AA check, and call
 

Happened many days ago, Commerce $400/800.

I'm UTG and running super [censored] vs many opponents who are probably aware of that. I've often meakly called down with whatever, and lost to their slightly better hands, and have been playing very passively postflop, as often happens when running not well...

Anyway, UTG in a full game, I raise red AA.

Devon (SavageGamble) cold calls in MP. IMO Devon is one of the better LHE players around, fwiw. He doesn't cold call too many hands, so, I am guessing he is making a call with a hand he'd normally fold, but is playing because he wants to play pots vs me while I'm running poorly.

Flop JJ3. I bet, Devon calls.

Turn 5. I check, Devon bets, I call.

This is how it's been going a lot of times, so, I figure I may as well keep with the flow of the game and once again check and call this turn because that's what I've been doing all night long.

River 2. Board JJ352. I check, Devon again bets. I fumble around with my chips, consider a checkraise, then consider his hand range and what those hands will do vs a river checkraise, and call.


BK and I discussed this one and I've thought about it a lot and think in the given situation, my line is optimal to win the max and lose the least (with the basic assumption that no matter what, this hand is being shown down, so if say I were to checkraise the turn or river, that I'd call a 3bet and payoff).


Thoughts?

Re: AA check, and call
 

I think you played to passively, especially with your read on his cold call because of his view of your table presence. At least I would like to see check/call, check call, bet and call a raise...
I mean are you really putting him on KJ,AJ that quickly here? I think he plays 10 10 - KK the same way...

Lets make an extra bet or 2 on this hand...
I personally bet bet bet call a raise...
cdl

Re: AA check, and call
 

He doesn't have TT-KK here ever unless he thought he was open raising and didn't see my raise.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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He doesn't cold call too many hands, so, I am guessing he is making a call with a hand he'd normally fold

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Nothing wrong w/ the line you took, although it'd be hard not to raise the river given that villian's range still appears wide.

Re: AA check, and call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Happened many days ago, Commerce $400/800.

I'm UTG and running super [censored] vs many opponents who are probably aware of that. I've often meakly called down with whatever, and lost to their slightly better hands, and have been playing very passively postflop, as often happens when running not well...

Anyway, UTG in a full game, I raise red AA.

Devon (SavageGamble) cold calls in MP. IMO Devon is one of the better LHE players around, fwiw. He doesn't cold call too many hands, so, I am guessing he is making a call with a hand he'd normally fold, but is playing because he wants to play pots vs me while I'm running poorly.

Flop JJ3. I bet, Devon calls.

Turn 5. I check, Devon bets, I call.

This is how it's been going a lot of times, so, I figure I may as well keep with the flow of the game and once again check and call this turn because that's what I've been doing all night long.

River 2. Board JJ352. I check, Devon again bets. I fumble around with my chips, consider a checkraise, then consider his hand range and what those hands will do vs a river checkraise, and call.


BK and I discussed this one and I've thought about it a lot and think in the given situation, my line is optimal to win the max and lose the least (with the basic assumption that no matter what, this hand is being shown down, so if say I were to checkraise the turn or river, that I'd call a 3bet and payoff).


Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see the point in raising the river. What does he have that will pay you? 77? I kinda doubt that.

given your image, and the fact that you never have anything, i think he will find folds to any aggression. you either have him crucified, or he has a jack. let him barrell away.

Re: AA check, and call
 

this line is fine. checking the turn is clearly better than betting imo. the only question is whether or not to checkraise the river in case he has a hand like 65s or something, but i think (given his coldcall preflop) those types of hands are about as likely as Jx hands so its a standard river

Re: AA check, and call
 

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given your image, and the fact that you never have anything, i think he will find folds to any aggression.

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disagree, usually when someones running bad they try to make plays with garbage (ie checkraising air on rivers) to compensate for never having anything. he wont find a fold here with 77 or 65s.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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given your image, and the fact that you never have anything, i think he will find folds to any aggression.

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disagree, usually when someones running bad they try to make plays with garbage (ie checkraising air on rivers) to compensate for never having anything. he wont find a fold here with 77 or 65s.

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OK, but Mike's line smells like BS and Devon likely knows it. It sure would suck to get 3bet, as it may very well be a "I know you don't have [censored], so I'm 3betting you with my garbage." I don't want to be put in that spot, especially when I'm running bad and my decision making may be rattled.

Re: AA check, and call
 

Throw me a range then, because based on what your saying, your putting him on AJ, or KJ ONLY but not 1010+, I guess i am missing something, based on your table image, that is the range I am giving him, AJ+, 99+. all of which he plays about the same way...

If your assuming he would RR with those hands consider he realizes he shouldnt be calling in the first place, but he wants to much it up with you a bit at this point because he thinkgs your playing like crud. He may figure he can disguise his hand a little and pick a spot later, or just get away with calling a little loosely (aj or kj).
I hope I learn alot from this post because I seem to be way off base but i dont understand why.
I think you lost at least 1 bet, and played AA fairly weak imo. Hope I can learn from further discussion on this one.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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given your image, and the fact that you never have anything, i think he will find folds to any aggression.

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disagree, usually when someones running bad they try to make plays with garbage (ie checkraising air on rivers) to compensate for never having anything. he wont find a fold here with 77 or 65s.

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OK, but Mike's line smells like BS and Devon likely knows it. It sure would suck to get 3bet, as it may very well be a "I know you don't have [censored], so I'm 3betting you with my garbage." I don't want to be put in that spot, especially when I'm running bad and my decision making may be rattled.

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yeah, i definitely agree that checkraising here is not +EV

Re: AA check, and call
 

By betting the turn and looking pissed/almost folding when he raises how likely is it for us to induce a turnraise/river bet for value?

Re: AA check, and call
 

You really think he has a J here?

If the only J he's playing here is AJs, which seems reasonable, then there are 0-2 ways he can have that hand depending on how the suits of your aces match up with the suits of the jacks.

It seems far more likely to me he has a medium pocket pair. I would bet flop and turn and consider check-raising river if you feel you will get paid.

In fact if he raised the turn I would be pretty tempted to 3-bet, but I guess that should be more of a metagame decision based on how likely you think his 'new' distribution is to include Jx.

If this were online 10-max you would definitely be 3-betting that turn wouldn't you? Given that I had raised UTG my biggest fear would be that he has 55. The hands I would be ahead are various middle pair hands that he's possibly intending to check behind on the river.

I also think it's very reasonable for him to have cold-called with TT-QQ versus an UTG raise, if this is a full table. I am not sure whether he actually does that though.

Re: AA check, and call
 

Ni han. I knew I was going to like the way you played this when I saw the title. (Although you could have checked the flop too if you really want to have some fun.)

"my line is optimal to win the max and lose the least"

Agreed.

Tommy

Re: AA check, and call
 

im very curious as to what Devon cold calls you in this spot with.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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You really think he has a J here?

If the only J he's playing here is AJs, which seems reasonable,

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I'd think a lot of Jx hands fit the description of hands that he'd usually fold but would call with against someone whose running bad. Playing something like QJs for example in this spot might well be +EV if the opponent is playing too passively to punish you when you want to show down a weak pair, get a free card, move him off a hand cheaply, etc. The J is just about the last card I'd want to see paired on the board.

Re: AA check, and call
 

You certainly might be right about Devon's distribution here.

However if he thinks it's +EV to cold-call an UTG 10-max (or anywhere near 10-max) raise from a strong player with something like QJs just because that player is playing passively, he's definitely wrong.

Hands like QJs, JTs, KQs, etc are in really awful shape against an UTG raise. To play them you would need to know you were going to get very multiway action (or you would need to believe Schneids is tilted and opening super loose).

I know this is elementary stuff we're talking about just saying that I would be surprised if a competent player is cold-calling me with many Jx hands here.

Re: AA check, and call
 

"He doesn't have TT-KK here ever"

only played a handful of times with him but have seen him more than once cold call raises with big pairs and then play them weird postflop.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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You certainly might be right about Devon's distribution here.

However if he thinks it's +EV to cold-call an UTG 10-max (or anywhere near 10-max) raise from a strong player with something like QJs just because that player is playing passively, he's definitely wrong.

Hands like QJs, JTs, KQs, etc are in really awful shape against an UTG raise. To play them you would need to know you were going to get very multiway action (or you would need to believe Schneids is tilted and opening super loose).

I know this is elementary stuff we're talking about just saying that I would be surprised if a competent player is cold-calling me with many Jx hands here.

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Whether it's actually +EV or not I'm not certain, but I think a player in Devon's shoes could well perceive that it's +EV.

Re: AA check, and call
 

I think the river should be a c/r. I think the mid pairs all have to call you. Also, when you raise and he has QJ he has to be pretty confused as to what you have. I think a J will often not 3 bet here thinking that you have to have A4s or maybe a bluff which you would not call a 3 bet anyway.

I think you got a little too cute on this one, although I think the turn line is fine.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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Also, when you raise and he has QJ he has to be pretty confused as to what you have. I think a J will often not 3 bet here thinking that you have to have A4s or maybe a bluff which you would not call a 3 bet anyway.

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i find it hard to beleive a j is not 3towning a river c/r.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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Also, when you raise and he has QJ he has to be pretty confused as to what you have. I think a J will often not 3 bet here thinking that you have to have A4s or maybe a bluff which you would not call a 3 bet anyway.

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i find it hard to beleive a j is not 3towning a river c/r.

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I probably should have used the word 'sometimes' rather than 'often'.

Re: AA check, and call
 

I think the line you chose is perfectly acceptable, but it's funny how people tend to run bad in different ways. Instead of check/calling a lot, I seem to wind up betting the turn/folding to a raise a lot when running bad. Something you're probably too good/too feared to have to go through.

So because of my running bad image, I'd prefer to lead the turn in order to induce the inevitable bluff/raise on the turn that is sure to come. I might even lead the river. But again, I think your line is fine.

Re: AA check, and call
 

I'm with goofball here, since you are running bad and never has the good why is betting the turn so bad ? Why wouldn't you want to bet the turn and have it raised by a hand like 66-77. Sicne you are running bad he might want to push your around some...

Re: AA check, and call
 

this is my thought as well, can someone expand on why this isnt "correct" according to all the other 2+2ers? I just think we can make an extra bet here a large % of the time. Risk = reward and I would love to know a hand range that the calling advocates are putting him on???
I am really looking to learn from this post, maybe this is a crap spot in my game (over agg?)
thanks
cdl

Re: AA check, and call
 

i actually really like this line, if you lead the turn and he has trips jacks your going to pay him off and lose more bets. If he has nothing and peeled lightly he will fold to a bet and you win nothing. Same with the river, checking risks very little since you wont lose many bets and allows him to bet in to you with a very wide range. He also prolly thinks you will pay him off a with a weak pair so he can easily have 33-99. I think you played this hand very well for the circumstances.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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"He doesn't have TT-KK here ever"

only played a handful of times with him but have seen him more than once cold call raises with big pairs and then play them weird postflop.

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Agree with this and also agree he is very very good. I think you played it well, not much to add I guess. Run better.

-DeathDonkey

Re: AA check, and call
 

Didn't someone post a hand almost exactly like this a few months ago? I'm not sure if the guy coldcalled preflop or if hero 3-bet preflop from the blinds but the flop was paired and the postflop action was identical and hero had AA or KK.

Re: AA check, and call
 

I think you played it perfectly considering the fators you described.

At first I thought maybe a river check raise was in order but in hindsight he probably has nothing or a jack so a check call is the winner in the win most lose least contest.

Personally, if he a solid hi stakes player cold called my under the gun raise, the Jacks would scare me. If he is tailoring his play to take advantage of how poorly you are a running, I think he would three bet to isolate with a lot of pair hands and better aces. The JJ flop just seems like it could be in the wheelhouse of JTs, QJs, KJs, hands that perhaps he would play for two cold feeling that headsup versus schneids is just fine, but hey, if i get action from around back I'm okay too.

All in all thouugh I think bet check/call check/call is ideal in this spot in this day and age.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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Didn't someone post a hand almost exactly like this a few months ago? I'm not sure if the guy coldcalled preflop or if hero 3-bet preflop from the blinds but the flop was paired and the postflop action was identical and hero had AA or KK.

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and?

Re: AA check, and call
 

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The JJ flop just seems like it could be in the wheelhouse of JTs, QJs, KJs, hands that perhaps he would play for two cold feeling that headsup versus schneids is just fine, but hey, if i get action from around back I'm okay too.

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Why would he want to coldcall an UTG raise w/such a dominated hand? I feel it would be more likely for him to do it w/a mid pp.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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Didn't someone post a hand almost exactly like this a few months ago? I'm not sure if the guy coldcalled preflop or if hero 3-bet preflop from the blinds but the flop was paired and the postflop action was identical and hero had AA or KK.

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and?

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Lol, good one.

It would probably be worthwhile to see what everyone said in that thread.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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Also, when you raise and he has QJ he has to be pretty confused as to what you have. I think a J will often not 3 bet here thinking that you have to have A4s or maybe a bluff which you would not call a 3 bet anyway.

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i find it hard to beleive a j is not 3towning a river c/r.

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But he's folding 77? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: AA check, and call
 

i think you are likely to get raised on the turn on this kind of board by such a player but he is just as likely to raise you with a mid pocket pair as he is with a jack. A lot of times he will check behind on the river and YHIG. Its two bets either way and sometimes he might make a mistake and try to value bet the river. I am comfortable putting in 3 bb here after the turn either way so i would just prefer to bet the turn and call down.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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The JJ flop just seems like it could be in the wheelhouse of JTs, QJs, KJs, hands that perhaps he would play for two cold feeling that headsup versus schneids is just fine, but hey, if i get action from around back I'm okay too.

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Why would he want to coldcall an UTG raise w/such a dominated hand? I feel it would be more likely for him to do it w/a mid pp.

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How does being dominated hurts you? It hurts you when your opponent puts you to tough decisions, either making you call some extra bets when you're probably losing, or perhaps occasionally playing back at you when he doesn't have much himself. Both of those things require aggressive play. If running bad turns someone into a calling station, then the domination is less of a concern.

Re: AA check, and call
 

Your opponent wouldn't put you on AA the way you played up until he bets the river. You've played it more like AK.

Re: AA check, and call
 

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I am comfortable putting in 3 bb here

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Re: AA check, and call
 

you're playing this way too passive vs an aggressive player like devon.
I would bet/call teh turn.
I think not putting in 3bbs on the big streets is a mistake here. This is a form of tilt from running bad.
Don't you think he will raise 66+ here pretty much everytime on the turn.

Re: AA check, and call
 

"Don't you think he will raise 66+ here pretty much everytime on the turn."

how about on the flop?

Re: AA check, and call
 

Obviously I don't play this high but!

I really like this play every now and then especially when running bad. It will certainly help in the future when people remember this and are more likely to check behind not so good hands on the river and give free cards galore.

Re: AA check, and call
 

I like betting the turn and then calling down a raise. However, this could be due to the fact that I continuation bet a lot so a turn bet doesn't imply great strength. If he perceives you as being meek right now and any bet from you is showing strength, then checking the turn is probably correct.

However, he's probably not betting the turn with nothing. You have been calling down with mediocre hands so he's trying to take you to value town. I'm not sure what this means, but I don't like the comments that imply he's bluffing you when you are describing yourself as a calling station.

Finally, I think that this hand isn't nearly as important as one where you don't have a good hand but still show aggression. If people are viewing you as passive right now it is a good time to raise the turn with a draw and fold out a better hand, etc.