Dump the overpair?
 

6-handed game due to walkers.

Folded to me in the CO and I raise JJ. The SB (mostly unknown guy, but doesn't seem too LAGgy or too weak or anything extreme) 3-bets. Back to me and I 4-bet, he 5-bets, I call.

Flop is 743 and he bets.

What's the plan for the rest of the hand? Peel and fold the turn? Call down? Dump it now? Raise/fold?

I also feel like my hand posts are getting dumber. Apologies if you are reading them.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

call. probably followed by call. probably followed by call.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

I'm raising this flop. If he 3bets then I'm calling it down. The pot is pretty big at this point so I don't see myself folding an overpair. Is it possible for him to overplay AK, 88-TT? If he sees you as an aggressive player who might be stealing his blinds then he's most likely playing this flop real aggressive.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

Call down and probably lose but maybe win.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

I've been h/u with unlimited raises but never played with a 5 bet cap. Have you ever seen anyone 5 bet from the SB with AK or TT in steal spots?

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

is this a 5 bet cap or 5 bets because we are heads up

I have never played with a 5 bet cap. Man, I love 5 bet caps does that increase a better players winrate? I would think so.

Did I say 5 bet cap enough times? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

The 5-bet cap can can actually reduce the action sometimes because a player will 4-bet if it's a cap but just call it if there's a 5-bet cap.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

I think calling it down is fine.

BTW, I enjoy reading all your hand posts, Keep em coming PJ

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

Showdown.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

It's a 4-bet cap, but we're HU so it's NO LIMIT!

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call down and probably lose but maybe win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

Yeah, just call-call-call.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

Whoa. This looks like a fold or maybe a call flop/fold turn to me.

Is this a special California question or something?

--Nate

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

Nate seems to be the only one who doesn't want a call down, and I think he's right. How many live players are really 5-betting PF without a hand that beats JJ? It's so, so, so rare in live games that I was praying to flop a set or I'd be done. But I decided to call the flop and see if he fired again on the turn.

The turn actually gave me a J-high flush draw so I called again. The river was an Ace and now I can't really beat anything at all so I folded, and he showed me AA.

I like to think I could have found a river fold if it were not an A, and I also like to think I could have found a turn fold if it wasn't a third of some suit.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

Eh, similar hand happened to me the other day in my 8/16 "waaaa, not medium limit". I raised a kill pot (that makes it 16/32, a middle limit!) in middle position with JJ, killer was to my direct left, folded out of turn. Folded to old lady in SB who reraised, I called. Flop came 9 high, she bet, I called. Turn another blank, she bet, I figured old lady doesn't 3bet preflop, and bet twice from out of position without hand, I fold and show JJ, she shows AA and we go on to next hand.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whoa. This looks like a fold or maybe a call flop/fold turn to me.



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"Call flop-fold turn" (and it's somewhat more edgy sister, "call turn-fold river") are in general plays that I love in theory and bother me in reality. How much do we need to know about our opponent to be comfortable folding an overpair in a 7 bb pot here? Aren't close to a majority of not-super-weird unknowns firing again with AK here if they ever have it?

I mean, it is certainly possible to compose the probabilities in such a way that it would be correct to peel the flop here hoping to see villain check the turn (or spike a set) and then folding a turn "unimproved," but that seems like a pretty narrow band of probabilities. I feel vastly more comfortable showing down.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

Will -- I think our PF 4-bet defines our hand enough that folding the turn is safer than you're letting on. I think if you're going to showdown JJ HU if you get 5-bet PF, it may be more cost-effective to just call the PF 3-bet and go from there.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

Playing at Commerce 40/80 this past week, I saw two folks put in 4 or 5 bets out of the blinds with AJ and AK; the person with AJ was someone who I had always regarded as tight/ABC. (Oddly enough, they were both up against AA.)

So no, I don't think you're always up against an overpair. Of course, you were there and we weren't, so you'd know better than us if he's the kind to go crazy with just an ace.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

Speaking of Commerce (to go on a tangent for a sec) -- Shawn (and others) did you notice that Commerce was insanely juicy this weekend?

Usually (at least this was the case last year) the end of the tournament and the days just after it (i.e. yesterday) are typically not just slow, but full of tighter players. But yesterday's 20/40 at 4pm had 4-5 games running, and my table was disturbingly soft. Some of the loosest players I've ever seen at Commerce were spraying chips all over the place.

It explains my $1400+ loss in 5 hours. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

I was there Thurs afternoon/night, Fri night, and Sunday evening. There were numerous "family pots" (both raised and unraised) every night at my table.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Will -- I think our PF 4-bet defines our hand enough that folding the turn is safer than you're letting on. I think if you're going to showdown JJ HU if you get 5-bet PF, it may be more cost-effective to just call the PF 3-bet and go from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and I think this best reason to 4 bet JJ pf in a head up situation or in MN where the cap is 5.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

Friday night my $20-40 table was ridiculous loose. Really bad. Saturday night was the same thing. Unfortunately I picked up almost two racks in the first 40 minutes, and lost that plus a few hundred more to a donkey on a sick heater over the next 3 hours or so. Dude ran up 4 racks, dumped it all back, then ran it up to 1700 or so again all in the span of about 4 hours.

Maybe due to the celebrity tournament? I dunno. Also saw several of the weak players from my Friday night table sitting in at $40-80 on Sat night.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

If possible raise the flop for one bet, if you get re-raised then call down or fold, I'm always about finding out where I am in a hand right on the flop. I also want to extract maximum value out of my hands (obviously) and never allow another player to catch up. Way to many people get married to AK and this could have been one of those situations. Gotta love the Commerce 20/40 :-)

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

the fifth bet is always aces or kings, especially when followed up by a flop bet.

fold imo.

easily?

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

I am baffled why everyone wants a showdown here. This is live poker and a normal seeming dude 5-bet PF.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

If any normal player 5-bets me pf, I agree this has to be AA or KK. What limit is this btw? I can't picture any normal 20/40 player 5-betting pf without a hand that beats mine. I think I might peel once and see if I hit my 2 outer but prepare to fold the turn UI.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

See a showdown as cheaply as possible unless it comes very bad.

Jeff

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

I would take the cheapest path to showdown here because you have an overpair, pot is going to be decent size, you want to know better what to make of villain's pre-flop play.

Maybe you got in a little too deep against this guy pre-flop, maybe not. It would be good to know against a player who may be quite solid.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am baffled why everyone wants a showdown here. This is live poker and a normal seeming dude 5-bet PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not that rare that a Commerce player gets a wild hair you know where and goes bonkers with some total BS. You use the term "normal". So many Commerce players are not normal at all. Like every other player at the table.

It's player dependant and I'd be likely inclined to call this down against an unknown. BTW, if its the heavy middle aged Korean guy that wears glasses....that guy pumps with anything at seemingly random points in the game. Normally he appears kinda tight aggressive unless he is on tilt. But he plays bizarre hands at random. He C/R me the other night on the river with 33 in the hole after I 3 bet pf and bet to the river with a A and Q on the flop. No he did not have a set.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

I see call down recomendations coming from strong players who generally play at the high end of the playing spectrum where the play is probably more aggressive.It's possible that you guys are not adjusting enough to the fact that this is just a 20/40 game.

I think that joker is right that in 20/40 against a seemingly reasonable player it may be right not to 4-bet if you're going to call down a 5-bet in this situation.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

Just to point out: 11 SB after the PF action. Cost is 5 more to see a showdown. So this is a 5 for 16 proposition. We are betting that an unknown player at Commerce who 5-bets PF and followx through all the way will have a hand worse than JJ 24% of the time??

I admit it's been a while since I played there, and maybe I'm just not familiar with the current game textures.... but this just seems wrong.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

Hmmm... i probably wind up calling down since i seem to like to pay off players way more than i should. Looking back and saying fold is so much easier than when you are in the hand.

My followup question is this:
I am slightly confused by a few comments i have seen here as well as in some other posts that say something along the lines of "I would raise to see where i am at", then if i get reraised i would simply call down.

I find these statements very contradictory but i hear it all the time in a live game, people say that they raise to see where they are at and then get reraised and call down the entire hand.

When you say you are raising to see where you are at it would seem to me that you should fold to the reraise because you just "Found Out" that you are behind yet you call down anyway. I fully admit i have problems laying down hands like this in a limit game. I don't usually raise to find out where i am at if i am not going to fold to a reraise or call the reraise and fold on the next card.

It would seem to be the cheapeast to simply call down as it will cost you the least when behind as well as keep a bluffer bluffing. If i raise and the bettor has nothing and they blank on the turn the hand ends anyway. Raising for informational purposes, calling the 3 bet and calling down the rest of the hand seems like the most expensive.

I'm not saying that raising for information is a bad idea, but if that information just costs you 2 more small bets if you can't fold then i think calling is a better option.

Re: Dump the overpair?
 

It feels like Commerce, but I ought not have assumed it's Commerce. There are a few other $20-40 games around town. I'd be more inclined to dump to a turn bet at those other places.