Staying Away from Quality players
 

I see alot of you guys giving advice on staying away from quality players. What exactly do u mean? How do you guys suggest I stay away? Obviously im not going to fold AA or quality hands, but do you mean playing even tighter versus them, or fit or fold postflop? or What?

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

If the table is filled with good players, just change table and play somewhere else.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

And if there isn't another table then tighten up your starting hand selection and generally fold or raise. Good players chew up calling stations.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

When they are in a hand and your holding is less than premium, folding after they bet/raise is a great option. They usually will recognize your play and get out of your way most of the time when you show strength before them because they usually will not want to tangle with you.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

Staying away most of the time from players like me who fold most of their starting hands is a good idea. Not all the time but a lot of the time I have a hand

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

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And if there isn't another table then tighten up your starting hand selection and generally fold or raise. Good players chew up calling stations.

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Wrong, many good players who are used to playing good players are in trouble against calling stations. It requires a non-standard strategy. Especially when you throw another good player in the pot with the two of them.

What they mean is you don't fight for small pots against equally good, or better, players. You're not going to isolation raise them with QJo because you can outplay them postflop.

Damn, I love playing quality players, it's so much easier [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] (as in 2nd level quality, not 3rd please)

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

I ll take all the calling stations KTHX and just wait for spots to value bet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I agree that its really frustrating when they run good but your winrate can be really awesome playing with these 50 vpip donkeys.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

I ve been playing some 6max with total neverfoldem loose passives. It plays like a micro limit full ring table and most hands go to showdown. It took me a while to realize there s no fold equity. I agree that its really difficult to play them when you cant bluff or put them on a hand. At 6max I cant play tight either so I play my normal preflop game and raise less, bluff less and value bet more. It means I give up a lot of pots but I managed to get used to it. So it should be much easier playing full ring with them since you usually have premium hands. You just cant expect to have a right to win the pot just because you have the preflop lead. Yes it can be difficult to play when you have a table of TAGs and a few stations. You cant play power poker since they stations dont fold and you cant limp with multiway hands because the TAGs might raise. But once you figure out a strategy thats somewhere in the middle its still very profitable. You just have to learn to switch gears depending on the opponent. I would still pick a TAGs + stations table before a TAG only table. Its nice to have some fold equity but I still prefer thin value betting.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

brilliant, very well said. No reason to get chippy. Just value bet. Fold equity is a good approximation of zero in these games.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

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I ve been playing some 6max with total neverfoldem loose passives. It plays like a micro limit full ring table and most hands go to showdown. It took me a while to realize there s no fold equity. I agree that its really difficult to play them when you cant bluff or put them on a hand. At 6max I cant play tight either so I play my normal preflop game and raise less, bluff less and value bet more.

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At a 6max table with those characteristics, you most certainly can play tight. Yes, the blinds come around faster and your stack will dwindle while you wait for a premium hand, but when you do get it and hit the board, you can be assured of winning a huge pot.

To give an example, I was on a 6max table last night with two maniacs, a loose/passive, and a loose/aggressive on tilt--that made for 4 out of 5 opponents with VPIPs over 50. I played an insanely tight (for me) game and still walked away with a tidy profit after three of them had busted and the LAG had detilted himself.

As far as the OP's question goes, unless/until you are very comfortable with your postflop game, simply get out of the way when a good opponent raises preflop and you're either not holding a traditional 3betting hand, or not getting the proper pot odds to continue with a speculative one. That means making some folds that are probably -EV...things like folding AQs to a good player's EP raise, folding AJo or 88 on the button to his MP3 openraise, etc. You are making these preflop folds not in the belief that he'll always have a better hand (he won't, especially in the second case), but because he's going to outplay you postflop. So if you do end up holding the best hand, you're going to win a small pot. If you don't, you're going to lose a big one. That's not good for your win rate.

As you become more and more comfortable with hand/opponent reading and second & third level thinking, then you can try mixing it up with them from time to time. But until that point, you're generally better off making the occasional small mistake preflop (by folding) than allowing him to manipulate you into making a series of larger mistakes postflop.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

it dosen't matter much so long as you generally play tigher with them IN the pot with you and looser AGAINST them. as a simple example if you, a good player (who knows you're good), and a bad player are in a pot and rags flop and the good player bets you shouldn't chase him down without a good draw or quality hand such as a big pocket pair. if you chase him down with AK, AQ that's probably a bad play, because the bad player will call and the good player knows this consequently he has some sort of hand. tend to fold. however if it's just you can him and rags flop you can probably stick with him with a pair or even AK, AQ high a good portion of the time (not ALWAYS) because he would figure you'll fold most of the time (which you WILL do but you'll have to stop him from attempting these bluffs and semi-bluffs too often)

they won't bluff a man who wont fold, but they will value bet. they might try to move you off a hand however (if they recognize you're good).

against a good player i would tend to semi-bluff more, bluff very infrequently, and bet for value with only my stronger hands. also i would fold in marginal situations but recognize when a "marginal situation" against a bad player, might actually be a decent situation against a thinking player.

generally if they're equal skill level you'll break-even against them but they do reduce your hourly rate by sharing the profits of the lower quality players mistakes.

as long as there are enough players in the game who you're better than, or the bad players are so bad they're making a ton of mistakes - just stick around a play.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

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they won't bluff a man who wont fold, but they will value bet. they might try to move you off a hand however (if they recognize you're good).

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This is very true.

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as a simple example if you, a good player (who knows you're good), and a bad player are in a pot and rags flop and the good player bets you shouldn't chase him down without a good draw or quality hand such as a big pocket pair. if you chase him down with AK, AQ that's probably a bad play, because the bad player will call and the good player knows this consequently he has some sort of hand.

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Which is why that is untrue. If I'm in a pot vs. a terrible loose/passive and an ABC TAG, I'm betting that flop 100% of the time with AJ, AT, even KQ. Not because I believe my hand is better than the TAG's (assuming he coldcalled, which by the way, is not a mark of a good TAG), but because I believe I have a value bet vs. the bad player and because I believe this will cause the ABC TAG to fold a better, non-paired hand, sometimes even a small PP. If they both call, I have a pretty easy check/fold on the turn (assuming I don't improve and the pot isn't laying correct odds to see a river).

I know I said above that you should often fold a hand like AQ vs. a good player's EP raise, but when we're talking about that same player raising from later in the order, and especially after a bad player has entered the pot, that's a 3betting hand. You often have a better hand than he does, and you want him to know that so he can get out of the way & let you take the donk's money that time.

Understand, in most situations you're better off just avoiding playing a pot against these players unless/until you feel you can hold your own against them postflop. But, when you do have a hand good enough to enter a pot against them, you should be doing so very aggressively and keeping up the aggression until he gives you a reason to do otherwise.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

Even quality players have weaknesses. Depending on what their weaknesses are, you can exploit them.

Calling stations: call down too much with hands that cant win because of lack of trust, awareness, and handreading skills. Will rarely raise due to lack of certainty. Strategy: B/F all day, never bluff, play solid cards, i.e. straight forward

Emotional players: these guys betting patterns revolve around how their running and the result of the hand. You have to sort of forget poker and be aware of what is going thru their mind. These players tilt like crazy and try hopeless bluff. Strategy: Let them bet away their money, and call them, even with some marginal holdings. Get into raising wars with them when they are tilting. They will spew away tons of money.

Notice these two types are equally bad players, and the strategy for beating them is quite different. Often you cant value bet someone who missed, but who will bet your hand for you if you play like a little girl. You cant induce bluffs out of a calling station who will never bet unless they have an extremely good hand.

Good players: there are many good players I know, but many of them have huge leaks and weaknesses. Figure out what their weaknesses are and take advantage of those. Figure out when they are playing less then optimal.

But in general, if you see a table full of quality players, and another game is available, you should choose the other game. That's just common sense.

-J

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

Basically you just have to look out for them and be careful in HU or 3 way spots. In multiway pots, they're pretty predictable as with all the other players in the pot, they can't really get that creative and have to play much more str8 forward.

One way to learn how to play them is learn how they play. Recognize it. Then find a counter for what they're doing. To me, that's one of the funner parts of the game.

b

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

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they won't bluff a man who wont fold, but they will value bet. they might try to move you off a hand however (if they recognize you're good).

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That is such an awesome move, to be value raising the LAG on the turn, thereby bluffing the TAG out of the pot. For example you have AQ highcards, 3 people to flop, LAG bets, you call, TAG calls. You're pretty sure he has a medium pair now, or he wouldn't overcall you (!). Turn is a king that misses you completely, LAG instant bets his crap, you raise. TAG thinks and folds, little choice he has. LAG calls, check the river, you check behind and win the pot ace high. Awesome.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

harv,

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Which is why that is untrue. If I'm in a pot vs. a terrible loose/passive and an ABC TAG, I'm betting that flop 100% of the time with AJ, AT, even KQ. Not because I believe my hand is better than the TAG's (assuming he coldcalled, which by the way, is not a mark of a good TAG), but because I believe I have a value bet vs. the bad player and because I believe this will cause the ABC TAG to fold a better, non-paired hand, sometimes even a small PP.

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i think that is a bad play. ace-high is usually no good here, and you need to improve by the river because the loose guy will chase you down and if the good player has something, you will be charged the maxiumum. i think reverse implied odds say fold. i'm assuming a typical game where a guy will go to the river with any draw, or stay to the showdown with any pair. a bet there is throwing away money.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

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That is such an awesome move, to be value raising the LAG on the turn, thereby bluffing the TAG out of the pot. For example you have AQ highcards, 3 people to flop, LAG bets, you call, TAG calls. You're pretty sure he has a medium pair now, or he wouldn't overcall you (!). Turn is a king that misses you completely, LAG instant bets his crap, you raise. TAG thinks and folds, little choice he has. LAG calls, check the river, you check behind and win the pot ace high. Awesome.

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that sounds like a nice theoretical fancy play, but in the real world that's a big loser. you might be able to score with that and pat yourself on the back, but in the long run you'de make more money not attempting that.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

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harv,

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Which is why that is untrue. If I'm in a pot vs. a terrible loose/passive and an ABC TAG, I'm betting that flop 100% of the time with AJ, AT, even KQ. Not because I believe my hand is better than the TAG's (assuming he coldcalled, which by the way, is not a mark of a good TAG), but because I believe I have a value bet vs. the bad player and because I believe this will cause the ABC TAG to fold a better, non-paired hand, sometimes even a small PP.

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i think that is a bad play. ace-high is usually no good here, and you need to improve by the river because the loose guy will chase you down and if the good player has something, you will be charged the maxiumum. i think reverse implied odds say fold. i'm assuming a typical game where a guy will go to the river with any draw, or stay to the showdown with any pair. a bet there is throwing away money.

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Preflop: Loose/terrible limps, I raise with KJo, so-so TAG coldcalls on the button, folded around to limper who calls.

Flop: T74 rainbow. Limper checks, I bet, so-so TAG thinks it over for a few seconds and folds his AQo/55/whatever he's decided is no good anymore, limper calls.

Turn: A of purple horseshoes. Limper checks, I bet, limper folds.

Alternately:

Turn: another 7. Limper checks and I check through. River is a 2, checked through and MHIG vs. limper's J9o.

You get the idea...and that's just with K high. With ace high, even when I'm called on the flop and, against some players, on the turn, my hand is often good vs. the loose/terrible player. And even when it isn't, I can usually win by spiking a pair on the turn or river.

If the tight player calls or raises the flop bet, as I said, I'm out on the turn UI...because I know he's got a better hand than I do.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

with the King Jack offsuit against a random hand you're not very strong with that T-7-4 flop. sure, you MIGHT have the best hand, but if your opponent has so much as a pair, you're a 4-1 underdog. you being unpaired gives a a lowly gutshot 10 outs. i think the bet there is out of line. if he's checking to you, you should probably check along and hope to show it down or catch a pair.

consider the possible holdings for the opponents:

1. a pair [30%] he is 73%
2. a gutshot [20%] he is 38%
3. nothing [15%] he is 23%
4. ace-high [20%] he is 72%
5. a dominatED hand [10%] he is 15%
6. a dominatING hand [5%] he is 85%

now we just multiply the odds to get the chances he'll win at showdown overall: (.219) + (.076) + (.0345) + (.144) + (.015) + (.425) = .9135

multiply that by 100 to get a percentage: 91.35%

if he's loose enough to call to the showdown, given that range, overall he should beat you 91.35% of the time. you're throwing money away!

if you had a pair of Kings or Jacks, you're equity would skyrocket and he wouldn't be close but YOU have NOTHING!

that's an extremely thin value bet and you DON'T want him to call.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

nh, rich

Thanks for the math.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

A lot of responses have moved away from OP's original question. And some of the earlier responses put this question in the correct initial catagory - table selection. Then there is the secondary question of adapting play to a player you respect.

It's nice to say that my game has developed (low stakes game tho it is) that about 1/2 regulars will now table change off of "my" table as soon as possible if they get seated there initially. I won't get off any table for just one opponent. At two "bad" opponents, I question the value of the table and at 3+, gotta go. Within two orbits you should be able to form an initial opinion on your unknowns. I ask myself, do I like this table, or not?

If I am at an otherwise favorable table with one or two good opponents, Harv and Bernie offered sound advice. But Bernie, "funner"????!!! Don't show that to your mother!

Keep small pots small and big multiway pots require different play where the presense of another good player may mean you do not take an available raise but being aware of who you are in the pot with should be most of the battle.

Re: Staying Away from Quality players
 

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Good players: there are many good players I know, but many of them have huge leaks and weaknesses. Figure out what their weaknesses are and take advantage of those. Figure out when they are playing less then optimal.

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Justin, I'm pretty sure you don't know any good players.

Let me expand, I'm talking about "good" players the OP is talking about.

ILP and I talked to you about how the quality of the limit games at motor, and we are easily top 5.

ILP and I are both average to above average passive Tagfish.

I have seen very good LAG/TAGs at the 6max games. I doubt, other than Asian John at motor, that anyone could even break even in the 3-6 short AP games.