50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

villain is 12/7/3/785 hands...i think i'm just posting this as a sanity check, but i had the slider slid all the way up, and my finger taut over the bet button.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($107)
Button ($29.05)
SB ($184.85)
BB ($12.55)
UTG ($49.25)
Hero ($50.85)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls $7.50, Hero calls $5.50.

Flop: ($24.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $17.5</font>, UTG folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $42.25

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

Why call preflop if you are going to C/F the flop if you flop an overpair? I think you might have to felt here..I don't think you should call for set value...

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

I'm pretty sure his PF 3bet range is wider than just AA......

Why not shove pre?

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

Don't forget UTG's potentially dead money. 4 betting pf might not be so bad

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

felt PF ty

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

There's just so many hands he could have here, QQ,JJ,AKs, even TT. Just go all-in and if he has it, he has it.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

LOL. 4bet preflop.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure his PF 3bet range is wider than just AA......

Why not shove pre?

[/ QUOTE ]


i don't think it is.

edit: and ya know, even if it is, i'm +EV against this guy in the long run i can find a better spot than this WA/WB situation

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure his PF 3bet range is wider than just AA......

Why not shove pre?

[/ QUOTE ]


i don't think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold preflop.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure his PF 3bet range is wider than just AA......

Why not shove pre?

[/ QUOTE ]


i don't think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

y? u think he's good enough to fold AA if a K felts, knowing his cbet % and knowing he's waited this long for AA y fold pre?

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure his PF 3bet range is wider than just AA......

Why not shove pre?

[/ QUOTE ]


i don't think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds of being dealt a given pocket pair are about 220:1, which means that AA makes up less than one half of one percent of a persons range. Even if villain only 3-bets about one third of the hands they raise you still have basically enough range for KK and QQ to be a possibility. You tie with KK and beat QQ, so dead money in the pot is enough to warrant shoving this preflop. On the flop, there is no reason not to shove here, since we have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that villain has anything but an overpair.


[ QUOTE ]
edit: and ya know, even if it is, i'm +EV against this guy in the long run i can find a better spot than this WA/WB situation

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not the time to be thinking WA/WB. Villain has a very narrowly defined range in which you beat or tie against more than %50 of his possible hands. If you can't bring yourself to raise this flop with the intention of getting it all-in by the river so long as an ace doesn't hit the board, you are playing the wrong game.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

Whats his SN???

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whats his SN???

[/ QUOTE ]

Wild_Bill_X

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

Hmmm, its close, but I've only played like 300 hands with him and dont have him as nitty as you. I'd call here bc QQ is prob just as likely as AA. I've folded KK pf to some of the mar del plata guys and this guy stella.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

4 bet pre, if he has AA then chalk it up as a cooler.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

It really is pretty close. I have about 1000 hands with him, and I think it all depends on how you have been playing. Several times I was getting a little bit out of line and he 3 bet me pretty loose that session so he can mix it up a bit. I would def. not 4 bet him pf. I would crai on the flop.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would def. not 4 bet him pf. I would crai on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that even make sense? If you're not shoving preflop because you are afraid of AA, why would you let him see a flop and maybe catch his set before you push? He still has AA.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

SHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE PF

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

that's a shove preflop :/

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure his PF 3bet range is wider than just AA......

Why not shove pre?

[/ QUOTE ]


i don't think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds of being dealt a given pocket pair are about 220:1, which means that AA makes up less than one half of one percent of a persons range. Even if villain only 3-bets about one third of the hands they raise you still have basically enough range for KK and QQ to be a possibility. You tie with KK and beat QQ, so dead money in the pot is enough to warrant shoving this preflop. On the flop, there is no reason not to shove here, since we have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that villain has anything but an overpair.


[ QUOTE ]
edit: and ya know, even if it is, i'm +EV against this guy in the long run i can find a better spot than this WA/WB situation

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not the time to be thinking WA/WB. Villain has a very narrowly defined range in which you beat or tie against more than %50 of his possible hands. If you can't bring yourself to raise this flop with the intention of getting it all-in by the river so long as an ace doesn't hit the board, you are playing the wrong game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Shove pf.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

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I would def. not 4 bet him pf. I would crai on the flop.

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Does that even make sense? If you're not shoving preflop because you are afraid of AA, why would you let him see a flop and maybe catch his set before you push? He still has AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say the call - c/r on the flop line is for trapping QQ, JJ etc.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

he raises 7% of his hands not .7% of his hands. Get it in there, if not preflop than on the flop.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
he raises 7% of his hands not .7% of his hands. Get it in there, if not preflop than on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising not reraising. That's a difference.

And if his range is AA,KK,QQ and we push pf he presumably folds QQ and calls with KK,AA then we are losing money arent we?

Just my thoughts i would probably 4bet preflop...

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

There's a huge amount of dead money in there. If it's just a nitty CO then an argument can be made for calling preflop and CRAI flop but with UTG hanging around as well I'd just get it in preflop.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

aww in pf

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

just shove it in...

You can start worrying about folding KK at 1000nl+...

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

I´d shove it in preflop, but even on the flop his range is wide enough as in AA, KK and QQ to push... imo all the people who said shove have given the right reasons and you really aren´t that deep, if you were like 300bb deep I´d fold but not here!

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whats his SN???

[/ QUOTE ]

Wild_Bill_X

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Against him I think im folding here. Ive personally never seen him 3 bet less than KK. Also too with a smaller overpair IIRC his flop bet would be smaller.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
just shove it in...

You can start worrying about pushing AQ preflop at 1000nl+...

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

Did anyone say Shoeve pre all day yet?

Oh people did say that. Good cause that's the move kiddo.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

nh, shame about the missclick on the flop.

I dont mind the preflop line but the reason for this is to get it in on most flops, and this is as dry as you get.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

I just want to reiterate a point made earlier: your preflop play is inconsistent with your flop play, and that's the biggest mistake you made in this hand.

Folding to the preflop three-bet against this opponent isn't a huge mistake -- I think you're probably giving up value, but only a few BBs on average, so it's not that big a deal. However, calling preflop and then playing for set value and folding to a c-bet on a dry-as-a-bone board is giving up far more value.

Make up your mind preflop: are you going to the felt on this one or not? If you're not willing to commit your stack on a safe board then fold preflop. If you ARE willing to commit, then realize that your smooth-call preflop is setting a trap, and CRAI that flop (and any other aceless flop). KK can be an incredibly profitable hand if played correctly, or it can be a frustrating and unprofitable hand if played badly. Part of playing it correctly is knowing when to get away from a hand. In this case I wouldn't have a big problem with you folding preflop, and I wouldn't have a any problem with you pushing the flop, but I'm very unhappy to see you play KK for set value at a price of over 10% of your effective stack. Had the preflop three-bet been a minraise, calling for set value would be +EV; at this price, you lose money in the long run by playing the way you did.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

I agree folding against him - i've gotten in pf with him three times - all three he had AA or KK.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure his PF 3bet range is wider than just AA......

Why not shove pre?

[/ QUOTE ]


i don't think it is.

edit: and ya know, even if it is, i'm +EV against this guy in the long run i can find a better spot than this WA/WB situation

[/ QUOTE ]
So why post this if you don't care what people think? It's pretty obvious by your attitude that you're right and we're all wrong.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree folding against him - i've gotten in pf with him three times - all three he had AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]
But does he 3bet wider than that? That is the real question here.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

ummm, i was gonna respond, but then i saw pokey's post, and he already said everything i had to say.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just want to reiterate a point made earlier: your preflop play is inconsistent with your flop play, and that's the biggest mistake you made in this hand.

Folding to the preflop three-bet against this opponent isn't a huge mistake -- I think you're probably giving up value, but only a few BBs on average, so it's not that big a deal. However, calling preflop and then playing for set value and folding to a c-bet on a dry-as-a-bone board is giving up far more value.

Make up your mind preflop: are you going to the felt on this one or not? If you're not willing to commit your stack on a safe board then fold preflop. If you ARE willing to commit, then realize that your smooth-call preflop is setting a trap, and CRAI that flop (and any other aceless flop). KK can be an incredibly profitable hand if played correctly, or it can be a frustrating and unprofitable hand if played badly. Part of playing it correctly is knowing when to get away from a hand. In this case I wouldn't have a big problem with you folding preflop, and I wouldn't have a any problem with you pushing the flop, but I'm very unhappy to see you play KK for set value at a price of over 10% of your effective stack. Had the preflop three-bet been a minraise, calling for set value would be +EV; at this price, you lose money in the long run by playing the way you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

good points. i'll keep this in mind for when we're both ~2 buyins deep next time. i hadn't actually considered folding pre.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

Pokey is SUCH a genius.

Everything he said, especially about the inconsistent call/fold line. You screwed the pooch on this hand.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just want to reiterate a point made earlier: your preflop play is inconsistent with your flop play, and that's the biggest mistake you made in this hand.

Folding to the preflop three-bet against this opponent isn't a huge mistake -- I think you're probably giving up value, but only a few BBs on average, so it's not that big a deal. However, calling preflop and then playing for set value and folding to a c-bet on a dry-as-a-bone board is giving up far more value.

Make up your mind preflop: are you going to the felt on this one or not? If you're not willing to commit your stack on a safe board then fold preflop. If you ARE willing to commit, then realize that your smooth-call preflop is setting a trap, and CRAI that flop (and any other aceless flop). KK can be an incredibly profitable hand if played correctly, or it can be a frustrating and unprofitable hand if played badly. Part of playing it correctly is knowing when to get away from a hand. In this case I wouldn't have a big problem with you folding preflop, and I wouldn't have a any problem with you pushing the flop, but I'm very unhappy to see you play KK for set value at a price of over 10% of your effective stack. Had the preflop three-bet been a minraise, calling for set value would be +EV; at this price, you lose money in the long run by playing the way you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

dammit pokey - I was about to write a long winded post about how this might well be a spot where folding KK pre was goot - and that pre/flop play is out of synch and you beat me to it.

I'll just quote yours again for extra emphasis.

Re: 50nl i NEVER fold kings...
 

Note: Wild Bill has 4bet me with JJ and rode dirtay when I pushed Axs.

So he might be retarded.