Get Your Calculators Out!
 

60/120, fantastic game. Assume everyone sucks unless I say otherwise.

UTG raises, four people cold call, I call in the SB(2/3 structure) with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], BB calls.

Flop 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (14 SB).
Check, Check, UTG bets while saying, "I guess I'll be stupid," EP calls, MP raises, CO calls, I call, BB calls, UTG 3bets, EP calls, MP 4bets, CO folds, I call, BB calls, UTG 5 bets and everyone calls.

Turn 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (20.5 BB).
Check, Check, UTG bets, everyone calls.

River is some retarded card that gives me a pair and destroys my chances of dragging this humongous pot.

Thoughts?

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

i don't see anything you could do differently anywhere in this hand

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

Boy, that UTG sure is tricky. I'm surprised you were able to play the hand so well given his subtlety.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

I consider myself a lot looser than most of the forum regulars here. I fold PF. Three gap suited for 5:1 in awful absolute position, bad relative position, is just too terrible.

I think that UTGs speech before betting pretty much telegraphs his hand.

edit: Whoops calculator attack shows better pot odds. I still hate this hand and the overall situation.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

tess, folding preflop would be a mistake...

i suppose we have bad absolute position cuz we are the small blind, but we dont really have bad relative position cuz we will basically be acting last on all subsequent rounds if UTG keeps the lead since we get to act after everyone else when UTG bets...

also, not sure where you got 5-1 from, but w/ a 2/3 sb this is an easy call, more debatable in a 1/3 structure...

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

I'm folding the flop the first time around. If I'm calling PF with 84s, I want to flop either a double gutter or a flush draw. Having nothing but a gutshot and a backdoor 8-high flush draw isn't enough for me to call 2 cold. You're getting about 20:2 and not even close to closing the action.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

I fold preflop. I fold the flop. No calculator needed.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

Yeah I don't see anything different either. I'd call preflop and grudgingly call one bet at a time on the flop too.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

I fold the flop when it's two cold to me the first time.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop. I fold the flop. No calculator needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you run some numbers? I think you'd be surprised. Preflop is close but many others are saying easy call, so just ignore that for now. The flop is much more important.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

I think preflop's a fold, but it's close. I'd definitely fold from the SB with a 1/2 blind structure and probably call from the BB.

The thing to look out for here is that with this many people seeing a flop hold 'em starts to play a bit like lolmaha, where you usually have to make something fairly close to the nuts to drag the pot. You have a hand that can't make the nut straight and is far, far away from being able to make the nut flush. Your two pair hands are *very* vulnerable. Trips are better, but will still lose occasionally.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop. I fold the flop. No calculator needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you run some numbers? I think you'd be surprised. Preflop is close but many others are saying easy call, so just ignore that for now. The flop is much more important.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say that the dilemma you face on the flop tells you something about preflop.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

It would take an earthquake for me to fold preflop for one more chip.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
It would take an earthquake for me to fold preflop for one more chip.

[/ QUOTE ]

So would every person in this thread. What's your point? It was 4 more chips.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

Ok you want comments on the flop....

Pot odds look fine, the problem is massive redrawage. Anyone with two pair or set or a FD is slurping up tons of your equity from making a straight. The 5c would be a huge mixed blessing. Your straight isn't even the nuts, and the river will often be another nut straight to dodge. Your backdoor FD is a real nose-pincher. And the action continuing for all those bets on the flop is not really that much of a surprise.

Absolutely positively fold for two bets on the flop. 20:2 is no good when you'll get rivered so freakin often.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop. I fold the flop. No calculator needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you run some numbers? I think you'd be surprised. Preflop is close but many others are saying easy call, so just ignore that for now. The flop is much more important.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that preflop and the flop is close. Just telling you what I would do.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

Close to a turn value checkraise no?

-DeathDonkey

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would take an earthquake for me to fold preflop for one more chip.

[/ QUOTE ]

So would every person in this thread. What's your point? It was 4 more chips.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops.

Who am I kidding. I'm calling for 4 more chips too. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

My guess is it was six chips.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

How 'bout for 6 more? And does it make any difference whether he paired his 8 or his 4?

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
My guess is it was six chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assumed the 60 plays like the Commerce game, using $20 chips. What do they use there, quarters and reds?

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

"UTG raises, four people cold call, I call in the SB(2/3 structure) with 84s"

bad

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

the fact that there is a fd on the board and your gutterball isnt to the nuts and the fact that your gutterball is vurnurable to a oesd redraw and you're not closing the action makes me think this is a fold on the flop. backdoor makes it close though, but thats not to the nuts either. and btw i don't know how to use a calculator so somebody prove this for me!

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My guess is it was six chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assumed the 60 plays like the Commerce game, using $20 chips. What do they use there, quarters and reds?

[/ QUOTE ]

you assumed right.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

"UTG bets . . . EP calls, MP raises, CO calls, I call, BB calls, UTG 3bets, EP calls, MP 4bets, CO folds, I call, BB calls, UTG 5 bets and everyone calls."

Hopefully you were playing second best hold'em. 8-4 is a good hand for that game, and, if memory serves, Gabe thinks you're an expert at it.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

60/120 second best holdem! A guy can dream...

-DeathDonkey

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
"UTG bets . . . EP calls, MP raises, CO calls, I call, BB calls, UTG 3bets, EP calls, MP 4bets, CO folds, I call, BB calls, UTG 5 bets and everyone calls."

Hopefully you were playing second best hold'em. 8-4 is a good hand for that game, and, if memory serves, Gabe thinks you're an expert at it.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd play it the same way in both games. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
"UTG raises, four people cold call, I call in the SB(2/3 structure) with 84s"

bad

[/ QUOTE ]
puting in this much money in such a marginal spot is why i think its incorrect.. i think two spades and im going along.. b/c once you get to the turn and you pick up another draw you cant go anywhere

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

wowow wtf fold the flop. your gutterball sux with the flush draw and its not even to the nuts.

folding pf seems crazy too.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

Preflop is an esay fold IMO, on the flop you have a dirty gutshot with 1 over and ur drawing to crap for 5 bets... Fold er...

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know how to use a calculator

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume this is because as an Asian, you can do all this math in your head.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't know how to use a calculator

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume this is because as an Asian, you can do all this math in your head.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol its because an abacus can't do those kind of computations.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

Me too. So a $120 bet or call on the river is, by my admittedly fuzzy math, six chips.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Me too. So a $120 bet or call on the river is, by my admittedly fuzzy math, six chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got confused, then. Your first reply that said "6 chips" was in response to my post that said "It's 4 chips to call" the PF raise from the SB. I didn't realize we had effortlessly shifted to river play.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

I'd fold the flop the first time. I think preflop is a pretty easy call. I think turn might be close to a GAMBOL value raise.

BTW if there is any possibility that UTG is the sort of guy to make some terrible heroic big laydown I might c/r the river since there's 4 to a straight. In the likely event he calls the c/r table your hand proudly.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
the fact that there is a fd on the board and your gutterball isnt to the nuts and the fact that your gutterball is vurnurable to a oesd redraw and you're not closing the action makes me think this is a fold on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

CDC nails it. I call pf because winning big pots makes a big difference to your P/L and I'm willing to go thin from the blinds.

But the amount of ways you can make a hand with that flop and still lose makes calling 4-5 bets to draw at it a bad move.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

I was excited when I thought we flopped some sort of double belly buster. When I realized we were drawing to 3 outs which are *probably* good, but will still lose when the board flushes the river 20% of the time, I was discouraged to see that we spent $300 on the flop.

PF is meh? It's sooted and it can make straights, so I play it more than I probably should.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

I know this could be a big pot, but I'm not calling two cold
on the flop with a thin draw when the action can't be completed. And you had to call three more bets!

Easy fold, perhaps a fold preflop also.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

You're right, my bad, I thought we were talking about the river all along. My response to Clarkmaster's second post won't make much sense then either. I used to be able to read.

Re: Get Your Calculators Out!
 

[ QUOTE ]
But the amount of ways you can make a hand with that flop and still lose makes calling 4-5 bets to draw at it a bad move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it is, but it's very rare that I'm going to have to pay more than 3 bets. Even with what the guy said, I would expect to pay 2 bets ~60%, 3 bets 35%, and 4-5 bets 5%. So the question is can I call the first two profitably with these assumptions.