Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

I have been working on a poker database for full tilt hand history for a short time now, and I am familiar with the pay software PokerTracker. I am wondering why you guys, some with programming experience choose a program that you must pay for to do the simple action of converting flat text files into a working database. All the tools that it uses are free, for instance postgreSQL, so why hasn't someone written a parser, it is a fairly simple thing to write, and I would get started on writing an open-source one, but I am still trying to learn the best way to store data that is this complex. If any of you who have paid for the software would like to contribute it would be a huge help for me to just see some sample data of a couple hands so I can make my database somewhat compatible using PT for the base, and adding all the features that I think are necessary.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

It isn't always worth it to re-code a working program. The time you are spending programing has a value, so even though you will not have to pay for the program, there is still a cost. PT Pat is also gives very good support for when parts of the program break because a change made by the poker site.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

I understand that, and I have also seen the PT forums, so I can tell they help their users, but as for the program breaking.. I am just trying to write a parser, how often do you really think the hand history format changes? I havn't seen it change yet, at least on FTP.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that, and I have also seen the PT forums, so I can tell they help their users, but as for the program breaking.. I am just trying to write a parser, how often do you really think the hand history format changes? I havn't seen it change yet, at least on FTP.

[/ QUOTE ]

the hand histories changed like 2-3mo ago as far as i can remember on FTP.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

It's like $50. People would rather be playing poker than coding their own software.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

Just another $50 I could be playing with...

Just my 2 cents tho

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

What's a parsar?

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

Parsing text just means mangling the text into another format, in this case specifically just a text file in the right format to just COPY to an SQL DB.

Anyone want to contribute in the spirit of actually being able to get into the software and see how it works? Or are you all on the PT side and don't want to do anything that would mess with their income?

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just another $50 I could be playing with...

Just my 2 cents tho

[/ QUOTE ]

OK so how much do you get paid per hour in your real job? How many hours would it take to write something (at least) as good as PT?

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

I'm a student, I am going to write it either way for both experience and I need one that I have the source to so that I can use it with other things I am working on.

I guess I can count you guys out for a copy of the software when it is done, anyone who actually is interested in this, please feel free to either respond or PM.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

I say go for it; however, do it for the experience and make sure you realize what you are committing yourself to.

I have spent the last few weeks working on Poker Grapher, to update it to support PostgreSQL 8.2.x. No new features, just fixing what was broke. I actually use the graphing features built in to Poker Tracker, but I thought I could contribute to the community and some people where asking for it, so I decided to do it.

In the last few weeks I have played almost no poker. I have been debugging old code, writing new code, answering support requests, etc. I have had no time to play poker. And I've spent almost every evening after work, working on Poker Grapher. So TheIrishThug, Mark1978 and Dean all have a point. But, I am enjoying myself. And I think I'm helping some people out. So to me, it's worth it.

Now that said, if you are going to be writing code for other people, then please be prepared to help them out when they have issues. And they will. Some poker players are computer wizards, but most are not. Some can barely turn on their PC. All of them will need support. No two systems are the same and the fact that it works on your system doesn't help them at all. And there is nothing more annoying to all of us than someone that releases a program and then provides crappy support. Or worse yet, no support. So if you want people to trust you and use your software, then you better be prepared to support your program. PT Pat & PokerAce Josh have set a pretty high bar for all of us to live up to, when it comes to the support poker players are used to getting.

Open Source? Fantastic. I'm all for that. Poker Grapher was open-sourced by the original author VERN and it remains so today. So I encourage you to do the same with your software.

Speaking of Poker Grapher, feel free to incorporate anything you want from Poker Grapher (as long as you follow the BSD License). The source code is freely available for all to see & use. Use the link above to find the project on SourceForge.

Sorry for such a long response, but I felt you needed a little perspective. I hope you take this post in the spirit in which it was intended.

Good luck!

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

Cudjoebill, I appreciate your input very much.

You make a lot of good points, although the whole bit about support is a little different than I see it, considering that I want this to be open-source I was not planning on providing any support, as I would obviously not be charging for use of the software (open source software carries no warranties, implied or otherwise etc etc etc.)

I am doing this to learn more about the game, and also to try to implement in my experimental AI software to see if an AI program can make useful improvements based on the knowledge of the opponents tendencies.

I am not calling this a 'bot' so please don't assume that, and even if the framework resembles one it is obvious that for one this complicated it would be years off. I simply want to be able to 'teach' the AI to make decisions, and explain those decisions so that I can keep updating my own strategies accordingly.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's like $50. People would rather be playing poker than coding their own software.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. My time is worth more than this.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

Again, thanks for the input and i am glad you value your time so much.

Maybe I should have been more clear.

I now have a working copy of PT, this is not about the money.

If anyone WITH PROGRAMMING EXPERIENCE wants to get involved feel free to PM me. Anyone else, as much as I value your opinion it is unfortunately irrelevant to this post. Not trying to be a d*ck, just trying to keep from wasting time. It surprises me that people will post on here just to say there time is worth more than to get involved in a programming project, just obviously not worth enough to keep you from posting one line answers on forums.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It surprises me that people will post on here just to say there time is worth more than to get involved in a programming project, just obviously not worth enough to keep you from posting one line answers on forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Good luck with your project. An open-source poker DB would be great.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's like $50. People would rather be playing poker than coding their own software.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. My time is worth more than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

omgopportunitycost!

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

You can get a demo version of pokertracker for free if you want to use it for ideas for your own software. There are many features that people would like in PT that you could implement in your software (there have been some threads on this subject which may be useful to you).
I wasn't trying to be a dick. I was just answering the question you asked in the title of your thread. If the intention of the post was to find coding partners then just say so.
It would be great to get an open-source database project up and running. Many people get started then they just disappear.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

Of course if he put in say 10 hours it would save EVERYONE $50, not just him... which is pretty cool (unless your poker tracker).

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

OP, are you one of those people who spends 5 hours looking for coupons so they can save $0.60?

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

Mark1798: I'm sorry, I really did appreciate your input (and especially your second response), I meant that I was just a little irritated because people were repeating the idea in various tones and I didn't want my post to make me look like a dick, I was just upset that people are complaining about how I am wasting my time coding something that would benefit them (or not if they bought PT) but its no problem to hop in here and one line the same thing that we have heard, great the majority of Mr. Joe Pokers out there would much rather pay $50 than spend time even figuring out my open source program, thats fine with me, and it is why I doubt the PT guys would have a problem with me.

Also, I'm sorry I didn't just come out and say i was looking for interested programmers, I kind of thought I had implied it, but I am not expecting it. I do not claim to be extremely skilled, but I am a CS major almost done with my AS so if this seems like the type of project you are interested in, it would be great to have some collaboration. This is an open invitation to anyone who believed that have something to contribute and I thank everyone for taking the time to read this and also anyone who takes the time to meaningfully reply.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

Also, I forgot to mention...

PT Doesn't do razz, and that is a major major part of this.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course if he put in say 10 hours it would save EVERYONE $50, not just him... which is pretty cool (unless your poker tracker).

[/ QUOTE ]
To make a better PokerTracker would take a skilled coder 100-200x that long. And a team of coders far longer (in total hours).

Even using a highly productive language like c#, you'd need at least 25,000 lines of code, and a crapload of time in debugging and testing (more than most programs).

The PokerTracker add on I created for my personal/friends' use (which does everything you could possibly want, and then some) is 19,000 lines of original c# code - and I'm using third party dlls for graphing and postgres database access. I shudder to think what it would take to write a PokerTracker clone, with all its features, and deal with backwards compatibility issues for all the variants of hand histories while maintaining perfect accuracy. Which is the standard that most current users will demand.

Sure, it's trivial to write regex parsers for 10 sites, stick some results in a database and display them. But as the system grows larger and more complex, you need to a deal with a crapload of speed issues, design issues, conflicts, the hassles of multithreading, random bugs, GUI issues (more complex than you might think if you want to make quality product), and so on. Your code will grow hairs and easy things will become hard. And those annoyingly complex/tedius/difficult to code extra items that your product HAS to have (i.e. reading hand histories from email, autorating, bulletproof note export) will bog you down and turn your easy parsing & database job into a nightmare.

But I wish you luck.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I forgot to mention...

PT Doesn't do razz, and that is a major major part of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

PT stud supports Razz.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a student,

[/ QUOTE ]

This explains everything. Once you get some experience with real life software development, you'll see why people are willing to pay for software rather than writing it themselves.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

Phil153 pretty much nailed it - anyone with real world software experience knows how much work even the simplest of programs becomes once other people start using it.

TourneyManager is a much smaller project than Poker Tracker and it took a good 200 hours of work before it was released and another 200+ since then in updates, obscure bug fixes, dealing with site hand history changes and support and that's in a highly productive language like C# and 14 years of experience...

If your original post was something like: "I want to make an open source poker manager like Poker Tracker. Any developers out there want to take part?" then the responses would be a lot different.

Good luck with it though,

rvg

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

I started almost similar disgussion on our national poker board this weekend and got just almost same answers like you have get here. I also wanted to start coding FREE poker software supporting few sites first, but got "crushed" comments like: yea yea, you are wannabee coder etc. even when I told that I was not gonna code it to my self, but our company employee (quite skilled vb programmer) with assistant other coders, if enough ppl and coders joins to project.

What is it ppl make say comments like that is what I dont understand. Look little bit around and stop stearing your own stomach, let others code for FREE and take you money from it, if you want or pay software like PT or PO. There is much great and big softwares for available for free, why not then also good or at least free poker tools? Enough coders who love the idea and BAM, there it is, killer software. Look at Linux, Firefox, GIMP, many virus softwares etc.

And its not money question for me, I have PO purchased. Im just kind person who thinks also others, but maybe the time was not right... Also im not 100% satisfied with PO, great software, but few important features is missing.

I hope that you wont stop coding just because you got negative feedback. Good luck to your project!

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a student,

[/ QUOTE ]

This explains everything. Once you get some experience with real life software development, you'll see why people are willing to pay for software rather than writing it themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems you don't know enough about 'real life' software development, because if your views made any sense you would be able to back them up by the failure of the open source movement which is, to say the least... simply not failing.

Maybe I should write it just for myself and any collaborators since it seems to be in the spirit of poker that everyone should have to pay, forget the generosity and positives of open sourcing the code. Actually, I could do that, and I would be limited to what I could personally implement. Poker tracker is limited by a team of developers, that also will undoubtedly not be around forever to support paying customers and changes. If this type of thing was open and learned by even a few people, the software would be able to continue to thrive. I am done trying to explain this to you guys, maybe one of the supporters could point me in the direction of a software forum that has a poker discussion where people will just mind their own business if they find a project a waste of time? I'm pretty sure I could find a thousand projects online that I would consider less than worthwhile, should I have a problem with them being developed? Should I be writing in to the authors critically second guessing their desire to learn through coding? You must be real involved with software development, sounds like a very 'Microsoft' way of thinking, what do you have against open source? Many of the things you take for granted on today's internet would not be possible if not for the work of volunteer programmers.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a student,

[/ QUOTE ]

This explains everything. Once you get some experience with real life software development, you'll see why people are willing to pay for software rather than writing it themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems you don't know enough about 'real life' software development, because if your views made any sense you would be able to back them up by the failure of the open source movement which is, to say the least... simply not failing.

Maybe I should write it just for myself and any collaborators since it seems to be in the spirit of poker that everyone should have to pay, forget the generosity and positives of open sourcing the code. Actually, I could do that, and I would be limited to what I could personally implement. Poker tracker is limited by a team of developers, that also will undoubtedly not be around forever to support paying customers and changes. If this type of thing was open and learned by even a few people, the software would be able to continue to thrive. I am done trying to explain this to you guys, maybe one of the supporters could point me in the direction of a software forum that has a poker discussion where people will just mind their own business if they find a project a waste of time? I'm pretty sure I could find a thousand projects online that I would consider less than worthwhile, should I have a problem with them being developed? Should I be writing in to the authors critically second guessing their desire to learn through coding? You must be real involved with software development, sounds like a very 'Microsoft' way of thinking, what do you have against open source? Many of the things you take for granted on today's internet would not be possible if not for the work of volunteer programmers.

[/ QUOTE ]
Whats with all the hostility here? The software forum is usually pretty chilled out so lets try and keep it that way! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I think half the problem is that as soon as anybody tries to point out the flaws in PT then everybody jumps in and starts trying to praise PT: Yes PT might have good support, but if the guy who wrote it has made > $500k from it then I'd expect nothing less tbo (the $500k figure comes from somebody's estimate taken from the number of registered 2+2ers and the number of registered users in the PT forums - it could be MUCH more...).

PT basically has no real competition, and I don't think anybody can deny that monopolies lead to stagnation: why bother improving anything if you can just sit back and print off the $'s with the same old thing year in year out?

I'm first to agree that something much better (and significantly faster) than PT could be created and open sourcing it seems an obvious way to encourage others to participate.

There are lots of people here who go out of their way to help others and to also provide free software/scripts for players to use and I'm sure if you create the framework you are talking about then others here will contribute what they can. Sadly, I'm not all that hopeful as there seems to be have been so many dead PT-clone projects already which haven't really made it past the planning stage.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

I bought PokerTracker when it first came out a few years ago. At first, I thought that was expensive, but boy was i wrong. PT has done WONDERs for me. I would not play w/o it. I'd be willing to pay up to a few hundred just for it. The software ($50) was paid for within a few months; since I started at low stakes.

Also, the support and committment of PT Pat is top notch quality.

P.S. CB is the man as well.. Poker graphher is awesome [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

Juk,
I am sorry, I am trying not to be hostile, I just thought I had politely asked people with nothing encouraging to say to just use their powers of choice and choose another thread to participate in. It just annoys me to hear someone say that in 'real life software development' so and so happen and no one redoes any work at all.. .well thats part true I happen to know most programmers, like me, would rather not reinvent the wheel, but if the wheel isn't open-source your not really reinventing it, your inventing an open version of it that can be used with other projects.

Honestly I have been more discouraged by the fact that I could spend all this time on something, and then have people get on my case because I might take a chunk out of PT's millions (that number made me sick as well, this is a simple statistic program... there are many huge contributors to the Linux OS that made all of that work a possibility, that are struggling to make ends meet, they also will humbly state that the maturing of linux was more important than a mansion for their small family.) I know that among poker players this is a hard concept to grasp, and I should not bother hoping that the open source sentiment will be shared here because for the most part the average jow here doesn't even care what open source has done for the internet, and software in general... he paid for his version of windows, plays online poker and wonders what the hell open source ever did for him. I on the other hand have been involved with the open source movement and Linux basically since I was old enough to understand how to format a 'useless' windows hard drive and install Linux so I cannot ignore it in this fashion. Again Juk I really do appreciate your input and I am sorry for the hostility, it was surely not aimed at you.

For any other poker enthusiasts who have any form of software development or even just some simple programming experience please take a minute to send me a quick PM. I am looking to create a type of sourceforge for poker related projects, complete with forums and other various extras to make useful collaboration on poker projects slightly less painful, and hopefully move us into a new level of understanding of both the game, and our craft.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

Warrior,

No one here is knocking open source. Most people in this thread are aware of Linux/Unix, how it began, and how important it was for software development. I think the open source movement is a great idea. And I definitely have no desire to help some random internet vendor make another half a mil.

The "negativity" in this thread started because of comments like this:

[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering why you guys, some with programming experience choose a program that you must pay for to do the simple action of converting flat text files into a working database.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a tiny fraction of the programming work required to create a PokerTracker clone. The fact that you trivialize the program suggests to those who have written working, real world software that you aren't aware of the amount of effort and commitment required to do a project of this size. Comments like this:

[ QUOTE ]
If any of you who have paid for the software would like to contribute it would be a huge help for me to just see some sample data of a couple hands so I can make my database somewhat compatible using PT for the base, and adding all the features that I think are necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]
further indicate a lack of seriousness or competence. Who begins a serious attempt at cloning a commercial product without even having examined the product in question??

If you'd come in here and said: "Hi guys, it sucks that we have to pay for Pokertracker, I'd like to start working on an open source version. I know it's a huge job but I'm willing to help code and coordinate things and if we can get some programmers behind this, it'd be great", I guarantee you'd have very different responses.

For what it's worth, there was a hand parsing project begun by bachfan about 6 months ago, a very competent coder. Basically, a lot of people write hand parsers for their custom code, which has to be updated every time a site changes. From what I understand it's set up on sourceforge, but never went beyond the design phase. If you're serious about creating an open source pokertracker and getting community support, perhaps reviving this is a good place to start?

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

Phil, the entire post was directed towards the group that would be browsing the software forum, I didn't realize at first how many people not involved in coding read this. I apologize if I was unclear, but you have jumped to a lot of conclusions, and I obviously think your a dick, even though you couldn't have realize when you called me incompetent that I had only access to the trial version and I had hoped that the way things were stored with postgreSQL would be a little different and also easier for me to work with since I know postgres at least better than I know the Jet DB or whatever the trial version uses.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a student,

[/ QUOTE ]

This explains everything. Once you get some experience with real life software development, you'll see why people are willing to pay for software rather than writing it themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems you don't know enough about 'real life' software development, because if your views made any sense you would be able to back them up by the failure of the open source movement which is, to say the least... simply not failing.

Maybe I should write it just for myself and any collaborators since it seems to be in the spirit of poker that everyone should have to pay, forget the generosity and positives of open sourcing the code. Actually, I could do that, and I would be limited to what I could personally implement. Poker tracker is limited by a team of developers, that also will undoubtedly not be around forever to support paying customers and changes. If this type of thing was open and learned by even a few people, the software would be able to continue to thrive. I am done trying to explain this to you guys, maybe one of the supporters could point me in the direction of a software forum that has a poker discussion where people will just mind their own business if they find a project a waste of time? I'm pretty sure I could find a thousand projects online that I would consider less than worthwhile, should I have a problem with them being developed? Should I be writing in to the authors critically second guessing their desire to learn through coding? You must be real involved with software development, sounds like a very 'Microsoft' way of thinking, what do you have against open source? Many of the things you take for granted on today's internet would not be possible if not for the work of volunteer programmers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most programmers working in open source work for a salary. They are not volunteers.

You seem to be holding the open source banner high. You, of all people, should know that "free" refers not to money but restrictions on use and modification.

There is much more to writing a full-fledged software package which is ready for public disctribution that you seem to think. You seem to be saying that it would be a simple matter to write a parser, and a simple matter to write code that inserts records in to a database. True enough, these are fairly simple things. But you also seem to be making the connection that because these two things are simple to do, writing a PT equivelant must also be simple. This is about as far removed from reality as is possible, and frankly I'm suprised that you, supposedly being a programmer, would think otherwise.

I'm not suggesting that you should abandon your plan to write an open-source alternative to PT. In fact, I encourage you to do it. If you actually succeed, it will look good on your resume, at least.

Your original question was,

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?

[/ QUOTE ]

My answer is because it works, and because it's cheap. And because when it breaks (don't be so foolish as to think you'll write bug-free code) I know that I don't have to fix it myself.

My question for you is why are you opposed to paying for PokerTracker? What is wrong with doing things "the MicroSoft way?" (Which by the way is the way software has been produced since before MS existed)

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

I never said writing a PT equivilant would be simple do do, simply asked why with so many coders around, would they choose to use a program that they cannot change, I now know, because they are lazy, end of story. When I have time, I will maybe post my project here, until then thank you to the ones who have sent PMs and anyone else who wants to get involved please feel free to send one.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I now know, because they are lazy, end of story

[/ QUOTE ]

I speak for myself (but probably many others) when I say that the reason I didn't implement what you describe is not because I am lazy, but because doing so would require a gargantuan effort.

And your attitude as quoted above only serves to drive people away from your cause, not towards it. The very people you should want to contribute to your project, people like me, read your words and imagine someone who would be very unpleasant to work with. Is this really your goal?

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
why with so many coders around, would they choose to use a program that they cannot change: because they are lazy, end of story.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Good luck.

rvg

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
had only access to the trial version and I had hoped that the way things were stored with postgreSQL would be a little different and also easier for me to work with since I know postgres at least better than I know the Jet DB or whatever the trial version uses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now for something helpful, DB structure is essentially the same between PostgreSQL and Access. But really, if you are making a new program the last thing you would want to do is use the same DB model as poker tracker.

rvg

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
had only access to the trial version and I had hoped that the way things were stored with postgreSQL would be a little different and also easier for me to work with since I know postgres at least better than I know the Jet DB or whatever the trial version uses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now for something helpful, DB structure is essentially the same between PostgreSQL and Access. But really, if you are making a new program the last thing you would want to do is use the same DB model as poker tracker.

rvg

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. There really should be a street-by-street record of the action. For example it should be possible to construct a query that figures out how many times someone minraises. With the current PT structure, this is impossible.

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to be holding the open source banner high. You, of all people, should know that "free" refers not to money but restrictions on use and modification.

[/ QUOTE ]

"'Free software' is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of 'free' as in 'free speech', not as in 'free beer'." - GNU.org

Re: Why do you guys pay for Poker Tracker?
 

Excellent quote, Thug.