No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

I came out of my wimpy weak-tight shell in this hand and might be accused of overplaying it.

Great Commerce 20/40 game. I'm in MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hijack and CO are both horrible, horrible players. CO is the worst, but HJ has shown some erratic, bad tendencies, mostly peeling anything and everything on the flop, then never ever folding rivers even when he's obviously beat.

Both of these guys have just gotten back from a smoke break and posted their blind+dead blinds, so there's 3SBs in dead money already in the pot, plus the SB and BB. The SB is the only other good player at the table, 2+2er onegymrat.

There's an EP limp, and MP1 to my right raises. He's shown some good aggression so far but is losing. He has no problem 3-betting AQ preflop and also has no problem getting super passive on big streets.

So doing some quick math, I decide to cold-call since we'll be 6-ways to the flop. Hijack and CO both call, onegymrat folds, but the BB folds too. The limper calls and we're actually 5 to the flop for 12.5 SBs.

The flop comes out Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Checked to MP1 who bets, I call, HJ raises, CO folds, limper folds, MP1 calls. I 3-bet. HJ and MP1 both call.

Turn is the 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Check, I bet, and now HJ tanks. At least 10 seconds and seems genuinely troubled -- not an act. He's a confused, sloppy middle-aged Asian gambooler and not the type to try and psych people out with reverse tells. He's also lost several pots to me. After tanking he raises. MP1 turbomucks, and I 3-bet. Now HJ tanks again and starts cursing himself in Chinese and finally puts 8 more chips in the pot.

The river is the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet!!!

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

you only beat worse flushes, so i think it comes down to what his tank on the turn was about, was it because he was how thinking his five is no good? or his flush is no good?...but you need to fold to a raise...i also think that you will never fold a 5 so you are only bettin for value against worse flushes...

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

I am not quite sure what you put him on, but from the way the hand played out, he either has a 5 or a lower flush. A lower flush will probably muck, so betting has no value, and a 5 will just be confused to no end.

He will think he was beat by the flush on the turn, but what the heck are you doing betting the river on a double paired board. A confused 5 here can't fold, and won't fold. Don't know what your reasoning behind this river bet was, but I would love to hear it.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

that pope,

i think you are wrong that a lower flush will muck here...i think that from his description he will bust out a commerce shuffle/shuffle/show his neighbor/shuffle/shuffle/muck/yell at the dealer in korean move...

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

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I am not quite sure what you put him on, but from the way the hand played out, he either has a 5 or a lower flush. A lower flush will probably muck, so betting has no value, and a 5 will just be confused to no end.

He will think he was beat by the flush on the turn, but what the heck are you doing betting the river on a double paired board. A confused 5 here can't fold, and won't fold. Don't know what your reasoning behind this river bet was, but I would love to hear it.

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You pretty much said it -- he either has a 5 or a lower flush. A 5 won't raise me because a Q beats him (and this guy doesn't read hands, for all he knows I could have Q9 or something), and a lower flush will call me. I don't know if you read my long-winded read, but this guy never ever folds rivers once he gets there.

But if I check, he'll never bet a lower flush, but he'll probably bet a 5.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

Yeah, I overlooked the never folding river part. My apologies...

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

PJ,

I really don't like your flop pump. With the board being paired, your equity just isn't big enough to do this.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

It really looks like he has a 5, like he was *planning* to raise the turn except the hand he put you on just got there, but he doesn't have the stopping power to adjust his line. If you've been beating him, there is a decent chance he checks behind the river with a 5. If he has a lesser flush and raised the flop with a flush draw, it seems like he'd be too gambooler-happy to put you on a hand until you 3bet the turn.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

I would not bet the river as the pot is too big to fold and you can't be certain he won't raise you. He doesn't have a smaller flush very often here. I do like how you played the other streets, especially the flop.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

Joker --

Very nice hand.

--Nate

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

Good luck! Might as well have Ac6d. I'm sure mike l. would approve.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

I highly doubt a fish plays a 5 like that unless he has the King of spades to go with it maybe. He either has Q9 or a smaller flush.

The ideal play on the river is bet-fold. Big pot means you need big balls to follow through on that though.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

PJ: River really confuses me because of the villain's read on your hand. No way will he believe you have a pair of Q's after the flop and turn action. I know your plan was to bet/fold, please share some more insight why a bet is better than a check in this specific scenario.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

River:He has a smaller flush & will call you with it,Nice bet.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

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PJ: River really confuses me because of the villain's read on your hand. No way will he believe you have a pair of Q's after the flop and turn action. I know your plan was to bet/fold, please share some more insight why a bet is better than a check in this specific scenario.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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TT, are you going to check/fold? because check/call is pretty bad here for the reasons OP already gave.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

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PJ: River really confuses me because of the villain's read on your hand. No way will he believe you have a pair of Q's after the flop and turn action. I know your plan was to bet/fold, please share some more insight why a bet is better than a check in this specific scenario.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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TT, are you going to check/fold? because check/call is pretty bad here for the reasons OP already gave.

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I never said fold.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

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PJ: River really confuses me because of the villain's read on your hand. No way will he believe you have a pair of Q's after the flop and turn action. I know your plan was to bet/fold, please share some more insight why a bet is better than a check in this specific scenario.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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TT, are you going to check/fold? because check/call is pretty bad here for the reasons OP already gave.

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I never said fold.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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TT what range are you putting villain on. do you think he's actually going to check behind with a boat here? Do you think he has a queen? might he have a flush?

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

[ QUOTE ]
PJ: River really confuses me because of the villain's read on your hand. No way will he believe you have a pair of Q's after the flop and turn action. I know your plan was to bet/fold, please share some more insight why a bet is better than a check in this specific scenario.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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TT, it's not so much that I'm trying to represent a Q here, even though it's certainly one secondary reason to bet. The main reason is in reading his hand. I think the only logical conclusions are that he has a 5 or a flush. But let's look closer at when he came alive. He raised the flop, as people might do here with a) a flush draw, b) a Q, c) a 5.

But then I 3-bet the flop, and he just called even though there was another person in the hand. If he'd had the made hand, he'd 4-bet. Then the turn brings a third spade. I continue betting, and now he raises! What did he like about that 9s? It really makes a flush look very likely, which is why I insta 3-bet the turn. He could also have a 5, and for some reason decided to slow on the flop and come back again on the turn (maybe his tanking was like, "oh no, are my three 5s any good now that the spade came in?").

So I have to bet the river because I just won't get raised very often at all. If he is bold enough to raise a 5, I'm beat anyway. It is a ridiculously easy fold to a raise here, since nobody at Commerce ever expects their opponent to fold in this spot. If this guy is raising me, he has a boat 100% of the time. But since flushes are just as likely as boats, and add in the fact that he won't raise a 5 very often, there's still value in betting out because he will find it way too hard to fold a flush for 1 more bet in a huge pot.

If I'm going to put one more bet into this pot, it's going to be with me betting -- not calling.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

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But then I 3-bet the flop, and he just called even though there was another person in the hand. If he'd had the made hand, he'd 4-bet.

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Ahh - Perhaps I'm getting a bit used to the lack of aggression in Vegas games, surprisingly I have seen the call/raise turn line with multi-way monsters a lot out here. The locals like to slow down and trap in the 8/16 and 15/30 games (thats what I have been playing lately), thats why I found it hard to define the hand by discounting the 5x range. My error, I've let my recent experience warp my mind [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Thanks for getting it straight.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

Are you sure he will call you with a lower flush on the river? It essentially beats nothing given the action.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

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Are you sure he will call you with a lower flush on the river?

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I'm not sure, no. But I haven't seen him fold a river in 2 hours.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

i'd fold preflop. i'm surprised nobody said anything yet, so i guess i will. your relative position sucks and there is still some possibility that there will be a 3-bet behind you. being first to act after the raiser is not good for drawing hands or even if you flop the world it will be hard to maximize value. your position is only good for protecting pairs and protecting a pair of 6's or a dominted ace doesn't sound too appealing. Axs is a 1 seat or 9 seat hand, not a 5 or 6 seat hand.

i don't like your flop pump. its certainly not for value 3 ways on a paired board, and with you holding the nutterball draw its less likely your villain is pumping a draw himself which means he likely has a Q or 5, which means you are going to have to hit to win usually.

turn and river are standard obv.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

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I'd fold preflop. i'm surprised nobody said anything yet, so i guess i will.

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I agree, but I thought PJ covered that in his OP - he was playing rather loose. Its not a horrible call considering the scenario (I've seen you call a lot worse) but its not something I would do because the hero isn't closing the action and will most likely not be acting last.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

nh aside from flop 3-bet.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

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i'd fold preflop. i'm surprised nobody said anything yet, so i guess i will. your relative position sucks and there is still some possibility that there will be a 3-bet behind you. being first to act after the raiser is not good for drawing hands or even if you flop the world it will be hard to maximize value. your position is only good for protecting pairs and protecting a pair of 6's or a dominted ace doesn't sound too appealing. Axs is a 1 seat or 9 seat hand, not a 5 or 6 seat hand.

i don't like your flop pump. its certainly not for value 3 ways on a paired board, and with you holding the nutterball draw its less likely your villain is pumping a draw himself which means he likely has a Q or 5, which means you are going to have to hit to win usually.

turn and river are standard obv.

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Agreed, not sure river is standard, but it probably should be.

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

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Its not a horrible call considering the scenario (I've seen you call a lot worse)

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first of all, i don't know if you know, but i play EXPERT limit holdem postflop. that is probably something that a NONEXPERT like you wouldn't understand.

second of all, well, actually that was my only point. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

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Its not a horrible call considering the scenario (I've seen you call a lot worse)

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first of all, i don't know if you know, but i play EXPERT limit holdem postflop. that is probably something that a NONEXPERT like you wouldn't understand.

second of all, well, actually that was my only point. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I guess that explains calling 2 bets cold on the button and drawing 4 cards. I have to admit you got there, expert post-"flop" play [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Hope all is well...

TT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: No fear! (Joker gets aggressive)
 

Results, for those of you who care:

He called with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and MHIG send it.