I hate that. I also hate the turn bet though.

Re: The Doug Show
 

2 bad players call you and the pot is multi-way. I dont even bet the flop. I know you could still have best hand but you could easilty not, and your getting called down. Even if you have best hand your not getting worse hands to fold. I check and let hand develop