FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

Hey all, this is a spot that I seem to struggle with. Blinds /ante 150-300/25. We're at 350ish players left/1400, with 280 being paid. Avg. stack is 6.5k.

The villian in the hand has been pretty aggro, espec over limpers. I elected for this specific play because I didn't really want to play OOP after the flop if it came really ugly.

Any comments would be appreciated, thanks.

Full Tilt Poker Game #1874934996: $35,000 Guarantee (13562411), Table 88 - 150/300 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:53:19 ET - 2007/02/25
Seat 1: Cali4niaRaisin (6,110)
Seat 2: Sexyhotness (4,640)
Seat 3: odaddy48 (3,445)
Seat 4: UnderBet (8,650)
Seat 5: gamblingal1 (4,299)
Seat 6: mlesmes (5,595)
Seat 7: Raven052 (3,385)
Seat 8: jeffnc (5,340)
Seat 9: bearlyhere (3,755)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Cali4niaRaisin [Jh Js]
jeffnc folds
bearlyhere folds
Cali4niaRaisin calls 300
Sexyhotness folds
odaddy48 folds
UnderBet raises to 1,575
gamblingal1 folds
mlesmes folds
Raven052 folds
Cali4niaRaisin raises to 6,085, and is all in (??????)

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

Who tries to stop/go here? Who just raises pre-flop? Does anyone fold if you open for 3.5xBB and villian shove?

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

[ QUOTE ]
The villian in the hand has been pretty aggro, espec over limpers. I elected for this specific play because I didn't really want to play OOP after the flop if it came really ugly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is fine. Stop and go is probably worse, because by pushing you'll just take it down preflop most of the time. With just calling preflop you let him catch-up potentially. His button raise is with wide range, if your read is right.

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

With ur analysis of the player i think u played it very well and in the end u had the courage of ur convictions to make the play. 4 me very good poker.

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

Even with the aggro player behind me, I still like raising to 900 PF. If you were in LP and he was in the blinds, I like the limp a lot more, I think.

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even with the aggro player behind me, I still like raising to 900 PF. If you were in LP and he was in the blinds, I like the limp a lot more, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's actually the opposite. You want to limp more from EP, and raise more from LP. Because in EP you want to limp-RR with monsters and get cheap flops without inflating pots with other hands, and maybe get away with medium-strong hands if there's too much action behind you. In LP, you want to raise a lot to steal blinds with nothing, and therefore you have to raise strong hands as well.

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

Pirate i would usually agree but i think he made the correct play because he obv. knew his player.

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

limping JJ hoping to rr is really threading the needle. I think this will mostly backfire.

- no one raises, and you are playing JJ OOP into 3-4 players

- a non- maniac raises behind you and now you truly don't know where you stand, and of course you are still OOP

JJ is hard enough to play in EP as it is, I think you just made it harder.

With 20BB's, just play this straight forward.

Glad it worked out this time though (?)

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

I have 2 disagree but there u go. The reason he didnt play it straighforward was because he recognised an opening where he had a good situation to trap the big stack, known to be aggressive over limpers. IMO it is good that ppl start 2 play the player more often. If u disagree gr8,cos that makes it interesting and educational.

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

You played this hand absolutely perfectly. Perfect, flawless, and beautiful. I have been advocating this play with 99-JJ for a while now, it is absolutely optimal

20bbs deep I simply love a limp-shove with JJ at an aggro table. Perfectly played hand.

Stop and going is by far the worst possible option. It is so bad that even considering it is a leak. In fact, just by reading the thought of SNGing here I think that I might have just sprung a leak. All that a SNG would do is allow the villain to play perfectly on the flop.

The best hand to stop and go with is KQ, the worst is AA. You want to be pulling the SNG with hands that allow the villain to make the most possible mistakes by folding on the flop

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

Cornell, I'm glad you agree with me. Yes, I think a stop&go would also be bad, I just threw out the idea to generate discussion.

Not to be corny, but my idea for this hand came from a way Doyle played 77 UTG in a WSOP ME a few years back a/g Scott Fischman's AK on the button, exactly the same way. I think given the time of the tourne (approaching bubble), this was a good place for this play because often a limp, or a few limpers, will generate some LP aggression.

Plus, with a standard raise in EP, a tricky player could easily flat-call in LP and we may get outplayed on a funky flop....

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

Okay here's the next part, if you were the villian what would you call hero's shove with? Keep in mind that although hero/villian have not yet played a pot, hero has opened the pot several times in LP and won pots uncontested, he's folded a few times to shoves (re-steals probably?) from the blinds...

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

Here is a hand where I advocated limp raising TT UTG in a WPT event. The hand ended up getting limped around but if I remember correctly there was some decent discussion on limp raising mid pairs 15-20bbs deep. There were definitely good players disagreeing with me but I definitely feel that the limp-shove is optimal here.

TT UTG at WPT Niagra Main Event

In that thread I was pointed to a Sklansky thread discussing the same topic

Sklansky thread on TT UTG with 20bb stacks

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

Interesting discussion, thanks for the link Cornell. This discussion seems to be fizzling out so I'll post the results: villian ended up calling with AKs and hero lost the race. I felt absolutely fine with the shove though. Thank you for your input

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

Does the play change if we know villian is more/less likely to call us with a wider/narrower range? For example, if we know he'll always call with AK then...?

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does the play change if we know villian is more/less likely to call us with a wider/narrower range? For example, if we know he'll always call with AK then...?

[/ QUOTE ]

Still a shove. Being a 57/43 favorite is not a small edge. You want to take that flip every time. Obviously you have no idea that he has AK and not 99, you are still being very results oriented.

You also don't know if he is raising with AK,TT, AT, or JQs. Are you going to let him take the pot away from you every time that that a Q/K/A falls? Are you going to let him off the hook every time he has pocket 88 and instead of stacking him preflop he gets away from his hand for the minimum?

Re: FTP\'s 35k: JJ OOP w/ aggro villians behind....
 

i was the villian in this hand. just saw this thread though. i think i called this didnt i?

pretty sure at this point i'm not raising light.