What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

In a nutshell how bad does someone's life have to be such they would instead choose to be aborted, if that was somehow possible.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

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In a nutshell how bad does someone's life have to be such they would instead choose to be aborted, if that was somehow possible.

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Bad enough for them to commit suicide.

If someone does not commit suicide, then they would rather be alive.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

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In a nutshell how bad does someone's life have to be such they would instead choose to be aborted, if that was somehow possible.

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Bad enough for them to commit suicide.

If someone does not commit suicide, then they would rather be alive.

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That's not sufficient, one of my preferred ways to die is suicide but I don't wish anything like never to have been born.

Tough to see how to answer the op, real toughie.

chez

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

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In a nutshell how bad does someone's life have to be such they would instead choose to be aborted, if that was somehow possible.

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Bad enough for them to commit suicide.

If someone does not commit suicide, then they would rather be alive.

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NO! The fear of death, the fear of hurting others, and the fear of God's wrath will stop many who would have chosen never to be born from killing themselves once they have been born. My question perhaps shouldn't have used the word "abort".

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

This question has too much variation among individuals. Someone might wish they had never been born if they had mountains of debt and no way out. Or if everything in their life had turned out wrong. It depends on your perspective and outlook on life. There can't be any minimum requirements because from another'e viewpoint the reasoning may not seem strong enough. From a personal standpoint I think that if my parents had lost everything from my actions or I had caused their deaths I might wish I had never been born but that is my point of view.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

David,

The answer to your question all depends on another axiom. That is, whether there is or is not an eternal life after this earthly one.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

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David,

The answer to your question all depends on another axiom. That is, whether there is or is not an eternal life after this earthly one.

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Only if we have to also consider possibilities like not being born means being left in torture, or that pigs that don't get eaten are very upset about it.

chez

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

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David,

The answer to your question all depends on another axiom. That is, whether there is or is not an eternal life after this earthly one.

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I suppose the question should be addressed only to those who don't believe there is.

By the way whether there is eternal life, is NOT an axiom question. Axiom questions have no right or wrong answer.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

If you literally dread getting up each day -- where no single day ever brings pleasure or enjoyment to you.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

There is not enough information to answer this question due to the fact that we have no information on life before birth. IF you do believe that you where just nothing, and once you die you will return to nothing then there is no reason to be born at all.

That aside, pain and how bad this or that is all comes down to perspective. One person may see their life as being as bad as is possible while another person would give up their legs to trade lives. Asking axiom questions like this one is stupid.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

what's better than not being born? probably, being born.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

Its hard for those that exist to imagine non-existance. I think many existing people are horrified by it IMO.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

"Not to be born at all is the most to be desired; but having seen the light, the next best is to die as soon as possible" -- Sophocles

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

I think the easy answer is when you have become the opposite of your ideal, and destroyed things you've valued in the process. Without the second part, suicide may be sufficient.

For example, suppose you are a good man and a family man and you become corrupted in order to gain wealth which will further yourself and your family, with the result that your family is killed because of your involvement in corruption.

Better to never have lived?

I think it's a semi-common movie theme btw.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

I think that many people are looking at this question in the wrong way.

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How bad does someone's life have to be such they would instead choose to be aborted

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Note that this is not the same as asking how bad someone's life would be before they committed suicide. If you could go back in time and abort your own fetus, ala The Butterfly Effect, ignoring the temporal paradox, you are not simply killing yourself, but erasing your entire life from history.

For example, a particularly noble person might wish they had been aborted if their life had somehow inflicted a large amount of pain and suffering on others, even if they were perfectly happy with their own life (although obviously they are more likely to feel this way if they also had a sucky life).

On the other hand, somebody who hated their life and wanted to commit suicide might prefer suicide to never having existed if they are proud of some of their past accomplishments or if they feel their life had positively inpacted that of others.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

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In a nutshell how bad does someone's life have to be such they would instead choose to be aborted, if that was somehow possible.

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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038650/

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

It depends...

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

I think the answer to this question is almost entirely contingent upon one's metaphysical assumptions.

If you're a fervent materialist egoist, it seems the clear answer to the question: "in what cases ought someone wish they'd never been born?" is "in those cases where the amount of joy/pleasure experienced by the individual does nto justify the amount of pain/unhappiness".

If you're a materialist utilitarian, wouldn't the answer be something like: "whenever my ocntribution to general (including my own) happiness outweights my contribution to general (including my own) unhappiness".

If you come from a faith tradition, it seems that you should answer this question with: "whenever God would rather that I wasn't born, I should will the same thing". God's wishing someone wasn't born is imaginable to me (although God loved Pol Pot, Pol Pot's existence may have been an unredeemable result of human sin, therefore, if Pol Pot was religious and recognized that God wishes he hadn't been born, Pol Pot in turn would have wished he hadn't been born). Note that this does not mean Pol Pot should then wish himself to die.

As for how religious people can discern whether God wishes that they had been born or not -- it's not really an important question, they were born, so they should instead discern what God wants them to do right now.

There have been interesting cases in the areas of medicine/law in which children whose parents chose to have them in spite of knowing about some horrile condition sued their parents for "wrongful life". I think these cases have been taken quite seriously. Google "wrongful life".

Interesting question.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

...it depends on how much they would pay not to be killed later on. It's kinda similar to the friends-enemy-rating system.

Gay Shower Question-Another Axiom
 

If I knew I was going to have to take the gay shower with Sklansky, I would have chose to be aborted!

Is there really any choice in this instance?

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

I think to wish not having been born, 2 criteria have to be met. 1. The specific person's life situation is such that he/she rather not be living 2. No hope that the life situation will improve.
That negative situation depends on the person.
For example someone that is locked for life in a cave without food, drink and being tortured every hour might be thankful for being born because of a good memory from the past that keeps him happy (good situation), etc, etc, or because he is hopeful that he will get out or looks forward to the time in between beatings.
On the other hand someone who has everything, lives in a mansion with a pool and a hot wife, might wish he was never born because for some reason he might be constantly depressed on prozac and can not find happiness in anything (just because "the way his brain is wired") and has no hope of his situation ever improving.

By "hope of the situation" I mean anything during life or after life.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

correction:

By "hope of the situation improving" I mean anything during life of after life.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

I think I disagree w/ the majority of posts here. I may be over simplifying it, but I believe that a person would simply have to value non-existence over existence in order to wish that they had never been born.

I also think OP's post is a little ambiguous as there are a couple ways this could happen and some people may have different feelings about each. I would prefer to avoid the artificially induced abortion issue because I think wishing that you had been aborted is a different issue than wishing that you had never been born. There actually have been a couple instances where a child was aborted and survived, and I'm pretty sure that no one would wish this. (Link) Also I believe that it may be a deterrent for some people for two reasons. 1) Abortion is viewed by many Christians as wrong and they may not want to cause another person to sin, and 2) It is believed my some (myself included) that some of the procedures used in abortion cause pain to the fetus and they would not wish to experience pain. There is also the possibility of either being conceived and spontaneously aborted very early in the pregnancy, or of never being conceived at all.

I don't think that a person would have to live a life that is specifically horrendous, or that has no hope of improving in order to wish he had never been born. Rather I think they would just have to be living a life that has relatively low value to them when compared with non-existence. Anyone whose pain out weighs his pleasures, or who felt that their live was more of a burden than a blessing, or even anyone who does not value the pleasures and passions of life over the ease of non-existence could wish that they had not been born. Also, I think this would be an incredibly easy choice for religious people who believe in an afterlife, but are not "sure" of where they will go if they die, and believe that all babies automatically go to heaven if they die. (This is related primarily to being conceived, and spontaneously aborted early in the pregnancy.)

I think any apathetic person who simply feels empty and has no purpose, would be justified in wishing that they had never been born.

-- She

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

imagine that when u die, god tells do u want to live ure life all over again( making the same mistakes, etc) or do u want to go into a state of non existence.( if u live ure life all over again once u die u go to the same state of non existence).
The suicide answer is horrible. I could have a hell of a time for my first 60 years, then I dunno I get depressed and kill myself that DOES NOT mean that I wouldnt live my life all over again.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

A quote from the Talmud (Tractate Eruvin 13b):

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For two and a half years the houses of Shammai and Hillel argued.
These say "A person would be better off had he not been created than being created" and these "A person would be better off not being created than being created".
Finally they agreed that "A person would be better off not being created than being created. However, now that he HAS been created he should do good for himself and for others."

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Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

Many cases of suicide, I would imagine, are committed due to a sense of loss of past pleasures (i.e. after a divorce/bankruptcy, etc.). Committing suicide, then, might be an affirmation of the desirability of past life experience.

I personally would wish non-existence only if my existence caused great harm. For example, if I was responsible for the loss of many lives due to my negligence as, say, a pilot, or a nuclear plant safety officer, I might wish that I had never been born.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?
 

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In a nutshell how bad does someone's life have to be such they would instead choose to [never have being born], if that was somehow possible.

[/ QUOTE ]A person who has been abused all his life, from day one onwards, as a slave worker and/or sex object, would prob'ly qualify quite nicely. Total absence of love, warmth and affection in one's already miserable life does the trick. Little good in one's life to hang on to.

BTW, the "better" in your title should read "worse".

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

Nothing is possibly better or worse than not being born. It just is. This is something I'm sure of.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

I think the percentage of lives today that I would take is less than 5%. I dont think my life is that great either, pretty sad that I'm probably in the top 90% atleast.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

Pain, or the absence of joy, seems to be a common idea; but meaning should supercede this.

A life devoid of common pleasures could be compensated for by delivering meaning to others, examples include inspirational and informational (think of Hawking, though I am certain that he'd choose existence).

What's ironic is how many of us lead meaningless lives yet we view pain/suffering as the worse alternative.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

I often tell people that no one asks to be born into this world. I think I say it to kind of cheer someone up or get them to see a minor complaint is just that.

If we do have a choice in being born then clearly a life with even a few moments of happiness is worth years of hell or who would choose to be born.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

Peter Gibbons: So I was sitting in my cubicle today, and I realized, ever since I started working, every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life.
Dr. Swanson: What about today? Is today the worst day of your life?
Peter Gibbons: Yeah.
Dr. Swanson: Wow, that's messed up.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

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In a nutshell how bad does someone's life have to be such they would instead choose to be aborted, if that was somehow possible.

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its less than the number of suicides imo.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

I think that the "thing", "common denominator" or whatever out there determines whether someone prefers not having been born might be related to pain and suffering but it is not essentially it. Because, someone who is in pain and who is suffering, even if it has been all his life might still be thankful for being born especially if there is hope. I think hope might be a pretty strong "common denominator". But I think the essential common denominator is "the specific person's true and honest wish of never having been born" : ) What makes a person feel that way I think is different for everyone and I think we can only give opinions as to what it may be.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

It depends so much on the person. I know people that have one serious illness after another and still find the energy and motivation in their lives to enjoy themselves. I also know people that have a very good life but think everything sucks and get depressed anyways.

Happyness is relative. Therefore the question should be:

How bad should someone feel about their life for him to wish he was not born at all?

I think this is a retorical question.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

the answer is chemical. someones life, from the point of view of success/ friends/ all the good stuff, can be much better than someone elses and yet that someone else may be much happier about his life. this is because the chemicals are different in these 2 peoples heads and thus one is more content with life than the other...

as an example - Kurt Cobain committed suicide at the ripe old age of 23. Do you think he had a bad life?

"Theres nothing on the top but a bucket and a mop and an illustrated book about birds"

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

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In a nutshell how bad does someone's life have to be such they would instead choose to be aborted, if that was somehow possible.

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Bad enough for them to commit suicide.

If someone does not commit suicide, then they would rather be alive.

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NO! The fear of death, the fear of hurting others, and the fear of God's wrath will stop many who would have chosen never to be born from killing themselves once they have been born. My question perhaps shouldn't have used the word "abort".

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Your question perhaps shouldn't be asked.
In Science (like psychology, medecine), the methodology is the most important aspect when we ask a question.
If we ask "wrong", biased question, we absolutely cannot obtain a good answer.
There are some questions that are "wrong", and that we cannot answer, methodologically speaking.

Any thoughts?

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

As bad as mine. Kind of funny I searched a good part of last night for a thread like this on the mental health boards, then as soon as I come to a poker forum to educate myself about money management low and behold, a suicide thread.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

By the way David you were on the money with the quote concerning some of the reasons people who have virtually given up on life would feel compelled to go on nonetheless.

Personally I have absolutely no fear of death and not a whole lot of concern about hurting anyone else at this point... but that whole "wrath of God" thing is a tough one to get past.

Re: What\'s Better Than Not Being Born?- Another Axiom Queston
 

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In a nutshell how bad does someone's life have to be such they would instead choose to be aborted, if that was somehow possible.

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This bad!

Assuming that the foetus could decide, Bhaggavat Gita is the book which could give him the wisdom and courage to happily choose the most unhappy life if opposed to non-existence.