Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070225/...O7Sg8jOnqs0NUE

Why has it become so politically correct and almost expected for people in public office to try to act as if slavery is something that we, in the 21st century somehow need to apologize for, as if we had anything to do with it?

And furthermore; I will submit to you that slavery, for all its evil, was a very good thing for America, and for black people in the long run..... and before you jump on me for making such an "ignorant, racist" statement, hear me out, because my point is hardly a racist one...

There's one fact that people who live by the dogma of political correctness seem to be ignoring here; without slavery there are NO black people in America.... and who wouldn't agree (besides a true racist) that such a thing would be to the detriment of our country?

Had slavery never happened there would be no Martin Luther King Jr. No Mohhammed Ali, no Hariet Tubman, no Jazz, no Rock n, roll... the NFL and NBA would be really lame, and there would be no peanut butter (and I really like peanut butter) America has allowed people of African dissent the opportunity to thrive, and they have changed the very fabric of our society and culture in so many ways that it's hard to imagine what our country would be like if it was lilly white

So Why then, are we apologizing for slavery? Shouldn't we be appreciating it for all the wonderful things its done for our country, and for the Africans that were brought here?

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

wildly making counterfactual claims just makes you seem like an idiot.

if there were no slavery you have almost no idea what would have happened. ie there is no way you can claim that peanut butter would NEVER be invented for obvious reasons. it may well have been invented earlier if there were no slavery. there is absolutely no way to know.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

Arguing that our country would be better/worse without black people seems like an impossible argument.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

Wait..... so who sounds like the idiot??? I'm making the argument here that having black people in this country(which is a DIRECT result of slavery) has ultimately had a positive effect on our culture.... and your argument is THAT PEANUT BUTTER MAY IN FACT HAVE BEEN INVENTED SOONER!? Please explain to me what is counter-factual in my post?

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

Virginia didn't apologize for slavery, it expressed "profound regret". The exact wording of the resolution was a big issue, with many taking the position that those alive today had nothing to apologize for (one delegate said it would be like asking the Jews to apologize for killing Jesus). Also, it's ridiculous to think there would be no black people, as there would still have been immigration. There was never Asian slavery, yet Asian people have found their way over to the U.S..

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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Wait..... so who sounds like the idiot??? I'm making the argument here that having black people in this country(which is a DIRECT result of slavery) has ultimately had a positive effect on our culture.... and your argument is THAT PEANUT BUTTER MAY IN FACT HAVE BEEN INVENTED SOONER!? Please explain to me what is counter-factual in my post?

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peanut butter is an example, it wasn't an argument. please read a little more carefully.

my claim is that you can't argue counterfactuals.

"I'm making the argument here that having black people in this country(which is a DIRECT result of slavery) has ultimately had a positive effect on our culture."

this argument is based on complete nonsense. if there was no slavery you can't say what would have happened to this country. you can't even make claims as to the demographics that this country would have. you can't take one element out of a causal chain then extrapolate based on that when you are dealing with such a complex system.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

Yes, you are right about the wording of the resolution, but to me its just semantics really.... what is difference in expressing "profound regret" and apologizing anyway? It seems the same to me... as to non-slave immigrants, you're absolutely right, and I'm not saying that I believe there would be no black people in the country without the slavery of our nations first centuries.... but I highly doubt there numbers would be anything near the 12% of our population that they make up now, and chances are, they wouldn't have arrived nearly so early in our countries history, and had a chance to affect our history in such a profound way as they have.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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There's one fact that people who live by the dogma of political correctness seem to be ignoring here; without slavery there are NO black people in America.... and who wouldn't agree (besides a true racist) that such a thing would be to the detriment of our country?

Had slavery never happened there would be no Martin Luther King Jr. No Mohhammed Ali, no Hariet Tubman, no Jazz, no Rock n, roll... the NFL and NBA would be really lame, and there would be no peanut butter (and I really like peanut butter) America has allowed people of African dissent the opportunity to thrive, and they have changed the very fabric of our society and culture in so many ways that it's hard to imagine what our country would be like if it was lilly white


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You could drive a bus through the gaping logical holes in that argument.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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this argument is based on complete nonsense. if there was no slavery you can't say what would have happened to this country. you can't even make claims as to the demographics that this country would have. you can't take one element out of a causal chain then extrapolate based on that when you are dealing with such a complex system.

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If you'll read my article again, you'll see that I'm not speculating what WOULD HAVE happened had slavery never happened... I'm arguing what, and who, WOULD NOT have happened. You, and some other posters are attacking my speculation from the opinion that have no proof, and it amazes me how completely you miss the point... specualting how different the world might be, had certain events in history not happened, or happened differently (which they easily might have) is not a matter of proof, its a matter of imagination.... and some of you people obviously are lacking in that department.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

It's not hard to "profoundly regret" that the US had anything to do with slavery. At what point in the future will we as a society no longer be paying dearly for it?

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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my claim is that you can't argue counterfactuals.

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I can argue whatever the hell I want.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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And furthermore; I will submit to you that slavery, for all its evil, was a very good thing for America, and for black people in the long run.....

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The standard of living for blacks in America VS blacks in Africa is at least 2 orders of magnitude higher today. I have a feeling that in some respects and some cohorts blacks in America were better off than African blacks even during slavery.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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If you'll read my article again, you'll see that I'm not speculating what WOULD HAVE happened had slavery never happened... I'm arguing what, and who, WOULD NOT have happened. You, and some other posters are attacking my speculation from the opinion that have no proof, and it amazes me how completely you miss the point... specualting how different the world might be, had certain events in history not happened, or happened differently (which they easily might have) is not a matter of proof, its a matter of imagination.... and some of you people obviously are lacking in that department.

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there is the suppressed argument that if MLK, Ali, the inventor of peanut butter, hadn't existed, the world would be worse off.

there may have been much much more successful civil rights activists and boxers had there been no slavery. you just don't know.

you are saying theses events wouldn't have happened, and therefore, we would be worse off.


i am just saying you are trying to compare to two universes. this universe. and the universe where slavery was abolished when the country was founded. you have no idea what that latter universe is like. so you can't make comparisons.

maybe you can conclude that the second universe has no MLK, but it could have a superior MLK substitute. or maybe there were no world wars in the second universe. maybe there was no great depression in the second universe. maybe cancer and AIDS has been cured in the second universe.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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And furthermore; I will submit to you that slavery, for all its evil, was a very good thing for America, and for black people in the long run.....

[/ QUOTE ]

The standard of living for blacks in America VS blacks in Africa is at least 2 orders of magnitude higher today. I have a feeling that in some respects and some cohorts blacks in America were better off than African blacks even during slavery.

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But the situation in Africa is in large part created by the slave trade, and then exacerbated by colonialism - justified in large part by the sub-human view of Africans. Perpetuated by, of course, slavery.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

Virginia played a big part in the slave trade in this country. They manned up and apologized for their indiscretions. Let's hope other states follow suit.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070225/...O7Sg8jOnqs0NUE

Why has it become so politically correct and almost expected for people in public office to try to act as if slavery is something that we, in the 21st century somehow need to apologize for, as if we had anything to do with it?

And furthermore; I will submit to you that slavery, for all its evil, was a very good thing for America, and for black people in the long run..... and before you jump on me for making such an "ignorant, racist" statement, hear me out, because my point is hardly a racist one...

There's one fact that people who live by the dogma of political correctness seem to be ignoring here; without slavery there are NO black people in America.... and who wouldn't agree (besides a true racist) that such a thing would be to the detriment of our country?

Had slavery never happened there would be no Martin Luther King Jr. No Mohhammed Ali, no Hariet Tubman, no Jazz, no Rock n, roll... the NFL and NBA would be really lame, and there would be no peanut butter (and I really like peanut butter) America has allowed people of African dissent the opportunity to thrive, and they have changed the very fabric of our society and culture in so many ways that it's hard to imagine what our country would be like if it was lilly white

So Why then, are we apologizing for slavery? Shouldn't we be appreciating it for all the wonderful things its done for our country, and for the Africans that were brought here?

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You're one sick bastard. You do realize that millions and millions of people were brutally held in servitude, killed, beaten, raped, humiliated, etc., for two hundred years, right? If you just decided that, overall, slavery had had a positive impact, that would be pretty sick. But you're actually claiming there's nothing to express regret for? That's disgusting.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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if there were no slavery you have almost no idea what would have happened. ie there is no way you can claim that peanut butter would NEVER be invented for obvious reasons. it may well have been invented earlier if there were no slavery. there is absolutely no way to know.


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Not to hijack this thread, but your reasoning is spot-on and perfectly contradicts those who argue that without govt funding we'd never have the benefit of technology X that was funded by govt.

natedogg

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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without slavery there are NO black people in America

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Yes, because history has shown that America isn't a place that has taken in millions of immigrants. I can't imagine a way that Africans could have gotten into America without first forcibly bringing them over and enslaving them for generations.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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And furthermore; I will submit to you that slavery, for all its evil, was a very good thing for America, and for black people in the long run.....

[/ QUOTE ]

The standard of living for blacks in America VS blacks in Africa is at least 2 orders of magnitude higher today. I have a feeling that in some respects and some cohorts blacks in America were better off than African blacks even during slavery.

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But the situation in Africa is in large part created by the slave trade, and then exacerbated by colonialism - justified in large part by the sub-human view of Africans. Perpetuated by, of course, slavery.

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No. This is the guilty white apologist view and it is feel good fantasy.

Africa lacks economic freedom and the means to implement same. And it likely always will.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

To express regret of slavery this many years later is rediculous. It would be more appropriate to express regret of more recent racist policies that some of them may actually have contributed to.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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You're one sick bastard. You do realize that millions and millions of people were brutally held in servitude, killed, beaten, raped, humiliated, etc., for two hundred years, right? If you just decided that, overall, slavery had had a positive impact, that would be pretty sick. But you're actually claiming there's nothing to express regret for? That's disgusting.

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Um no..... I don't have to express regret or apologize for slavery, because I didn't have anything to do with it... and neither did my elected representatives.... And to make the argument that something good can't come from an evil act, or that an evil institution once abolished can't lead to positive results of such a magnitude that they far exceed the evil that precipitated them is absurd.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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To express regret of slavery this many years later is rediculous. It would be more appropriate to express regret of more recent racist policies that some of them may actually have contributed to.

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I agree completely--slave owners and their immediate relatives are all deceased. The reminiscences of slavery remain to this day and that's what the apology should be about.

If someone agrees to reparations, I am leaving this country (or at least the state that this actually takes place).

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

Yes, and if reparations ever happen, I will petition the Italian government for some, I'm sure the Romans enslaved some of my ancestors.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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to make the argument that something good can't come from an evil act, or that an evil institution once abolished can't lead to positive results of such a magnitude that they far exceed the evil that precipitated them is absurd.


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He's not saying that. He's saying that you basically claiming that slavery has been +EV for black people is a ridiculous, ignorant, disgusting, and perhaps most importantly a false statement.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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I agree completely--slave owners and their immediate relatives are all deceased.

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This is true, but there certainly are families today that are better off because of slavery practised by their ancestors, no? And certainly there are black people who are worse off because they're families were enslaved for generations, no?

Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely against government mandated or government paid reparations, but if someone was born into a wealthy family that was wealthy because of slavery and wants to help correect that wrong by giving some money to an African-American cause, what's the beef?

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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I agree completely--slave owners and their immediate relatives are all deceased.

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This is true, but there certainly are families today that are better off because of slavery practised by their ancestors, no? And certainly there are black people who are worse off because they're families were enslaved for generations, no?

Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely against government mandated or government paid reparations, but if someone was born into a wealthy family that was wealthy because of slavery and wants to help correect that wrong by giving some money to an African-American cause, what's the beef?

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How far back in history are you will to take this point? Are there Spanish that are better off after basically destroying flourishing civilizations in Central and South America? Are there 'regular' not slave holding Americans who are better off because they stole land from the Native Americans? Are there Greeks (or Spartans) that are better off because they defeated Xerxes?

I understand your point, but you cannot hold people captive for what their relatives have done in the past, especially if the wrongdoers (silly word) are long since deceased. In theory, the former Confederate States can blame the former Union states on how bad the Reconstruction was after the Civil war and pursue their own actions (and there were Northerners that profited from this). When does this end?

Let's correct the problems we have at hand now and move on. History is history--we can heed the lessons of it, but we can't do anything to change it.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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There was never Asian slavery, yet Asian people have found their way over to the U.S..

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There were slaves of ALL races, including white. The black slaves were simply a lot easier to get and therefore overwhelmingly more common. Raiding say England or China for slaves was a tad more difficult than getting one African tribe to raid another and sell to you.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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You're one sick bastard. You do realize that millions and millions of people were brutally held in servitude, killed, beaten, raped, humiliated, etc., for two hundred years, right? If you just decided that, overall, slavery had had a positive impact, that would be pretty sick. But you're actually claiming there's nothing to express regret for? That's disgusting.

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Um no..... I don't have to express regret or apologize for slavery, because I didn't have anything to do with it... and neither did my elected representatives.... And to make the argument that something good can't come from an evil act, or that an evil institution once abolished can't lead to positive results of such a magnitude that they far exceed the evil that precipitated them is absurd.

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Good for you. I don't feel personally guilty or responsible for slavery either. That's not what I objected to in your post. The disgusting thing you said was "Shouldn't we be appreciating [slavery] for all the wonderful things its done for our country, and for the Africans that were brought here?"

First of all, the assertion that the world is better with slavery than without it is pretty ridiculous. Sure, millions of slaves were brutalized for their entire lives, etc., but hey, we have jazz! Riiight... Second, even if that assertion is true, that doesn't make slavery any less evil.

And even if you are blameless, the state of Virginia certainly is not. Besides being at the forefront of promoting the institution of slavery while it existed, it also, within living memory, promoted racist policies designed to perpetuate the inferior economic status of ex-slaves. And to make it even more reasonable, they're not even apologizing, they're expressing regret.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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How far back in history are you will to take this point? Are there Spanish that are better off after basically destroying flourishing civilizations in Central and South America? Are there 'regular' not slave holding Americans who are better off because they stole land from the Native Americans? Are there Greeks (or Spartans) that are better off because they defeated Xerxes?


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It's all a matter of degree. All of the examples are apt, it's just that the farther back in goes the less impact it would have (and with some it is very very very miniscule but in theory there is an impact).
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but you cannot hold people captive for what their relatives have done in the past,

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That's why I'm not advocating holding anyone captive for it. However to say that some haven't benefitted from wrong actions of their relatives to the detriment of others is incorrect, and I'd understand if someone wanted to try to make up for those wrongs.
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In theory, the former Confederate States can blame the former Union states on how bad the Reconstruction was after the Civil war and pursue their own actions (and there were Northerners that profited from this).

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You'd be correct.
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Let's correct the problems we have at hand now and move on. History is history--we can heed the lessons of it, but we can't do anything to change it.

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You're right, we can't change it, but I just don't see what's wrong with someone giving to others to help another's bad situation.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

I'm waiting for your followup argument that the Holocaust helped resolve population issues in Europe, thus benefitting numerous countries.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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I'm waiting for your followup argument that the Holocaust helped resolve population issues in Europe, thus benefitting numerous countries.

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It may have benefited the Jews that survived by getting sympathy and creating Israel.

I doubt anyone would say the ends justify the means.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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I'm waiting for your followup argument that the Holocaust helped resolve population issues in Europe, thus benefitting numerous countries.

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It may have benefited the Jews that survived by getting sympathy and creating Israel.

I doubt anyone would say the ends justify the means.

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Sure, let's open up another can of worms. How about the Palestinians that lost their land--can they blame the first wave of jews that came over, the Germans and those related to the Nazi's, the UN or any other group/country related to this whole thing?

Where and when does it end?

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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I'm waiting for your followup argument that the Holocaust helped resolve population issues in Europe, thus benefitting numerous countries.

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It may have benefited the Jews that survived by getting sympathy and creating Israel.

I doubt anyone would say the ends justify the means.

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Sure, let's open up another can of worms. How about the Palestinians that lost their land--can they blame the first wave of jews that came over, the Germans and those related to the Nazi's, the UN or any other group/country related to this whole thing?

Where and when does it end?

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A lot of horrible horrible things have good consequences. This does not mean the ends justify the means. That is the entire point of the post.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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Had slavery never happened there would be no Martin Luther King Jr.

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Or MLK could have used his genius in a different way and benefitted society to an even greater extent...who knows?

You know, without the holocaust the Jews wouldn't have Israel either...They really are better off. We wouldn't have had Oscar Schindler, or for that matter Schindler's List. Adrian Brody and Roberto Benigni wouldn't have Oscars...certainly they are better off because of the holocaust.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

Well I think apologizing for slavery really has no point. It is a meaningless gesture. As far as reparations go, I personally have mixed feelings. I think individual payments to African Americans would be a terrible idea for many reasons, but I for one think that not enough has been done to really make an effort to combat the problems caused by slavery and subsequent segregation and mistreatment of blacks.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

If you don't think that cultural and economic differences between whites and blacks in this country can be traced, at least partially, to the lingering effects of slavery and subsequent racist policies, you're either ignorant or an idiot.

(And I use 'you' in the general sense here, I am using quick reply so it's not directed at any poster in particular.)

Now, the question of what, if anything, should be done, or whether there is equality of opportunity today, is very different. But to suggest that segregation and Jim Crow are not still relevant, when many of the people holding elective office today were alive to see it or, in a few rare cases, participated in the process, is absolutely absurd. There is no other word for it. Absurd. Society doesn't completely change overnight, or even over a generation.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

had slavery never happened martin luther king would have not been shot dead. he had a family.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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I for one think that not enough has been done to really make an effort to combat the problems caused by slavery and subsequent segregation and mistreatment of blacks.

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Then you should be getting out there and doing more.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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Virginia played a big part in the slave trade in this country. They manned up and apologized for their indiscretions. Let's hope other states follow suit.

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"Virginia" didn't play any part in the slave trade. People did. Those people are dead. The people that are living today did not play any part in it. The people who apologized apologized for someone else's actions.

Re: Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?
 

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Virginia played a big part in the slave trade in this country. They manned up and apologized for their indiscretions. Let's hope other states follow suit.

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"Virginia" didn't play any part in the slave trade. People did. Those people are dead. The people that are living today did not play any part in it. The people who apologized apologized for someone else's actions.

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Umm.... no. Virginia played a part in the slave trade by using state money to help enforce slavery. (ie if a slave ran away you could call the police to get him/her back)