Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Playing live 2/4. 3/6 Almost every time I play now I see a few people who never ever raise with TT on up. I saw a lady yesterday not rasie PF with TT and she ended up winning the pot but because she didn't raise PF the pot never got that big. Same thing with some guy who had KK. He ended up winning a fair sized pot with his hand but it should have been twice the size as it was. Yea yea I know, most LHE players suck but these types of players are really hard to read at times because they never raise with big pairs. I guess you have to make a mental note on who plays this way at your table and bookmark it in your cranium.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Not a hell of a lot to say here other than raising big pairs is +ev and so when your opponents don't raise their big pairs they are missing out on value and decreasing thier chances to win the pot. Whatever you do don't discourage them from limping their pairs.

It's always beautiful to win a pot with AT by spiking an ace against KK.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Not raising Big pairs PF = Stupid. Definitely keep track of who plays this way, but don't credit them with a big pair every time you're in a hand with them. I tend to slow down with middle 1 pair type hands against these players, however you can extract huge value from them with big pairs and big hands as these players also usually play their big pair to the river regardless of the board. I've seen these players call 3bb cold on the turn with pocket QQ when the board was AK99.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

I never discourage opponets from making dumb plays, ever. I just mentally shake my head and try and make note of them as they come along which is often at lower limits.

I admit that in my pre-SSHE past I used to be a non-raiser of TT,JJ & various other PF raising hands when playing LHE. Boy did I put a stop to that practice.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

I always raise big pairs in LHE. I don't always reraise big pairs though.

If I feel like I'm already getting the field I want to play my pair against, whether HU or 3way, then I will sometimes s/c to disguise the strength of my hand. If I want to narrow the field further, I pop it.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

I raise them 95% of the time, depending on conditions. Well, with them I pretty much mean AA, because I raise KK 99.9% of the time and JJ/QQ always. I don't always cap when it comes back to me 3bet, and I sometimes just cold call TT/JJ depending on what happened.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

don't fall into the trap of being influenced by the outcome in a couple of isolated circumstances. these goofs are giving up tremendous long term value as well as imposing increased susceptibility to loss that IS NOT overcome by difficulty in handreading with them. to disguise your hands, raise more pf not less.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

There may a few instances that I don't raise with a big pair before the flop. These are all limit holdem I don't know how or if it would change in no limit.
1) It's a super loose/passive type game and I have QQ or JJ in the SB or BB and 5 people have already limped in.
EXPLANATION: You raise to make people fold or build the pot if you raise here it's likely everyone else will call anyway then when the flop comes without a Q but with an A or K you are dead. Even without an A or K it is somewhat likely that someone may have caught two pair, trips or a huge draw in this multiway pot. With AA and KK I'm still probably raising from the blinds but with AK,QQ and JJ I don't really see the point. From early position yes because some may fold but from the blind no.
2) I'm in a loose/aggressive or tight/aggressive game and I have AA or KK in the BB and someone open raises from late position.
EXPLANATION:From the SB you would raise for sure to isolate the raiser and lock out the BB from calling but from the big blind you sometimes may 3bet it but you could also just call hoping to disguise your hand and raise after the aggressive player bets the flop.
3) I'm in a loose/aggressive or tight/aggressive game and I haven't played a hand in a long time and it gets folded to me in late position and I have AA I may just limp.
EXPLANATION- The aggressive guys will see this as pure weekness and raise it and maybe if someone has something like AK they threebet it allowing me to cap it when it gets back to me.

So I would say in general it's best to raise with all big pairs before the flop but there may be some circumstances when you can mix it up and play it a little differently to throw people off.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
to disguise your hands, raise more pf not less.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that, alot. Good point. I admit, I DO give these guys too much credit sometimes.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Said by Nate tha' Great in Med. Stakes in a similar thread "You're not good enough to make up the extra .4 BB you miss after the flop. I'm not good enough. Mike Schneider is not good enough. Ray Zee is not good enough. Nobody is good enough. Except in very rare circumstances. Deception is worth only so much in limit hold 'em, and there are ways to be deceptive that give up far less EV. 99.9% of the time, failing to get as much action in with your aces before the flop is the wrong play, considering only the hand in a vacuum. 98.9% of the time it's the wrong play considering metagame circumstances. Anybody that puts eight bets in with top pair in the face of heavy resistance is a moron anyway, considering that you can always have a set -- or two pair, trips, a flush, a straight, given the board texture. You don't need to go out of your way to deceive morons. To the extent that slowplaying aces before the flop is correct, it is not against action players, but against weak-tight players."
(used without the authors permission)

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Why is it that some good BB players do not raise with their AA & KK on the on the big blind when everybody limped in?

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

I don't care if my opponents figure out that I will NEVER limp with JJ-AA. I'm betting these hand PF 100% of the time. It is quite rare that a situation arises where I really wish i'd disguised my big PP, or even a situation where I limped PF and want to pretend I have a big PP.

98% of the people who limp with big PP are the same people who overplay these hands post-flop.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Let me put it differently. On a very tight table, where an UTG raise will get the respect it (most often does not) deserves and limpers are isolation raised relentlessly, it can be correct to limp aces and maybe even kings a certain fraction of the time.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Actually, I might do what Badger described a portion of the time. But as soon as someone isolation raises me, I don't care about slowplaying anymore, I'm insta-3-popping this sucker pre-flop. I want chips in the pot, right now. Agree?

Edit: In my PT stats, it says under pre-flop stats, that only 1 time have I ever bet/called then raised. I think that 1 time was when I limped with a high PP then 3-bet the raise.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Yes, altough the tricky part here is that if you limp-3bet with AA you must also limp-3bet with other hands; balanced range and all. Do you? I don't. But the lesson taught and learned is usually "stop isolation raising me biatch" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it that some good BB players do not raise with their AA & KK on the on the big blind when everybody limped in?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) They're not as good as you think.
2) Something about the limpers makes them think they will make more on future rounds if they don't raise.
3) This is the one chink in their armour.

Good players don't pass up huge amounts of equity like this. Not at small stakes. In bigger games with knowledgable opponents, I don't know. But not down here with the fishies.


Big pairs have to be raised pre-flop. It doesn't matter if you're doing the raising or you let someone else do it (limp/cap...whatever). They need to be raised.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is it that some good BB players do not raise with their AA & KK on the on the big blind when everybody limped in?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) They're not as good as you think.
2) Something about the limpers makes them think they will make more on future rounds if they don't raise.
3) This is the one chink in their armour.

Good players don't pass up huge amounts of equity like this. Not at small stakes. In bigger games with knowledgable opponents, I don't know. But not down here with the fishies.


Big pairs have to be raised pre-flop. It doesn't matter if you're doing the raising or you let someone else do it (limp/cap...whatever). They need to be raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry mypost is not so clear, what I'm trying to say is that these good players dont raise the pot when on big blinds on a family pot meaning everybody is in. They do however raise it on the big blind when its not a family pot.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Another additonal point to raising big pairs PF, I am pretty tight playing low limits or any game for that matter and big hands don't come along a lot so I want to get as much $ in PF as possible. It can mean winning a lot more BBs in pots you do win and in the ones you don't hit it is merely a few more bets. I'll take a few big pots over losing a some bets here and there any day.

As for a tight low LHE table, there was one? Live, I have yet to see a table up to 4/8 that is very tight at all.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Not raising big pairs PF is a mistake. You raise big pairs PF. The difference is your profit.

Profit comes from subtracting their mistakes from the times you don't make mistakes. If they are limping big pairs and they hold up, the make less money from you than you make when you raise them and they chase and don't hit.

We are making a huge mistake when we let the bad play of bad players influence us into playing badly as well. We loosen up too much, call too much, pay off too often and get involved in situations where we throw off chips that are very hard to get back. Limit is a game of exploiting small edges. When we give up small edges, we're losing.

Simple as that.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

What about tight and agressive games? I´m sometimes limping AA from EP. Sometimes KK also, but never less. I play at online and those games even in 5-10$ are sometimes pretty tight. I never limp these if there is a bad/loose player/s in the ring. But if there is only good, generally tight players in the ring. Is it okay to limp then when you fear that your raise gets you only the blinds? And if you limp, somebody will isolation raise you with KJos, but he will fold that if you raise. So is it okay to sometimes limp with these in tough game? And if it is, how often?

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
I always raise big pairs in LHE. I don't always reraise big pairs though.

If I feel like I'm already getting the field I want to play my pair against, whether HU or 3way, then I will sometimes s/c to disguise the strength of my hand. If I want to narrow the field further, I pop it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about if there are already several people that have already put in 3 bets?

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

This was one of the main points I got from Lee Jones' LLHE book. Good PF hands don't come along with enough frequency to allow you to slow play them without giving up too much. If you want to disguise what you have and switch up your play, occasionally try playing a bad hand like it was AA

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

There is already a ton of responders all saying raising big pairs is EV+, I concur. Time to move on. I would not even add my vote to the landslide unless I felt I could mention something that has not been touched on by the other responders.

You hit the nail right on the head about making a note of who these players are. Live, there is a significant number of "old school" regulars who play low LHE at Commerce NOT raising big pairs PF. While this play is WRONG, take note of who plays this way. They play this way VERY CONSISTENLY. Be careful when you are in and hand with them, particularly HU, and they quietly hang around. They (generally) are not stupid in their post flop play. Your TPTK may not be good against them if an overpair could win and they are in the hand. They LOVE playing a stealth bomb. Know your opponent. IMO, average age, 60+. Average length of time as a player, 10 years +. Weak tight personified. I think I can point out almost all the 2/4 regulars at Commerce who do this, and most of the 3/6 & 4/8 players who have this habit.

I've posted before that I often do raise not AA from UTG only. Since I usually play the fewest hands at the table any raise tends to get more attention and it lets the field know that I do not raise every quality hand every time. Just as once in a while I would raise with a lower quality hand just so there is always a degree of doubt in my opponent's ability to put me on a hand.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
What about tight and agressive games?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I ever get in one, I'll let you know.

On the very rare occasion you get a table with someone who's raising more than once a month, you can limp, sure, but be sure there aren't six people between you and the raiser, otherwise, you're going to be a coinflip. Better raise.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

fishyak, I understand what you're saying and I have some of the same problems when I raise UTG. However, I also will pick up one or two callers with 85s and QJo. Always. They WANT to play a hand. They are less concerned with losing to a better hand than they are not winning with something they are sure is a winner, or could be a winner, or that might be a winner because it's obvious you're bluffing, etc.

Sat night at the Venetian, I did everything but turn over AA from the BB and still got a guy suck out on me with KJ on the river. He was probably the only one at the table that didn't know I had AA. An hour later, I had my chips back and then some.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Last night at Red Rock, this old guy to my right wouldn't raise a hand. He had AT in LP once when I had A7 in the SB and never raised me all the way to the river. Another time, I had AQs in the SB and was gone on the flop, not raising PF, but he called all the way with AK. I learned something from the first time and wasn't going to value bet him again. You'll win a smaller pot, but lose a smaller pot, too. Oh well.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

CJ, I think this issue be location specific. When in LV, I raise AA UTG because no one knows me and no one will. I'm just a tourist. At home, Commerce, while the player pool is huge, since I play most weekends I usually face some regulars. So to clarify, in virgin territory, the play is to raise AA UTG. In known territory with some known opponents, mixing it up becomes an issue and I'll just call AA UTG to mix it up, even with some small impact on EV.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
CJ, I think this issue be location specific. When in LV, I raise AA UTG because no one knows me and no one will. I'm just a tourist. At home, Commerce, while the player pool is huge, since I play most weekends I usually face some regulars. So to clarify, in virgin territory, the play is to raise AA UTG. In known territory with some known opponents, mixing it up becomes an issue and I'll just call AA UTG to mix it up, even with some small impact on EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just raise more hands UTG. Unless you plan on balancing your range here (limp reraisinng with other hands), players will notice that you only limp with aces and kings UTG. If they won't notice, you should raise because they will call anyway.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just raise more hands UTG. Unless you plan on balancing your range here (limp reraisinng with other hands), players will notice that you only limp with aces and kings UTG. If they won't notice, you should raise because they will call anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

One point I do guarantee is that NO ONE has EVER noticed my change in play UTG. 1) It is too infrequent live, and 2) they are attentive to raises, not limps.

If I have sat a table for a while, my raises tend to be taken far more seriously than average because I raise only quality hands, 99+, that do not happen all that often. I doubt that you recommend that I raise EV- hands from UTG PF. It's easy to say raise more hands, but what point is there if your hand is not EV+ in the first place? BTW, I would raise all other EV+ hands UTG except AA and AK.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
There may a few instances that I don't raise with a big pair before the flop. These are all limit holdem I don't know how or if it would change in no limit.
1) It's a super loose/passive type game and I have QQ or JJ in the SB or BB and 5 people have already limped in.

[/ QUOTE ]

YUCK! You are losing money by not raising here.[ QUOTE ]

EXPLANATION: You raise to make people fold or build the pot if you raise here it's likely everyone else will call anyway

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course they will, and I want them to, I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] money!
[ QUOTE ]

then when the flop comes without a Q but with an A or K you are dead. Even without an A or K it is somewhat likely that someone may have caught two pair, trips or a huge draw in this multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
HAHA.. you already have MUBS and we haven't even see a flop!
[ QUOTE ]

With AA and KK I'm still probably raising from the blinds but with AK,QQ and JJ I don't really see the point.

[/ QUOTE ]
The point is $$$, cash, benjamins, cheddah, what ever you want to call it! At least you are raising AA/KK.
[ QUOTE ]
From early position yes because some may fold but from the blind no.

[/ QUOTE ] Why do you want people to FOLD??? Arrghhh, we are raising for VAL-YOU!
[ QUOTE ]

2) I'm in a loose/aggressive or tight/aggressive game and I have AA or KK in the BB and someone open raises from late position.
EXPLANATION:From the SB you would raise for sure to isolate the raiser and lock out the BB from calling but from the big blind you sometimes may 3bet it but you could also just call hoping to disguise your hand and raise after the aggressive player bets the flop.

[/ QUOTE ] Again, you are losing $$ here. What happens when the guy checks his TT behind on a QJ2 flop? When I most likely have the best hand, I want to have other people putting money in my pot![ QUOTE ]

3) I'm in a loose/aggressive or tight/aggressive game and I haven't played a hand in a long time and it gets folded to me in late position and I have AA I may just limp.
EXPLANATION- The aggressive guys will see this as pure weekness and raise it and maybe if someone has something like AK they threebet it allowing me to cap it when it gets back to me.

[/ QUOTE ] Good job 3betting by the guy w/ AK, at least he is playing good poker. Most people have no clue regarding how the other people around them are playing. You can sit at a table and fold the next 30 hands.. then wake up w/ AA in EP and raise only to have 2 others cold call w/ QTs and KJo. Why do they do this? Because they have no clue what is going on around them, they suck, and they want to give you all their chips.

So you limp AA in late position and go 3 handed to a T42 rainbow flop and get run over by SBs T4o. I see this all the time and usually here "Damn, I can not win w/ AA evah!" right after.
[ QUOTE ]

So I would say in general it's best to raise with all big pairs before the flop but there may be some circumstances when you can mix it up and play it a little differently to throw people off.

[/ QUOTE ]

In limit, there is rarely a case where this is true; at least in the games I have played up to 30/60 live.

I have seen it done in hyper-aggro NL games (referring to a LRR), but I suck at NL, so... no comment.

I will add that there are correct times to limp or cold call with hands like 99-QQ in tourneys, but we are not in that forum.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

OP here. I think that maybe because I am starting to play more live LHE that I have been seeing a lot of limping in with big pairs. They are also the ones who are always calling and rarely raising at all. I guess because that I always raise em PF and reraise em that I am still a bit astounded when people flip over KK on the showdown and they won the pot but failed to raise the hand PF in or out of position at all. I am so programmed to play my agg PF style with big pairs that I am not yet used to it but I am starting to see a myriad of lame plays and trying to file them for present & future use.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Just don't file limping big PPs away for use at all! Keep that locked in the closet. you want to be raising these hands for several reasons:

1. value
2. value
3. value
4. people are gonna cold call a lot anyhow = more $$

Sure big PPs play better against fewer people, but don't take that the wrong way and just limp because a bunch of people are already in. Even if we happened to be playing 20 handed, and I'm in the BB w/ AA after the entire table limps, I still raise and it is for value.

BTW, live poker is so great because it is SOOOOO passive typically and you make a killing on the hands you win and usually will not get punished to bad win you lose.

Winning hands being big pots + losing hands being minimal investment = a good session.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

Bravos1,the point of my original post was that I thought that it was absurd that anyone would NOT raise PF with big pairs. I'm filing these lame plays that players make so I will recognize them, take advantage of them & not make them myself.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bravos1,the point of my original post was that I thought that it was absurd that anyone would NOT raise PF with big pairs. I'm filing these lame plays that players make so I will recognize them, take advantage of them & not make them myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK.. move along...nothing to see here then

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
I always raise big pairs in LHE. I don't always reraise big pairs though.

If I feel like I'm already getting the field I want to play my pair against, whether HU or 3way, then I will sometimes s/c to disguise the strength of my hand. If I want to narrow the field further, I pop it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only time I ever cold call with big pairs preflop is with position against skilled opponents in a tight game, and neither condition is very common. I know too many players who will cold call 3 or 4 bets in late position with crap to do otherwise.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it that some good BB players do not raise with their AA & KK on the on the big blind when everybody limped in?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've just defined someone who is not a good BB player.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is it that some good BB players do not raise with their AA & KK on the on the big blind when everybody limped in?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) They're not as good as you think.
2) Something about the limpers makes them think they will make more on future rounds if they don't raise.
3) This is the one chink in their armour.

Good players don't pass up huge amounts of equity like this. Not at small stakes. In bigger games with knowledgable opponents, I don't know. But not down here with the fishies.


Big pairs have to be raised pre-flop. It doesn't matter if you're doing the raising or you let someone else do it (limp/cap...whatever). They need to be raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry mypost is not so clear, what I'm trying to say is that these good players dont raise the pot when on big blinds on a family pot meaning everybody is in. They do however raise it on the big blind when its not a family pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't make much of a difference, really. If there are 7+ players limping in front of the BB, it is EV+ to raise ANY pocket pair if only for set value.

Re: Not raising Big pairs PF
 

[ QUOTE ]
Playing live 2/4. 3/6 Almost every time I play now I see a few people who never ever raise with TT on up. I saw a lady yesterday not rasie PF with TT and she ended up winning the pot but because she didn't raise PF the pot never got that big. Same thing with some guy who had KK. He ended up winning a fair sized pot with his hand but it should have been twice the size as it was. Yea yea I know, most LHE players suck but these types of players are really hard to read at times because they never raise with big pairs. I guess you have to make a mental note on who plays this way at your table and bookmark it in your cranium.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a lot of correct opinions in this thread, but not really any meat to the discussion.

The reason why AA should be raised preflop, even in a ten way pot, is because of pot equity considerations, and the only way to understand why is to run AA through pokerstove to check out the results. I selected several hands that had a good chance of running down AA while making sure that both other A's were taken so AA will not improve. I ran the results in a ten way pot, and I found that the worst preflop equity I could get with AA was about 28%, and I was trying to get it as low as possible by manually selecting the villains' holdings. Against 9 random hands, AA comes up with 30% equity pretty consistantly, so it is true that AA will lose MOST of the time in those spots.

However, the key here is that AA is only putting in 10% of the money preflop. So, what we have here is an overlay...a gambler's dream. If I'm only putting 10% of the money into a pot that I"m going to win 30% of the time, why should I hold back? I want to risk as much as possible.

Then, we need to consider this. The guy who limps with AA is saving the table a lot of bets in the long run.