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AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
Okay, I think this hand is pretty interesting because of the table dynamics.
First, here's the hand itself: Full Tilt Poker $3/$6 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game 6 Players LegoPoker Hand Converter <font color="black">Stack Sizes</font> UTG: $2425.10 Hero (MP): $1596.20 CO: $1352.60 BTN: $2752.35 SB: $692.75 BB: $787 <font color="black">Preflop:</font> A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($9, 6 players) <font color="red">UTG raises to $18</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $74</font>, CO calls $74, BTN folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $56 <font color="black">Flop:</font> 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($231, 3 players) UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $150</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $425</font> FWIW, CO thought for a while before raising, his 15 second warning went off. UTG is one of the worst players I've seen since Party, he's 60/40 3.0!, will call any amount of pre flop action with any two cards, will try to make horrible bluffs with any two, etc. He has also been running sick hot, building a $3k stack at one point. The table consists of 4 regulars and the uberdonk. There is a tremendous amount of preflop cold calling going on with everyone trying to hit a hand, because of the stack sizes and spewing going on by the donk. This includes ALOT of cold calling of 3 bets with cards that can make a big hand. CO is a regular, running about 25/18 3.0. We have not tangled at the table so far, the pots we've been in have been pretty straight forward. I don't have a great read on him yet, but I get the feeling he is probably a little tighter than 25/18 because of the amount of cold calling going on, he is certainly steamed at the donk, and has a solid understanding of the hands he can play pre flop because of the huge implied odds. In short: I believe his range to call my 3bet is pretty damn wide because he KNOWS the donk is calling 100% of the time. CO knows I'm multitabling, and sees me as a 22/16 TAG. If he is paying attention, I suspect he knows that I'm a thinking player based on my play against donk. I have been cold calling the donk alot for implieds, and 3 betting for value with stronger hands. I have not been trying to get fancy, I am trying to stack donk 200bb+ deep. Also, just for fun, here are a couple hands to show you the quality of the donkey: $3/$6 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game 6 Players LegoPoker Hand Converter <font color="black">Stack Sizes</font> BTN: $2314 Hero (SB): $540 BB: $3210.6 UTG: $2335.05 MP: $657.75 CO: $611 <font color="black">Preflop:</font> Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($9, 6 players) UTG calls $6, MP folds, CO folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $24</font>, Hero calls $21, BB calls $18, UTG calls $18 <font color="black">Flop:</font> K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($96, 4 players) Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $96</font>, Hero calls $96, BB folds, UTG folds <font color="black">Turn:</font> K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] ($288, 2 players) Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets all in for $2,194</font>, Hero calls all in for $423 Uncalled bet of $1771 returned to BTN <font color="black">River:</font> K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] ($1134, 2 players) No action <font color="black">Results:</font> BTN had 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Fours) Hero had Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Fours) and won $1,131 Final Pot: $1131.00 ($3.00 rake) Full Tilt Poker $3/$6 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game 6 Players LegoPoker Hand Converter <font color="black">Stack Sizes</font> SB: $3124.1 Hero (BB): $930.2 UTG: $1125.60 MP: $2716.35 CO: $701.75 BTN: $1017 <font color="black">Preflop:</font> K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($9, 6 players) UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, BTN folds, SB calls $3, <font color="red">Hero raises to $30</font>, SB calls $24 <font color="black">Flop:</font> 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($60, 2 players) SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $60</font>, SB calls $60 <font color="black">Turn:</font> 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] ($180, 2 players) SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $150</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $300</font>, Hero calls $150 <font color="black">River:</font> 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] ($780, 2 players) <font color="red">SB bets $276</font>, Hero calls $276 <font color="black">Results:</font> SB had 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Tens) Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Tens) and won $1,329 Final Pot: $1329.00 ($3.00 rake) |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
what did utg do after co raised
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
Sorry, he folded.
I will note that that stupid idiot could call with a naked 8c. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
i think that if your read is right here with the donmk that a good idea is to call here, foldign would be 2 tight and then if the turn is a non club u can play it very agressively. On the flop if u set him all in and he calls ur equity isnt that good even against the non flush hands so i prefer to wait until the turn to play this very agressively
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
i think that if your read is right here with the donmk that a good idea is to call here, foldign would be 2 tight and then if the turn is a non club u can play it very agressively. On the flop if u set him all in and he calls ur equity isnt that good even against the non flush hands so i prefer to wait until the turn to play this very agressively [/ QUOTE ] Just to note, the raiser is not the donkey. My point with the donkey discussion is to try to explain table conditions and how I felt that affected hand ranges here. Not sure if you misunderstood who the hand was against or not. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
surely his range is still mostly big pairs, with the CC pre, right?
in a normal situation, i would call, and bomb a blank turn (most likely shoving) here, I think it's a lot closer since it sucks to give up a big stack when you have the jesus seat on the megadonk with a big stack, and since apparently his CCing range is a bit wider, and contains a lot more hands that have us in bad->realbad shape the fact that you lose so much future EV when you lose this pot might swing it to a fold |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
Looks like a pretty easy fold. If he had a nut draw and half a brain he'd want to keep the donkey in there. It'd also be a super ballsy bluff. You flip with things like XcX.
It's definitely a spot for a call and not a raise if you decide to play on. |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
Umm, Reraise pot, I have AA, Im allin.
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
If CO is paying attention like you were saying, what is he putting you on? Have you been reraising the donk with all kinds of hands or is he likely to view your play here as a big pair? Unless you have been 3 betting the donk a lot preflop to isolate and then c-bet the flop frequently (which I don't think is necessarily a great way to play the donk), I'm folding this pretty quickly.
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
Umm, Reraise pot, I have AA, Im allin. [/ QUOTE ] barf |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
If CO is paying attention like you were saying, what is he putting you on? Have you been reraising the donk with all kinds of hands or is he likely to view your play here as a big pair? Unless you have been 3 betting the donk a lot preflop to isolate and then c-bet the flop frequently (which I don't think is necessarily a great way to play the donk), I'm folding this pretty quickly. [/ QUOTE ] Good question. I have _NOT_ been 3 betting to isolate in the pots i'm playing. I have cold called 66%, 33% 3bet when I'm playing a pot that the donk opens. For example, I'm cold calling hands like 8Ts, TJs, small pairs, etc. The other reason for calling is that 2 seats behind me is another donk who is also 200bb+ deep. I also have no FE with my 3bets vs. uber donk, so if I'm 3betting every pot I would enter against this guy, I'm building big pots everytime. Also, 3 betting wasn't good enough to isolate very well here because the regulars knew what huge implieds the donkey was giving. So the short answer: My 3 bets were primarily hands that had solid value, not speculative hands that I'm playing for implied. Obviously my NORMAL strategy is to 3 bet both types of hands vs. a fish that will fold if he misses or a regular. I feel like the villan in this hand was taking a similar strategy. For example, when I would overcall donkey, villan in this hand was NEVER squeezing with FE pre-flop, he was just calling as well. |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
I also have no FE with my 3bets vs. uber donk [/ QUOTE ] consider BOMBING it PF to like $100+ |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
Stacks are well over 200bbs deep here between Hero / CO / UTG donkey, and I could very well see CO coldcalling the reraise with a fairly wide range given UTG will likely call and stack off with a ton of hands. So for that I think this is a fold. 100bbs deep I'd probably just get it ai.
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I also have no FE with my 3bets vs. uber donk [/ QUOTE ] consider BOMBING it PF to like $100+ [/ QUOTE ] Full Tilt Poker $3/$6 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game 6 Players LegoPoker Hand Converter <font color="black">Stack Sizes</font> CO: $2200.80 Hero (BTN): $1602.30 SB: $1455.6 BB: $3046.35 UTG: $600 MP: $742 <font color="black">Preflop:</font> 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($9, 6 players) UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $21</font>, CO calls $21, Hero folds, SB folds, BB folds <font color="black">Flop:</font> 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($51, 2 players) <font color="red">MP bets $36</font>, CO calls $36 <font color="black">Turn:</font> 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] ($123, 2 players) MP checks, <font color="red">CO bets $60</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $303</font>, CO calls $243 <font color="black">River:</font> 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] ($729, 2 players) <font color="red">MP bets all in for $382</font>, CO calls $382 <font color="black">Results:</font> CO had A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (Ace Queen high) MP had Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Queens) and won $1,490 Final Pot: $1490.00 ($3.00 rake) |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I also have no FE with my 3bets vs. uber donk [/ QUOTE ] consider BOMBING it PF to like $100+ [/ QUOTE ] I know the hand above was a sarcastic reply. But honestly, I think bombing it more pre flop would have been a smarter move anyway, just from the standpoint of limiting the wider ranges of the regulars. It would define for me their hands a bit better, certainly if they called and continued. After thinking about this hand later last night, I wish I had 'misclicked' pre flop with my 3bet. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
If i were u in this spot i would call this bet and if a blank hits the turn then shove it in. If its a club i would probably let it go if he bets big.
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] i think that if your read is right here with the donmk that a good idea is to call here, foldign would be 2 tight and then if the turn is a non club u can play it very agressively. On the flop if u set him all in and he calls ur equity isnt that good even against the non flush hands so i prefer to wait until the turn to play this very agressively [/ QUOTE ] Just to note, the raiser is not the donkey. My point with the donkey discussion is to try to explain table conditions and how I felt that affected hand ranges here. Not sure if you misunderstood who the hand was against or not. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] ya sry i did misunderstand that, well if ur out of pos to a good player here you could strongly consider folding, especially if your out of position |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
this seems like a fold, seems unlikely CO is trying to semi bluff both you and an uber donk.
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
this seems like a fold, seems unlikely CO is trying to semi bluff both you and an uber donk. [/ QUOTE ] Exactly, I think it is a fold as well. Plus we want to stay deep to get at the too donks while they still have cash. Not to mention the time deliberation, he is either calculating what he thinks uberdonk will call or is trying to incite a play at the pot by him. CO's bet is a small "call me" type raise. |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
Just out of interest all u guys saying fold what r u putting CO on with a 2 3 6 clubs flop. ??????
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
I'm not folding yet, thats for sure.
Given the stack and fish situation he could easily be coldcalling with a wider range here, but AA is still AA, and unless he flopped a flush or a set you're still ahead. Much of his range will be things like KcK, QcQ, or even KK with no club. So I think call, lead safe turn is a good plan. Although stack sizes aren't too good for either a medium lead or a shove. oh well, either works. you could even get tricky and check the turn to him. actually i kinda like that. |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
surely his range is still mostly big pairs, with the CC pre, right? in a normal situation, i would call, and bomb a blank turn (most likely shoving) here, I think it's a lot closer since it sucks to give up a big stack when you have the jesus seat on the megadonk with a big stack, and since apparently his CCing range is a bit wider, and contains a lot more hands that have us in bad->realbad shape the fact that you lose so much future EV when you lose this pot might swing it to a fold [/ QUOTE ] agreed. though i'm guessing i'd prolly end up calling and c/f turn. |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
seems like the only time you're ahead of CO is when he has KcKx / QcQx
i really dont mind a flop fold. im not sure everyone is remembering that the UTG donk folded and it's now back to Hero heads up vs the CO regular |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not folding yet, thats for sure. Given the stack and fish situation he could easily be coldcalling with a wider range here, but AA is still AA, and unless he flopped a flush or a set you're still ahead. Much of his range will be things like KcK, QcQ, or even KK with no club. So I think call, lead safe turn is a good plan. Although stack sizes aren't too good for either a medium lead or a shove. oh well, either works. you could even get tricky and check the turn to him. actually i kinda like that. [/ QUOTE ] AGreed. u people saying folding are a lil crazy. |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
point: if we stack CO we have enough chips to take on the donk's whole empire. perhaps that makes it worth our while to be optimistic?
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
point: if we stack CO we have enough chips to take on the donk's whole empire. perhaps that makes it worth our while to be optimistic? [/ QUOTE ] do you think we EVER stack CO here? unless he has specifically KK/QQ with a club and we fade, i dont see it happening. hes a TAG regular and we'd be showing an ass load of strength continuing with the hand here. |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
point: if we stack CO we have enough chips to take on the donk's whole empire. perhaps that makes it worth our while to be optimistic? [/ QUOTE ] we don't need as many men as him since we're a better field general. We win a few skirmishes and we'll have same # of men. |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm not folding yet, thats for sure. Given the stack and fish situation he could easily be coldcalling with a wider range here, but AA is still AA, and unless he flopped a flush or a set you're still ahead. Much of his range will be things like KcK, QcQ, or even KK with no club. So I think call, lead safe turn is a good plan. Although stack sizes aren't too good for either a medium lead or a shove. oh well, either works. you could even get tricky and check the turn to him. actually i kinda like that. [/ QUOTE ] AGreed. u people saying folding are a lil crazy. [/ QUOTE ] It is definitely not as clear cut as some ppl are making out. NO WAY!!! |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. I shove all day. He can be isoraising really easily with a worse hand (you said donk was bad enough to call even this reraise on the flop really really thinly), or protecting a worse one.
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
I shove all day [/ QUOTE ] why do you think shoving is > call/lead turn? we are not way ahead of most of the hands in his range here, and our equity improves dramatically when we get it in on a blank turn sometimes, we get blown off the best hand, when a club hits, but how often are we ahead here, when a club hits, anyway? |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
a lot of hands, could be a set or a flush i think a pair and the ace of clubs would probably make it a larger amount, in hindsight since the donk is in the pot i think this is a clear fold, since the donk sort of keeps the pot protected Also above there was something mentioned about timing tells, while it could mean soemthing i wouldnt put much stock into it. He could easily be watching TV or multitabling etc
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
He was multitabling.
Not trying to read into the delay or give any hints, just sayin'. I'll post my thoughts/decision later on. |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
[ QUOTE ]
I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. I shove all day. He can be isoraising really easily with a worse hand (you said donk was bad enough to call even this reraise on the flop really really thinly), or protecting a worse one. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think he's trying to get donk to cold call in order to get jalex to fold - that's super sick, esp with how much strength jalex represents by betting this flop into both players. jalex has to have at least a pair of some kind to do this or maybe a very strong draw. I feel like a shove is gross and lets opponent play almost perfectly. He will get pot odds to call w/ the hands he's racing with, he'll fold any bluffs (of which there are none), and he'll obviously call with his sets as well. To me, CO should be peeling here with a draw in hopes to stack UTG - raising, especially with a nut draw, is a good way to possibly scare the donk out. Maybe I'm underestimating just how bad this guy is - but the problem is, the strength jalex has represented, he's obviously coming over the top of both players with a strong pair w/ club, if that's what he's got (and donk cold-calls). |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
i don't see how you can be ahead here and you don't have a draw. assuming the guy who raised you isn't retarded this is a fold. if you want a range i'd guess low flush or set, something vulnerable that he doesn't want to see a turn with
(i.e. either take it down on flop or get all-in.) |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
I think you guys are overestimating how strong jalex looks here. This could really be any bare Ac or 88+. Do you all think villain wouldn't be raising QQ/KK here? Or even JJ? Maybe I'm off in thinking he could raise like 99+ to isolate though.
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
given that we're 200 bb deep if i'm villain jalex's line looks pretty effing strong to me
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
I think worse big pairs make up a pretty big part of this guy's range here, with or without a flush draw.
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
with A of clubs, obvious shove. As played, I think this is a fold.
EDIT: This is of course without reads. If villain was someone like Durrrr, I would shove here a fair percentage of the time. |
Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
barring some ridiculous history this is a fold
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Re: AA interesting spot (3/6 NL)
Okay, I folded. In the flow of the game, I stopped and thought through what the hell his raise might represent. My thoughts:
1. I think that he is only raising a made hand here that he feels the need to protect. In my opinion that includes a flopped medium sized flush or a set. I feel like his range was wide enough here pre flop because of the donkey that he could have something like TJs, 89s, etc. 2. I felt like my line was more than strong enough that he wasn't going to play for stacks here against _ME_ with QQc, JJc, TTc, etc. He knows there is a very real possibility that stacks are going in here. 3. He's not raising hands that generate value from the donkey just calling him down. 4. I want to keep my 200bb stack with position on the donk. So does villan, so why the hell would he be getting fancy here with something that doesn't probably have me crushed. I felt like my hand vs. his probable range made continuing pretty hard, and with the long term EV of my deep stack on donkey, seemed like a pretty straight forward fold. Thanks for all the comments, I don't know if villan is 2p2, but I would love to know what he had. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] |
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