2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

(originally posted in BBV but a poster questioned my play so...)

2/4 B&M, 10 handed, loose & passive table

PreFlop: Hero is MP1 with J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button 3bets, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero 4bets, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls

Flop (5 players, 23 SB): J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero...

My plan was to checkraise and then keep raising till the cows came home, my thinking being that if I bet then button could raise and then I might not trap SB and BB for 2 bets. But now I'm thinking that letting this check thru would be horrible, that and I could also get a 3bet in if button does raise plus SB and UTG might come along for the ride regardless.

So, is it retarded to cap preflop and then not lead out on the flop? Or is a checkraise ok here?

GcluelessretardG

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if I bet then button could raise and then I might not trap SB and BB for 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
standard check

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

check and pray for a bet

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

¿Why did you raise pre-flop putting 4 bets? Maybe your opponent had QQ, KK, AA or AK. I thik that capping pre-flop is wrong.

I would bet, not check-raise. If you check, maybe everybody check.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

I like the bet here. I would lean toward the button having an overpair which he would definitely raise with. Even if he just calls, everyone else is almost surely going to call with such a big pot odds on the bet. On the flipside if you do check, and it does end up being checked around, you've lost out on 4 small bets. Whereas a bet give you at least 2 small bets and perhaps up to 4 small bets more. Then the big bonus if the button raises.

If it does check around the pot odds would still be at a point that a 4 outer would be callable (assuming the turn is bet), so why not get at least a few more small bets in there? I just can't see many hands that would call a capped bet, not at least call ANY flop bet with over 24 to 1 odds on the call.

CB---

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

Bet and hope for a raise. On the flop I play this like I have QQ or KK. Hope that someone with AA tries to kick my ass.

If someone caps the flop after your 3-bet, then I would consider trying a c/r on the turn.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

I don't like the cap preflop. Call the 3 bet. If you cap preflop and don't bet out on this board, other players will smell something fishy and are very likely to check it through on the flop. Your most likely capping hands are JJ+, so a continuation bet is standard.

By calling the 3 bet, you can be 90% sure the button will bet the flop and you can then checkraise it. With any luck button will 3 bet again, and you can check raise him again on the turn.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

The pot's pretty big, and you need to do what you can do to win the pot, not trap players for small bets. Plus, your cap indicates a premium pair, so a continuation bet just seems normal. Since the button three-bet it preflop, I'd bet out and hope he raises it to shut the SB and UTG out. If the SB and UTG cold call, you can three-bet it. If they don't call, then you only have to deal with the button and the MP...you could reraise or call the button raise and plan to c/r the turn if you want. I wouldn't want to risk giving a free card at any time because the pot is big....a free card may give someone a draw that could wind up outdrawing your top set.

ScottieK

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

Is capping preflop not standard here? I'm at worst maybe behind the 3betting button but most likely ahead of the other 3 players, so why not pump this pot?

(if you want to see what other players actually had in this hand, see my BBV post)

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

I would never cap preflop w/ JJ, rarely do w/ AA.

The way you played it you could easily have an UI AK. So I would check to the 3-bettor on the button and try to trap some suckers b/w.

The question is, can I wait til the turn to c/r?

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would never cap preflop w/ JJ, rarely do w/ AA.


The question is, can I wait til the turn to c/r?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? You don't cap AA?

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would never cap preflop w/ JJ, rarely do w/ AA.


The question is, can I wait til the turn to c/r?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? You don't cap AA?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rarely, might be a stretch. I would say that when given the option I cap around 50% of the time.

I don't like to give away the strength of my hand. Of course it depends on the opponent, my position, and the size of the field, whether I want to, or can, narrow it further.

But I suck.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

Help a noob out, I'm still confused as to why some would not cap this preflop. With 5 players I'm putting in only 20% of the money into the pot right now; I have a fairly big equity advantage in this hand against a button's normal 3betting range and 3 other typical 2/4 gambloors, no?

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

Against 5 opponents I doubt if you have an equity edge with JJ. (I'm sure someone will chime in w/ figures.) However, I would always cap KK, AA 5-way.

Calculations show your equity to be around 19% against 4 limpers and one 3 bettor.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

Capping here is good. You only really have to worry about one opponent having you beat (the button). If this was online, maybe you call (but you'd never get the three callers online, so there's not much to argue here). Live, it's a cap. Set value alone is almost enough to justify a cap.

In a live game, the button is very likely to three-bet with a good multiway hand (JTs especially), and not necessarily a big pair. If he has a big pair, well, that sucks - but you partially negate that deficit by having three players coming along for the ride here. Your equity edge here is far too big not to push, especially when only one player has shown any strength.

In a big pot like this, I want to be aggressive and essentially announce to the table that I have a big pair. If the flop is favorable (underdcards and no J), I want any overcards (ATs, QTs, etc) to fold the flop (or the turn). Though perhaps unlikely, this is easier to do if you cap it.

----------------------------------

Here the situation is different. We have just a fantastic flop for our hand.

As some people suggested, playing to protect your hand here is ridiculous. You have top set on a rainbow board with no real straight draws.

If the flop is two-sooted, or if that board is J T 2, then it's time to protect. Here there is little to worry about. Playing as such in this situation is playing too scared.

Since you hit your set and there are no obvious draws, it's tough to make a wrong decision here. The problem is though, there are no obvious draws and two checks already - making a check-through on the flop more likely.

If there is any chance (5%) you think this will get checked through, I'd bet. Since you capped preflop, a continuation bet is expected and reveals nothing about your hand. Actually, your opponents would expect you to anything but bet with JJJ here.

How about this line? Bet/call flop.

Then c/r turn (or bet/3bet depending on the action).

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against 5 opponents I doubt if you have an equity edge with JJ. (I'm sure someone will chime in w/ figures.) However, I would always cap KK, AA 5-way.

Calculations show your equity to be around 19% against 4 limpers and one 3 bettor.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you calculate this with no idea what the button's three-betting range is?

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against 5 opponents I doubt if you have an equity edge with JJ. (I'm sure someone will chime in w/ figures.) However, I would always cap KK, AA 5-way.

Calculations show your equity to be around 19% against 4 limpers and one 3 bettor.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you calculate this with no idea what the button's three-betting range is?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what the limpers limping range is either. In these cases, you just have to go with God.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

Here's a massive thread on whether JJ is an autoraise from the SB regardless of number of limpers.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1


Personally, I was at first against auto-raising, but your edge is so big you have to push it.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against 5 opponents I doubt if you have an equity edge with JJ. (I'm sure someone will chime in w/ figures.) However, I would always cap KK, AA 5-way.

Calculations show your equity to be around 19% against 4 limpers and one 3 bettor.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you calculate this with no idea what the button's three-betting range is?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what the limpers limping range is either. In these cases, you just have to go with God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then where does this 19% come from?

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Then where does this 19% come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think my calculation is flawed? Does it sound low?

I used normal loose-passive limping requirements, and a 3-betting range somewhat looser than mine. If anything the limpers probably had BETTER hands than I gave them credit for.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

I think the discussion is better served if you posted explicit Pokerstove calculations (if that's what you used) with your exact limping and 3-betting requirements.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the discussion is better served if you posted explicit Pokerstove calculations (if that's what you used) with your exact limping and 3-betting requirements.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind next time I try to contribute.

I'd be interested to know what your issue is with the figure that I supplied and if you have one that you feel may be more accurate.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

Pokerstove:

Player 1 JJ: 27.97%
Player 2 Random: 13.0%
Player 3 Random: 13.0%
Player 4 Random: 13.0%
Player 5 TT+,AQs+,KQs+AQo+: 32.97%

There ya go.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

Thanks for the numbers guys; looks to me like in the general case I have enough equity to cap it.

(brag: although in this case I happened to be up against AA, KK, QQ and 88) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

What day of the week and what time did this hand happen?

Were you up against the daylight retired crowd or was this the weekend retards?

I'm impressed three people played so weakly.

Bet.
 

If the pot were smaller, this would be an easy check with an almost classic slowplaying hand. You will rarely lose the pot by giving a free card: if someone holds AA, KK or QQ here and they spike the set on the turn, you're going to lose the pot regardless of whether you bet, since the chance they will fold any of those hands to your single flop-bet at this limit in a B&M is exactly 0%. Thus, when they set up, the fact that you didn't bet will save you money, not cost you.

(As an aside, I think that if you rolled your hand over face-up and revealed your set, AA and KK would still fold less than half the time. Hope is a powerful factor. (Of course in this pot, they're correct to take off the turn based on implied odds, but I digress...))

That having been said, overpairs to the board will usually bet in any case, so if one of these is out behind you, you're going to get your checkraise in.

If no overpair is out against you and the flop gets checked through, a lot of likely holdings that can't beat you - like unpaired overcards and possibly smaller pairs - have a chance to "catch up" (or so they think), and the card you give cheaply now may net you extra action on the expensive streets (especially if a small pair sets up). You also have little to fear from draws: the board is calico and no matter what card hits the turn, a straight is very unlikely.

However: even taking all the above into account, you should bet. This is a nice big pot that you want to win outright, rather than worry about getting in extra bets on future rounds. There's a decent chance you will get raised by the button, and a lesser chance that you'll be checkraised by someone in front of you. Additionally, while you are unlikely to knock out a double-overcard hand (which is great, since these hands have almost no chance to beat you), your bet, and/or the raise that may follow it, may knock out a hand like Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] - and this would be great too, since this is one of the few hands that actually has a shot, albeit a relatively remote one, to bust you.

Lots of good things can happen when you bet here, and very few bad ones, so go ahead and throw in your chips.

Best regards,
Jogger

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerstove:

Player 1 JJ: 27.97%
Player 2 Random: 13.0%
Player 3 Random: 13.0%
Player 4 Random: 13.0%
Player 5 TT+,AQs+,KQs+AQo+: 32.97%

There ya go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats WAY too optimistic. You're in a 2/4 B&M so without reads 3-better has AK, AA, KK, and maybe QQ. Thats it. Some players you could limit that even further to AA and KK, some people out to the range you gave.

You also can't just assume people have random hands. I think you can easily assume two different overcards are out there (and likely all three) in people's hands and probably an underpair. I can't see that capping this is a good idea.

And to whoever said you could cap almost on set value alone, you need a lot more players for that to be true (basically the whole table).

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pokerstove:

Player 1 JJ: 27.97%
Player 2 Random: 13.0%
Player 3 Random: 13.0%
Player 4 Random: 13.0%
Player 5 TT+,AQs+,KQs+AQo+: 32.97%

There ya go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats WAY too optimistic. You're in a 2/4 B&M so without reads 3-better has AK, AA, KK, and maybe QQ. Thats it. Some players you could limit that even further to AA and KK, some people out to the range you gave.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, you're in a B&M 2/4 game. Where do you play? Because if a reraise automatically means AA/KK/AK or maybe QQ, then you play in the worst 2/4 game in the world. It's called GAMBOOOLING.

Some players you could limit to AA and KK, but we are working without reads here (as you restated). So assuming the presence of AA or KK in the Pokerstove would be irrelevant to the discussion. However, it is considered in the reraiser's range.

When I ran this I wasn't all that concerned about accuracy; I was trying to illustrate to ncskiier why more info than a naked equity percentage is preferable.

However, to better the discussion, feel free to run and post some alternate numbers. Pokerstove is free.

[ QUOTE ]
You also can't just assume people have random hands. I think you can easily assume two different overcards are out there (and likely all three) in people's hands and probably an underpair. I can't see that capping this is a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are live 2/4 players who limped, called two, and called again. No strength can be assumed about their holdings until they tell you otherwise. Again, we have no reads here.

[ QUOTE ]
And to whoever said you could cap almost on set value alone, you need a lot more players for that to be true (basically the whole table).

[/ QUOTE ]

You've put four small bets into a pot of 23 small bet.

4/23 = 17.39%

You hit your set on the flop 1 in 7.5 times.

1/7.5 = 13.33%

That, right there, counts as an almost.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

Since this is bothering me:

Player 1 JJ: ~27.24%
Player 2 33+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J4s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,76s,65s,A2o +,K5o+,Q7o+,J7o+,T8o+,98o: ~14.1%
Player 3 33+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J4s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,76s,65s,A2o +,K5o+,Q7o+,J7o+,T8o+,98o: ~14.1%
Player 4 33+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J4s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,76s,65s,A2o +,K5o+,Q7o+,J7o+,T8o+,98o: ~14.1%
Player 5 TT+,AQs+,KQs,AQo+: ~30.37%

Players 2-4 are playing the top 50% of hands.

We now put them on the top 25% of hands:

Player 1 JJ: ~26.45%
Player 2 66+,A2s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,A7o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo: ~14.96%
Player 3 66+,A2s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,A7o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo: ~14.96%
Player 4 66+,A2s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,A7o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo: ~14.96%
Player 5 TT+,AQs+,KQs,AQo+: ~28.64%

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Exactly, you're in a B&M 2/4 game. Where do you play? Because if a reraise automatically means AA/KK/AK or maybe QQ, then you play in the worst 2/4 game in the world. It's called GAMBOOOLING.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are WAY more loose passive players at 2/4 than gamblers. At least in any east coast casino I've played in. In fact in any given session I'll likely see 1 or 2 preflop caps, and 5 or 6 3-bets. And I'm usually responsible for a third of them.

[ QUOTE ]

These are live 2/4 players who limped, called two, and called again. No strength can be assumed about their holdings until they tell you otherwise. Again, we have no reads here.


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think any strength can be assumed about their hand? There's a wide range of options, but you can certainly narrow it down a lot more than from "random hands".

[ QUOTE ]

You've put four small bets into a pot of 23 small bet.

4/23 = 17.39%

You hit your set on the flop 1 in 7.5 times.

1/7.5 = 13.33%

That, right there, counts as an almost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. Please come play in my games if you think thats close enough. Not to mention that you don't win with your set all 13% of the time.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are WAY more loose passive players at 2/4 than gamblers. At least in any east coast casino I've played in. In fact in any given session I'll likely see 1 or 2 preflop caps, and 5 or 6 3-bets. And I'm usually responsible for a third of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play at night (and not the daytime retired crowd), I stand by my "worst 2/4 game in America" statement.

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think any strength can be assumed about their hand? There's a wide range of options, but you can certainly narrow it down a lot more than from "random hands".

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, you can certainly narrow it down. Go ahead; narrow it down. I did above. Once again, Pokerstove is free.

[ QUOTE ]
Lol. Please come play in my games if you think thats close enough. Not to mention that you don't win with your set all 13% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, if your games really are that tight, it would be a waste of my time to play in your games. Not to mention, a 2/4 game like that, considering the rake + toke, seems like a bitch to beat.

Second, how close is almost then? Again, you criticize but provide no answer.

And, as the Pokerstove shows, your JJ will hold up on its own/backdoor into something more than enough without flopping a set.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are WAY more loose passive players at 2/4 than gamblers. At least in any east coast casino I've played in. In fact in any given session I'll likely see 1 or 2 preflop caps, and 5 or 6 3-bets. And I'm usually responsible for a third of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play at night (and not the daytime retired crowd), I stand by my "worst 2/4 game in America" statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't beat a loose-passive game, you can't beat anything.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't think any strength can be assumed about their hand? There's a wide range of options, but you can certainly narrow it down a lot more than from "random hands".

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, you can certainly narrow it down. Go ahead; narrow it down. I did above. Once again, Pokerstove is free.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why, I don't care enough to download it and do it. I stand by my comment that your pokerstove analysis was very optimistic in the hands you were facing. You don't agree that assuming you're facing 3 completely random hands is a little silly?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lol. Please come play in my games if you think thats close enough. Not to mention that you don't win with your set all 13% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, if your games really are that tight, it would be a waste of my time to play in your games. Not to mention, a 2/4 game like that, considering the rake + toke, seems like a bitch to beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you retarded? When did a loose-passive game mean it was tight?

I think I'm done here since you can't seem to accept that a) random hands are not a realistic range to put 3 of 5 players on, b) 2/4 games are often loose/passive and VERY easy to beat, c) that many plays in poker would be 'almost' correct by your definition, and if you made them all you'd be very bad.

Edit: Maybe you just need a definition of loose-passive: loose meaning many people play too many hands and play them too far. Passive meaning they don't raise/3-bet/cap without the nuts (and even then they'll sometimes just call to keep the game friendly).

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why, I don't care enough to download it and do it. I stand by my comment that your pokerstove analysis was very optimistic in the hands you were facing. You don't agree that assuming you're facing 3 completely random hands is a little silly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Profound. If you don't care enough to provide anything new, then why comment at all?

I conceded earlier that three random hands is excessive; that's why I ran the numbers on the top 50% of hand and the top 25% of hands (which you have ignored).

See, when a question comes up, I like to find an answer. Not write, "That's wrong," and add nothing further.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you retarded? When did a loose-passive game mean it was tight?

I think I'm done here since you can't seem to accept that a) random hands are not a realistic range to put 3 of 5 players on, b) 2/4 games are often loose/passive and VERY easy to beat, c) that many plays in poker would be 'almost' correct by your definition, and if you made them all you'd be very bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good specific analysis here. And good work not quoting the entirety of my post.

a) Addressed above. I already reran Pokerstove. Your "reasoning" for not capping JJ still stinks.
b) Way to change the subject. You review the salad and ignore the steak.
c) Guess what, you're in a forum where all we discuss is *precisely* 'almost' correct decisions.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why, I don't care enough to download it and do it. I stand by my comment that your pokerstove analysis was very optimistic in the hands you were facing. You don't agree that assuming you're facing 3 completely random hands is a little silly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Profound. If you don't care enough to provide anything new, then why comment at all?

I conceded earlier that three random hands is excessive; that's why I ran the numbers on the top 50% of hand and the top 25% of hands (which you have ignored).

See, when a question comes up, I like to find an answer. Not write, "That's wrong," and add nothing further.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you retarded? When did a loose-passive game mean it was tight?

I think I'm done here since you can't seem to accept that a) random hands are not a realistic range to put 3 of 5 players on, b) 2/4 games are often loose/passive and VERY easy to beat, c) that many plays in poker would be 'almost' correct by your definition, and if you made them all you'd be very bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good specific analysis here. And good work not quoting the entirety of my post.

a) Addressed above. I already reran Pokerstove. Your "reasoning" for not capping JJ still stinks.
b) Way to change the subject. You review the salad and ignore the steak.
c) Guess what, you're in a forum where all we discuss is *precisely* 'almost' correct decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see your second hand pokerstove results. I must have missed it when posting my reply to your previous post. You don't think 50% of hands is maybe a little wide for 3 players to call a double sized raise? Anyway, I'm not going to continue arguing hand ranges with you. I'll let SSHE be my argument for not-capping with JJs.

b) The fact that you don't seem to understand typical 2/4 game conditions, or worse you don't seem to understand what loose-passive even means, tends to weaken your argument. You can claim I'm changing the subject, but basic poker knowledge seems pretty relevant to this discussion.

c) You're right we discuss them. Discussing is different from saying its a good play. You were defending the argument that you could call for set value when you were only getting 5:1 odds because it was "almost" correct.

I frequently don't quote everything because it would cause the posts to grow extremely fast. Was there something specific there you think I should have addressed?

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

In a 2/4 hand a few weeks back I had AJs in the SB, everyone limped in, I raised, everyone called(9 players!), I flopped the nut flush, first to act, I thought I would get tricky and check it hoping for a bet, it didn't happen, I ended up betting it out on the turn and ended up winning a good pot but my flop play stunk on this one. I should have bet out with the pot already good sized and a bunch of limpers yet to act.

For your hand: Cap PF, bet it out. Don't get too tricky esp. in 2/4

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against 5 opponents I doubt if you have an equity edge with JJ. (I'm sure someone will chime in w/ figures.)

Calculations show your equity to be around 19% against 4 limpers and one 3 bettor.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just contradicted yourself with your own figures.
Paraphrasing: You don't have an equity edge, yet you're getting 5-1 on a near 4-1 shot.

b

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would never cap preflop w/ JJ, rarely do w/ AA.


The question is, can I wait til the turn to c/r?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? You don't cap AA?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rarely, might be a stretch. I would say that when given the option I cap around 50% of the time.

I don't like to give away the strength of my hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

If it's that obvious when you cap preflop that you have AA/KK, you should widen your range.

You realize if you cap with QQ, JJ, AKs, AQs and sometimes AJs(lots of players going into the flop) preflop, it helps disguise when you have AA/KK?

Just a thought.

b

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

Not capping here is ultra nitty.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't see your second hand pokerstove results. I must have missed it when posting my reply to your previous post. You don't think 50% of hands is maybe a little wide for 3 players to call a double sized raise? Anyway, I'm not going to continue arguing hand ranges with you. I'll let SSHE be my argument for not-capping with JJs.

b) The fact that you don't seem to understand typical 2/4 game conditions, or worse you don't seem to understand what loose-passive even means, tends to weaken your argument. You can claim I'm changing the subject, but basic poker knowledge seems pretty relevant to this discussion.

c) You're right we discuss them. Discussing is different from saying its a good play. You were defending the argument that you could call for set value when you were only getting 5:1 odds because it was "almost" correct.

I frequently don't quote everything because it would cause the posts to grow extremely fast. Was there something specific there you think I should have addressed?

[/ QUOTE ]

a) I'm glad you're going to stop arguing hand ranges with me. But when did you ever start? You never presented your likely ranges anywhere in this thread (other than a reraise means AA/KK/AK or maybe QQ).

Now, if calling two more when already in (with sub-par holdings) isn't the definition of loose and passive, then what is?

Yeah, I did think 50% was a wide range. You didn't read the second set of Pokerstove results where I ran the middle three players as the top 25% of hands. I ran them both for comparison's sake.

Here's some more, putting ALL the villains on top 10% of hands:
Player 1 JJ: 24.243%
Player 2 88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo: 18.9%
Player 3 88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo: 18.9%
Player 4 88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo: 18.9%
Player 5 88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo: 18.9%

You're also not getting 5:1, you're getting 5.75:1. Anything over 17.39% equity is profitable.

And if you're gonna use SSHE as your rationale, try citing the friggin book. Again, you say I'm wrong, but counter with nothing.

b) Hey, I'm not the one claiming loose passives call reraises with only strong hands.

c) Discussing isn't saying something is a good play or a bad play. Discussing is saying WHY something is a good play or a bad play.

Seriously, read entire sentences (and apparently entire posts). I never claimed that you should cap JJ for set value alone. This isn't the difference between 2:1 and 10:1, this is a matter of percentage points. 7.5:1 and 5.75:1, plus implied odds.

I said it's almost correct to cap it for set value alone. Then, when you consider how strong JJ is unimproved (as verified by Pokerstove), it makes the decision clear.

See what I did right there - that's called a decision-making process.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Bet or checkraise monster flop that I capped preflop?
 

or you can just call the guy a nit and move on.