Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

I really wish people would stop sharing all of this information, but Rizen wrote a great article on the game of poker evolving, something I've spoken a ton with to other people about. He speaks on how HOH I & II are getting outdated, because the masses are now following the concepts outlined in that book. Its a good read, but stop giving people all of this information!!

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really wish people would stop sharing all of this information, but Rizen wrote a great article on the game of poker evolving, something I've spoken a ton with to other people about. He speaks on how HOH I & II are getting outdated, because the masses are now following the concepts outlined in that book. Its a good read, but stop giving people all of this information!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, quit disseminating. Linky?

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

I don't know what that word means.

Here is the link:

http://www.pocketfives.com/44C1FBCF-...680C28543.aspx

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

mike beat me to it..

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

Over/under on how long it takes for Rizen's article to get outdated?

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

that was a good article mikey, thanks for the heads up.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

I think what he said about M and waiting longer to push is very true. I used to start pushing when my M was about 9 or 10. But I found I was getting called a great deal and some how my 74o was not holding up [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I find lately I can let my M get as low as 4 or 5 and still recover. If I have a decent hand I will more than likely double up.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

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Over/under on how long it takes for Rizen's article to get outdated?

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The examples are probably already outdated. As mikeymer said originally, the concept of the article is more about keeping up with and ahead of the evolution of poker than specific plays. I used Harrington in the title to make it catchy, and because his teachings are probably the most widely and used in online poker right now, but in truth it could be called anything. If there is any lesson I've been taught through success and having videos of myself playing up on the internet, it's that your game must be in a constant state of forward progression.

The old adage that if you're not moving forward, you're moving backward, rings quite true in poker IMO.

-Rizen

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

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that was a good article mikey, thanks for the heads up.

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Yeah, I tried talking about a few of these things a week ago but wasn't understood, it's good to have it in such an articulate form.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

the only thing i disagree with is that harrington's books are fantastic. they're marginal at best, teach you how to play terrible postflop, and they were archiac right after they came out. the author of this article writes a decent post though in the basic idea of staying ahead of the evolution of the game.

of course, you could just play a sick, unexploitable style, if you don't want to evolve your own game.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

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of course, you could just play a sick, unexploitable style, if you want mediocre results.

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FYP (unless of course you're playing hu with aba/antonius/etc. in which case yay for you!)

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

my strategy is to stay so far behind that my old strats are the new cutting edge strats once again.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

Nice article, but after reading the OP I expected it to be groundbreaking.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

I dunno, if you're playing truly unexploitably at all times, I'm pretty sure your results would be phenomenal

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nice article, but after reading the OP I expected it to be groundbreaking.

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i haven't read it yet but i also was/am expecting it to be groundbreaking after reading op's rant.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

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I dunno, if you're playing truly unexploitably at all times, I'm pretty sure your results would be phenomenal

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No one can really quantify what playing unexploitably is, so it's obviously somewhat up to interpretation, but I disagree (if we ignore things like tilt that normally hurt a good player's win rate). You end up making so many mistakes (at non super tough games) that your winrate would almost certainly be lower than a good regular. I used this example in another thread about this, but think about when you have two nits sitting to your left. You are going to be making so so many mistakes when it's folded to you on the button (not raising enough, calling 3bets too much, 4betting too much, etc.) Obviously you'll still be making money in that spot, but significantly less. I think the same principle holds pretty much whoever is at the table, assuming you play better than them.

edit: sorry for the hijack, it was a good article rizen [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Steve

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

i agree with steve. playing unexploitably vs. people who will try to exploit you is good. playing unexploitably vs. donks who will not exploit you and in turn make much bigger mistakes themselves is fine.

basically, i think playing unexploitably under all circumstances is +ev, but playing 'exploitably'(taking transparent lines or making plays that good players would very easily exploit) vs. donks who won't realize this stuff is more +ev.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, if you're playing truly unexploitably at all times, I'm pretty sure your results would be phenomenal

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nah not in tournaments, i think this is incorrect.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

it's the theory of optimal play, a sklansky thing, but it's readable obv

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, if you're playing truly unexploitably at all times, I'm pretty sure your results would be phenomenal

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nah not in tournaments, i think this is incorrect.

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I guess you have way more experience in cash games than me so I could be off, but...don't situations like my two nits to your left example come up all the time in cash games? Aren't there people who you 3bet way too light because they just don't play back enough? etc. I think it applies close to as much at cash as tournaments.

Steve

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's the theory of optimal play, a sklansky thing, but it's readable obv

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not really sure what you're saying here...?

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

steve, i'm confused on what you're trying to say

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, if you're playing truly unexploitably at all times, I'm pretty sure your results would be phenomenal

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nah not in tournaments, i think this is incorrect.

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I guess you have way more experience in cash games than me so I could be off, but...don't situations like my two nits to your left example come up all the time in cash games? Aren't there people who you 3bet way too light because they just don't play back enough? etc. I think it applies close to as much at cash as tournaments.

Steve

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well yeah, ppl often reraise too much, or not enough. In tournaments its typically the case that they dont reraise enough. At higher stakes shorthanded cash they reraise what some might consider too much (but in reality often it is not too much because ppl take too long to adjust).

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

aejones, I'm saying playing a "sick, unexploitable style" is nowhere near optimal in all but the toughest of games.

ansky, I'd assume you pretty much break even (or win fairly small) against the better regulars in your games. Most of the money you win comes from the worse regulars and occasional huge fish. You don't win the most money from those people by playing unexploitably. edit: Those little adjustments in your pfr%/3bet%/cbet%/bluff%/etc. against the worse opponents are where the majority of your edge comes from

This whole argument is fairly stupid as we can't define unexploitable play, but I just don't understand why so many people seem to associate it with optimal play. The two are completely separate and very rarely the same.

Steve

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

Steve,

I would say that I agree obviously about optimization vs unexploitability. But what if I were to tell you that playing unexploitably includes playing optimally in certain ways against bad players, but in a more standard fashion against the more difficult, educated players? Really, this all has to do with nth level thinking and it's something I've written and talked quite a bit about but have not really shared with the community. FWIW, everyone knows this is obviously the key to poker, and 'staying one level ahead' will pretty much always be the elusive and nearly unattainable goal, achieved by only the best, and by some by accident.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

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the only thing i disagree with is that harrington's books are fantastic. they're marginal at best, teach you how to play terrible postflop, and they were archiac right after they came out. the author of this article writes a decent post though in the basic idea of staying ahead of the evolution of the game.

of course, you could just play a sick, unexploitable style, if you don't want to evolve your own game.

[/ QUOTE ] http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9820/aejonesqo9.jpg

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

Ok, I guess we just have different definitions of unexploitable and we actually agree with each other. FWIW, I'm 99% sure your's is wrong [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

I heard open-limping in MP2 is +EV now, is this true?

Can others elaborate?

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

lol I'm almost proud that I can afford to lose that much.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I heard open-limping in MP2 is +EV now, is this true?

Can others elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unexploitable.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

after shaniac's well, i predict open limping will become thenew open raising. discuss.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

Good article, Rizen.

One of the things that interests me most about the evolution of poker is the interaction between online and live play.

Obviously online play greatly sped up the overall learning curve, both because of the volume people play and the increased emphasis on quantitative analysis with statistical data and no live reads. The best online players are much farther along technically/quantitatively/mathematically than would have been possible without online play

Most interesting is how different low/mid limit live play is. Aggressive short-stack pushing and aggression in general is still looked at by a lot of exclusively live players, especially the fish in $500-$1000 buyin tournaments, as a weakness of online players. The $10k events probably track online evolution more closely, and everyone shoves a lot (albiet often horribly) in fast structured live tourneys, but a lot of live players who have had decent success in the mid levels have a completely different view of correct strategy. I think this is mostly because they play in weaker games and they don't have the proper sample size to analyze the aggression they think is bad play. I'm talking about completely standard stuff like threebet shoving AK, reraising hands other than AA-KK. Live cash games, (up to 5-10 at least) are also extremely loose-passive relative to online games, which creates a whole class of "good" players who are tight passive, yet win, and think the more aggressive play typical of online games is bad. I wonder how long it will take for the things online multitablers have learned playing 50k hands a month to fully seep into the live games, if it ever happens. Even if all the online pros quit online play and started playing full time live, it would take the broader group of live players years to play as many hands as could be played in one year online, so even if the evidence will eventually be out there in live results, it will take a while for everyone to realize what's happening. Maybe they never will, as long as the live poker economy gets enough money from old-school fish, old-school ideas will persist, because they can be more successful in that environment.

Also, completely aside, I'm curious what impact the Chen/Ankenmann book will eventually have. Because it doesn't provide tangible strategy advice in the way HArrington's M did, maybe it won't have much effect outside the brainy subset. I hope so.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

In tournaments, unexploitable play would cause you to make massive mistakes in late game. You wouldn't steal and resteal nearly enough, and you wouldn't choose your targets.

But, it wouldn't really hurt you in early game that much (For most it'd almost certainly help). You'd bluff a little too much and you wouldn't value bet enough, and you'd fold too much--but all of this is pretty subtle and not that significant.

In cash, it's all early game. I doubt there are many cash players who earn more than an unexploitable player would.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

yeah, aejones's definition is wrong.

and yeah steve, I was including people doing dumb things because of tilt/not paying attention/whatever. But like you said, it's pretty hard to say what that would consist of, and you may well be right about tournaments. I do think in cash games 3/6 and up, playing unexploitably 100% of the time would give you some pretty sick results.

but really I'm just guessing.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

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after shaniac's well, i predict open limping will become thenew open raising. discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

um shaniac was a day late,
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...0&fpart=all

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the only thing i disagree with is that harrington's books are fantastic. they're marginal at best, teach you how to play terrible postflop, and they were archiac right after they came out. the author of this article writes a decent post though in the basic idea of staying ahead of the evolution of the game.

of course, you could just play a sick, unexploitable style, if you don't want to evolve your own game.

[/ QUOTE ] http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9820/aejonesqo9.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

0WNAGE

THAY3R what'd you end up doing in the $55+R+A last night? That table we were at last night was disgusting...

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

war most likely he folded his way to FT than made a shove with AQo lost to 74s calling his 3bb shove in the BB and than he made a post bitching about a bad beat. He got 6th and brags about how good he is.

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

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war most likely he folded his way to FT than made a shove with AQo lost to 74s calling his 3bb shove in the BB and than he made a post bitching about a bad beat. He got 6th and brags about how good he is.

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Haha good stuff... Are you sure he didn't push J4?

Our table at one point consisted of: Me, THAY3R, ZBT, busto_soon, xthesteinx, gboro780, and PlayaPlz

Please tell me how that was fair?

Needless to say I got eliminated by the 1 losing player at the table...

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

I see 2 losing players lol

Re: Rizen just wrote a great article on P5\'s...
 

Playing unexploitably vs optimally is a great topic for discussion. From NLHTP:

"No matter who you are playing, the fundamental remains the same. For every play, try to think of what the perfect strategy [Paul: "unexploitable"] might be. Then adjust that strategy to capitalize on your opponents' weaknesses [Paul: "optimal"]. Be aware of how your strategy deviates from an unexploitable one, and watch out for opponents who might be trying to exploit your mistakes [Paul: so you can exploit their effort to exploit you]."

Online when multi-tabling I tend to shoot for unexploitable early and optimal late. Live I try to lean more toward optimal, but am willing to shift to unexploitable at tough tables.