Reraise gone wrong
 

Stars 20/r/a
Button is tightish at 14/7 over 50. He hasn't attacked my BB yet in about half an hour at the table.
His stack 5600
My stack 8000

Blinds 100/200

I am BB holding J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Preflop: Folds to button, button raises to 600, SB folds, hero reraises to 2000, button calls.

Flop A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero?


Thats about as bad a flop i could of asked for. If he has about 5000 in his stack at start of hand i likely just push from BB but i thought he was a hair deep (maybe not?)

Whats your move on this awful flop?

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

I think check/folding sucks but is probably the best line to take.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

Let's see we have 4100 in the pot, he has 3600 left and you have 6000 left.

This is an ugly, ugly flop for you, as even if he didn't hit an A or Q he can easily like this enough to push anything you do. If you check to him I think he has to be pushing the flop and you're sent folding, so the only way you're taking this is by betting right now.

I hate doing this, but I want to just lead out 1600 or so and fold to a push despite the ridiculous odds you'd be getting. At that point you know he either has an A or a Q and you're drawing to 2 outs, or in the very best case for you he has a flush draw and maybe straight draw and over along with it.

Personally I would've raised to 1800 or so PF, maybe even 1600. That keeps the pot small enough to where you can lead out a probe bet on the flop and still get away from it if he pushes. As it stands that is VERY hard to do. The pot is just way too big here for your stack sizes, and raising to 1600 or so PF he's still going to lay down anything he would've laid down to 2k, so why build the pot bigger than necessary?

I want to try and lead this flop but with stack sizes I just can't justify I don't think. I think you bet 3k and hope he folds. [censored] spot but I can't get myself to check/fold with a pot that big. He's folding any PP here, could be folding a Q giving you credit for an A, etc. He could also be calling flush draws which you're ahead of slightly.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

check

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

With most opponents when you hit them for 2000 it says "your about to be all in on the flop anyway" so i expect them to fold/shove either of which i'm fine with.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

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this is a pretty common mistake that ppl make. They are uncomfortable with awkward spots and therefore view them as -ev. If you reraise to 2k here and your opponent calls with a lot of his opening range, he is making a massively -ev mistake, provided you can play well enough post flop. Given that you have JJ tho and there will be roughly 1 pot sized bet left on the flop, it's pretty hard to play so bad that he can have an edge calling with most of his preflop range.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

With most opponents when you hit them for 2000 it says "your about to be all in on the flop anyway" so i expect them to fold/shove either of which i'm fine with.

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But then you're stuck in the situation you're at on this flop if they call and you're OOP. You have to consider stack sizes when re-raising. Hell I would've probably pushed PF rather than raising to 2k in this spot. As I said I just hate raising to 2k here as it builds the pot way too big and you have no idea how to play post-flop if overs hit.

If he's gonna fold to 1400 more, I think he's folding to 1-1.2k more as well. As played, you either have to check/fold the flop or put him in. I would not push the flop though, I'd bet like 1/2-3/4 of his remaining stack to sort of beg for a call.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

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this is a pretty common mistake that ppl make. They are uncomfortable with awkward spots and therefore view them as -ev. If you reraise to 2k here and your opponent calls with a lot of his opening range, he is making a massively -ev mistake, provided you can play well enough post flop. Given that you have JJ tho and there will be roughly 1 pot sized bet left on the flop, it's pretty hard to play so bad that he can have an edge calling with most of his preflop range.

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Ansky i'm a little confused about your post. Are you saying what hes done is massively incorrect, my reasoning for the reraise is incorrect, or both?

In the hand I c/f'd the flop, does that change anything in terms of what raise we should be making if i'm willing to release?

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

I dunno, bet fold? I was thinking bet around 2k, but maybe you could get away with betting less. As he'll be committed by anything around 1500 or so... if he calls, check fold check fold.

cjx

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

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this is a pretty common mistake that ppl make. They are uncomfortable with awkward spots and therefore view them as -ev. If you reraise to 2k here and your opponent calls with a lot of his opening range, he is making a massively -ev mistake, provided you can play well enough post flop. Given that you have JJ tho and there will be roughly 1 pot sized bet left on the flop, it's pretty hard to play so bad that he can have an edge calling with most of his preflop range.

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Ansky i'm a little confused about your post. Are you saying what hes done is massively incorrect, my reasoning for the reraise is incorrect, or both?

In the hand I c/f'd the flop, does that change anything in terms of what raise we should be making if i'm willing to release?

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I think he was saying both of you were incorrect in your plays. I think, and I agree. He should've just shoved PF if he wanted to call your re-raise, and you should've either bet less to keep the pot small or shoved to begin with (or effective shove). As it stands you bet the 1 amount that makes this flop unplayable, and sacraficed 2000 chips by check-folding the flop.

You have to realize you're trying to make him make a mistake for you to gain EV. He may have made a mistake by calling your PF raise, but not if you're simply just going to check fold a scary flop with overs. What are you doing if this flop has Axx? Kxx? I'd like to hear what your plan is for a range of flops, because as you played this I think you're just donking off chips.

What are you doing on a T-high flop? I just don't see you getting paid off by worse hands here post-flop, and if you aren't going to push the flop then you can't get him to fold a better hand.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

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this is a pretty common mistake that ppl make. They are uncomfortable with awkward spots and therefore view them as -ev. If you reraise to 2k here and your opponent calls with a lot of his opening range, he is making a massively -ev mistake, provided you can play well enough post flop. Given that you have JJ tho and there will be roughly 1 pot sized bet left on the flop, it's pretty hard to play so bad that he can have an edge calling with most of his preflop range.

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Ansky i'm a little confused about your post. Are you saying what hes done is massively incorrect, my reasoning for the reraise is incorrect, or both?

In the hand I c/f'd the flop, does that change anything in terms of what raise we should be making if i'm willing to release?

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I am saying you should not say things like "we want him to fold." When he calls, chances are he is making a mistake.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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I am saying you should not say things like "we want him to fold." When he calls, chances are he is making a mistake.

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Calling could be a huge mistake but it could also be the correct play with QQ+. Plus he can easily have overs. I'm not sure what people are raising PF and calling your re-raise with here though, as I'd almost always be folding or pushing. I really am not sure what to put this guy on, maybe a lower PP. Actually the more I think about it I want to put him on a low PP.

And Bond, you say "we want him to fold" which is clearly not the correct play then. If you want him to fold you want to raise enough that's committing him AIPF. Otherwise you want to raise small enough to keep the pot manageable post-flop.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

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this is a pretty common mistake that ppl make. They are uncomfortable with awkward spots and therefore view them as -ev. If you reraise to 2k here and your opponent calls with a lot of his opening range, he is making a massively -ev mistake, provided you can play well enough post flop. Given that you have JJ tho and there will be roughly 1 pot sized bet left on the flop, it's pretty hard to play so bad that he can have an edge calling with most of his preflop range.

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Ansky i'm a little confused about your post. Are you saying what hes done is massively incorrect, my reasoning for the reraise is incorrect, or both?

In the hand I c/f'd the flop, does that change anything in terms of what raise we should be making if i'm willing to release?

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I think he was saying both of you were incorrect in your plays. I think, and I agree. He should've just shoved PF if he wanted to call your re-raise, and you should've either bet less to keep the pot small or shoved to begin with (or effective shove). As it stands you bet the 1 amount that makes this flop unplayable, and sacraficed 2000 chips by check-folding the flop.

You have to realize you're trying to make him make a mistake for you to gain EV. He may have made a mistake by calling your PF raise, but not if you're simply just going to check fold a scary flop with overs. What are you doing if this flop has Axx? Kxx? I'd like to hear what your plan is for a range of flops, because as you played this I think you're just donking off chips.

What are you doing on a T-high flop? I just don't see you getting paid off by worse hands here post-flop, and if you aren't going to push the flop then you can't get him to fold a better hand.

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WarDekar,

It's nice that you are posting a lot here. There aren't that many active members of MTT anymore and the forum has been [censored] lately. However, you gotta be careful in what you say, as I have noticed much of what you are saying is complete bullshlt.

"What are you doing on a T-high flop? I just don't see you getting paid off by worse hands here post-flop, and if you aren't going to push the flop then you can't get him to fold a better hand."

I have no idea what you are saying here. You mean you think he will ever fold a better hand on a board like T35r? This is an amazing flop, and if you push it is DEFINITELY for value and will get called by a HUGE part of his range.

"and you should've either bet less to keep the pot small or shoved to begin with"

This is ridiculous. Why do you want to keep the pot small? We have JJ to a button raise, bombs away. Shoving is ridiculous because it is such a massive overbet that it makes the villain much less likely to make a mistake (ie, most players are much more likely to call 2k here w/ 88 or the like, rather than call a shove.)

"He may have made a mistake by calling your PF raise, but not if you're simply just going to check fold a scary flop with overs. "

There is nothing wrong w/ check folding versus certain villains here, it is very dependant on the exact flop and his timing and his bet size. If I checked and my opponent went all in on this board, there is a good chance I would call here w/ JJ. check folding does not make your pf reraise -ev by any means if check folding is the best play.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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If you want him to fold you want to raise enough that's committing him AIPF. Otherwise you want to raise small enough to keep the pot manageable post-flop.


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Stop using fluff arguments. When I say fluff, I mean they are statement that sound like they have some semblence of logic or meaning, but in reality they are just retarded things that someone like Norman Chad would say. Every decision should be made to maximize ev, these statements are not in the correct direction.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

Um, i don't beleive i said "we want him to fold" anywhere. I did say we don't want him to call, by which i meant we want him to commit his stack. Guess that wasn't as implied as i thought.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

Sorry Ansky, I'm posting more to try and get better so thanks for railing me.

I don't know what I'm trying to say here honestly. You are right trying to get him to make the mistake of calling here PF is good but what's his range for calling this re-raise PF?

You say villian is much more likely to call here with 88, well if he calls with 88 and you plan on check folding this flop, you made the mistake didn't you? I think a villian is just as likely to call a bigger raise with 88 as raising to 2k. I didn't say push, I said effectively put him all-in, there's a difference. Well I did say shove in the sentence you quoted, but I type fast and thoughts flow too freely sometimes. And also note that I did not say I would push this at all. I never ever would. My point was, Bond was quoted as saying "we want him to fold." Well if you want him to fold pre-flop, you should've just raised more pre-flop.

My goal is not to get him to fold pre-flop. My goal is to get more chips out of him. That's why I raise to 1600 or 1800. If he calls, we can still lead the flop and get away to a push. But he also has to put us on a pretty decent hand so that when we lead the flop he's folding a lot of hands we're probably beating.

EDIT: Sorry Bond, I was assuming you actually said that when Ansky quoted it, I guess you didn't.

And yes the point of every play is to maximize EV, I think my EV is maximized by raising to 1600 or 1800 and playing from there.

To Bond: As I said, if your goal was to commit him pre-flop, I think you should've raised a bit MORE. As it stands you're left in no-mans land on this flop.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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Um, i don't beleive i said "we want him to fold" anywhere. I did say we don't want him to call, by which i meant we want him to commit his stack. Guess that wasn't as implied as i thought.

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sorry I was responding to this:
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With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.


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which i think is just kinda silly, but yeah, u didnt say we want him to fold.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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If you want him to fold you want to raise enough that's committing him AIPF. Otherwise you want to raise small enough to keep the pot manageable post-flop.


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Stop using fluff arguments. When I say fluff, I mean they are statement that sound like they have some semblence of logic or meaning, but in reality they are just retarded things that someone like Norman Chad would say. Every decision should be made to maximize ev, these statements are not in the correct direction.

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LOL, ansky please don't take any more poker/2+2 vacations.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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Um, i don't beleive i said "we want him to fold" anywhere. I did say we don't want him to call, by which i meant we want him to commit his stack. Guess that wasn't as implied as i thought.

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sorry I was responding to this:
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With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.


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which i think is just kinda silly, but yeah, u didnt say we want him to fold.

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Oh and I agree Ansky, that depending on the player I might be calling his push on the flop.

I'd like to know though, why you think raising to 1600 or 1800 PF is a bad idea? IMO it allows you to lead this flop and get away when you know you're beat. It also will extract some more chips from worse hands that are going to call you PF and fold to your flop bet, and possibly even get chips from a hand that's beating you on the flop.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

war,
if we start with the assumption that the same range of hands will call 1600 as will call 2000, and we agree that that range of hands is behind JJ, then seems pretty simple to then say that in a situation with less than 30BB effective stacks the bet that gets him to commit more preflop with an inferior range is better than the one that gets him to commit less. Yes lots of flops are awkward, but being afraid of those flops hamstrings the value of your hand preflop and keeps you from really making the villain make as big a mistake as he is willing to.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

Good post, ansky. Wardecker has a lot of me in him from like six months ago. Hopefully he will improve. I'm sure others don't believe I have but I wholeheartedly agree with ansky's logic here.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

Help me to understand something here. I come from the school of thought that says 3-5 times the BB is an appropriate raise in any position unless you want to frighten away the competition, steal the blinds or self-destruct. Now, coming from that school I could be on that button with AA. If you come in with that 2 grand reraise? You bet I'm raising or calling. If it's AA or KK I'm calling sweetie.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

Bond, you can check-fold this flop. Would you check on this flop with AKo?

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

c/f

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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c/f

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check/gut, usually fold.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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Help me to understand something here. I come from the school of thought that says 3-5 times the BB is an appropriate raise in any position unless you want to frighten away the competition, steal the blinds or self-destruct. Now, coming from that school I could be on that button with AA. If you come in with that 2 grand reraise? You bet I'm raising or calling. If it's AA or KK I'm calling sweetie.

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Button could be raising with an very wide range of hands of which AA/KK is a very tiny percentage of. JJ is ahead of the vast majority of the buttons posible hands so getting the button to commit more money with a calling range that is still behind JJ is the best EV play at the moment.

Just because sometimes the button has AA doesn't mean we shouldn't maximize EV. It's kind of like not wanting to cross the street to go to work because something bad might happen.

Re: Reraise gone wrong
 

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Bond, you can check-fold this flop. Would you check on this flop with AKo?

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Sometimes.