I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

BB and button are both very loose, very bad. Button is a min-bettor and min-raiser whose running at 50/20ish. BB is 70/40 and calls bets and raises very light, though I doubt he calls a reraise from me without a stronger than normal hand. Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($198.30)
Hero ($239.70)
BB ($321.30)
UTG ($297.60)
MP ($187.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, MP calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($8) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5</font>, BB calls $5, UTG calls $5, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $10</font>, Hero calls $5, BB calls $5, UTG calls $5.

Turn: ($48) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $32</font>, BB calls $32, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $64</font>, Hero ... ?

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

push. If BB folds, to bad. But i think the pot is to big and to drawy here to get fancy.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

push and free roll.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
push. If BB folds, to bad. But i think the pot is to big and to drawy here to get fancy.

[/ QUOTE ]

right action, wrong reason behind it. MP doesn't have a flush draw, BB could have anything. If someone is on that draw, its only a 5 outer. The reason we push is because MP will not fold after a double min raise.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
push. If BB folds, to bad. But i think the pot is to big and to drawy here to get fancy.

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After MP (I called him Button in OP -- oops) minraises the turn like i expected he would, there isn't really much reason to think he won't pay off a river push. Since I have 2 diamonds I'm not too concerned about what I'll see on the river. What about smooth-calling and pushing any river?

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

Push.

However,
I do not like the line post flop though.
I would reraise preflop if you are going to play the hand. You are OOP and against these maniacs you have to narrow down the field. I know you should (normaly) see a cheap flop with SC but your hand is pretty strong and OOP I would raise in order to use a scare card on flop (if it comes one).

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would reraise preflop if you are going to play the hand. You are OOP and against these maniacs you have to narrow down the field. I know you should (normaly) see a cheap flop with SC but your hand is pretty strong and OOP I would raise in order to use a scare card on flop (if it comes one).

[/ QUOTE ]
This is completely off. Why would you like to get it HU (maybe 3-ways) OOP vs a LAG in a big pot with SC? What's your plan for the flop? You'll probably end up spewing or just check/folding unless you hit something, and SCs don't often hit anything with SD value, which you like against a LAG. Getting to the flop cheap and multiway is the best line here.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
However,
I do not like the line post flop though.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay ...

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I would reraise preflop if you are going to play the hand. You are OOP and against these maniacs you have to narrow down the field. I know you should (normaly) see a cheap flop with SC but your hand is pretty strong and OOP I would raise in order to use a scare card on flop (if it comes one).

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This is really really bad here. Maniacs almost by definition don't like to fold, so explain to me why I would build a big pot OOP with a hand that usually needs to hit the flop hard to win vs. two players who will call me light? I have pretty ridiculous implied odds to just call preflop, and there are no benefits at all to raising vs. these opponents.

As far as on the flop, I suppose could reraise if I want to and take the coinflip vs. whatever MP has (or be slightly the worse if he has a set) while possibly knocking out the other donkeys, or I could build a nice pot with minimal investment vs. 3 people, at least 2 of which will pay me off if I hit. I like the second option here.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

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What about smooth-calling and pushing any river?

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Just push the turn. MP won't fold and it seems BB has a draw of some sort and I think he's more likely to pay now than on the river. It's not as much that you're afraid of the river, but a fd will pay now but not when it misses the river (and most often the fd is bigger than yours, even though you have 2 clean sf diamonds). Same goes for combo draws, oesd etc.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

step 1: SHOVEZO
step 1a: get called in 2 spots
step 2: ???
step 3: PROFIT

easy push

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would reraise preflop if you are going to play the hand. You are OOP and against these maniacs you have to narrow down the field. I know you should (normaly) see a cheap flop with SC but your hand is pretty strong and OOP I would raise in order to use a scare card on flop (if it comes one).

[/ QUOTE ]
This is completely off. Why would you like to get it HU (maybe 3-ways) OOP vs a LAG in a big pot with SC? What's your plan for the flop? You'll probably end up spewing or just check/folding unless you hit something, and SCs don't often hit anything with SD value, which you like against a LAG. Getting to the flop cheap and multiway is the best line here.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, its a different line to the way the hand was played. The ABC poker is the way it was played here but sometimes I wanna play my SC differently.

Its really MP that is the agressor post flop here (there is no stats on him, only the button and the BB. But if MP=Button I still wanna raise some times). If I raise preflop I could use an Ace on the flop as my scare card. If LAG is limping I put them on a low/middle par or a couple of face cards or FD. If an Ace comes and I bet and villain raise me I´m out if I dont get a piece of the flop .

I just find it very hard to play against these type of opponents and I am really trying to play these hands different ways to mix up and develop my game.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
step 1: SHOVEZO
step 1a: get called in 2 spots
step 2: ???
step 3: PROFIT

easy push

[/ QUOTE ]

Steps 1 and 3 seem clear, as there's no way for me to play this that isn't going to be profitable. I'm not sure a push is better than a call, though. Here's my reasoning:

MP feels he has a strong hand (not a draw) and will stack off no matter what the river brings because (1) he'll have about 1/2 pot bet left, and (2) he's a donk and he just min-raised me twice. No matter what I do, the outcome with respect to MP is the same.

If I call, BB will call with anything he has, and may re-raise anything that would call my push. His hand is very wide at this point: Top pair+, straight draw, flush draw, pair + gutshot, overcards + gutshot, whatever. Isn't it possible there is more value here in inducing him to call on the turn, and thereby making it more likely he'll stack off on the river, seeing that he's getting pretty good pot odds to call my river push?

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

Make it $140 to really build this sucker.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

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If I call, BB will call with anything he has, and may re-raise anything that would call my push. His hand is very wide at this point: Top pair+, straight draw, flush draw, pair + gutshot, overcards + gutshot, whatever. Isn't it possible there is more value here in inducing him to call on the turn, and thereby making it more likely he'll stack off on the river, seeing that he's getting pretty good pot odds to call my river push?

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I can't tell you how many times I see greedy players get unlucky when someone catches a 4-outer to improve two pair to a full house simply because the greedy player slowplayed a made hand that wasn't a cinch. Also, a lot of the hands in MP's range are drawing hands, right? Doesn't it make sense to charge MP more money before all of the cards are out? In general, don't get greedy thinking about keeping both players in. Raise this pot on the turn. If you're not convinced yet, reread your post and think about what happens if a blank hits on the river (which is the most likely outcome). I don't think a slowplay has as much +EV as pushing the turn, especially if you're convinced that MP will come along for the ride no matter what you do. Forget about UTG - after MP's mini-raise, the pot's at $170. Raise to somewhere in the $140 range, giving MP about 3-1 odds on his river card (he won't be getting the right odds to call if he's on a flush or straight draw, but sounds like he will either call or raise based on your take).

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

Raising to $140 is dumb - either I push or call, but betting in between makes no sense here.

MP has a made hand -- 2 pair or set probably. He doesn't minraise after a bet and a call with a draw. BB could have a draw, but he's at least as likely to have a hand like top pair that has no chance of winning.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

I'd minreraise b/c this idiots will have no idea what it means.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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I would reraise preflop if you are going to play the hand. You are OOP and against these maniacs you have to narrow down the field. I know you should (normaly) see a cheap flop with SC but your hand is pretty strong and OOP I would raise in order to use a scare card on flop (if it comes one).

[/ QUOTE ]
This is completely off. Why would you like to get it HU (maybe 3-ways) OOP vs a LAG in a big pot with SC? What's your plan for the flop? You'll probably end up spewing or just check/folding unless you hit something, and SCs don't often hit anything with SD value, which you like against a LAG. Getting to the flop cheap and multiway is the best line here.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, its a different line to the way the hand was played. The ABC poker is the way it was played here but sometimes I wanna play my SC differently.

Its really MP that is the agressor post flop here (there is no stats on him, only the button and the BB. But if MP=Button I still wanna raise some times). If I raise preflop I could use an Ace on the flop as my scare card. If LAG is limping I put them on a low/middle par or a couple of face cards or FD. If an Ace comes and I bet and villain raise me I´m out if I dont get a piece of the flop .

I just find it very hard to play against these type of opponents and I am really trying to play these hands different ways to mix up and develop my game.

[/ QUOTE ]
If your line was a "I play this way 2% of the time to mix it up"-line, then you need to state it in your first post. But fact is, most often you don't need to mix it up against lags and as a standard line your line is silly. And playing lags oop is not as easy as you make it, they will float with nothing and bluff alot. SC doesn't fare well HU oop against them.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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I would reraise preflop if you are going to play the hand. You are OOP and against these maniacs you have to narrow down the field. I know you should (normaly) see a cheap flop with SC but your hand is pretty strong and OOP I would raise in order to use a scare card on flop (if it comes one).

[/ QUOTE ]
This is completely off. Why would you like to get it HU (maybe 3-ways) OOP vs a LAG in a big pot with SC? What's your plan for the flop? You'll probably end up spewing or just check/folding unless you hit something, and SCs don't often hit anything with SD value, which you like against a LAG. Getting to the flop cheap and multiway is the best line here.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, its a different line to the way the hand was played. The ABC poker is the way it was played here but sometimes I wanna play my SC differently.

Its really MP that is the agressor post flop here (there is no stats on him, only the button and the BB. But if MP=Button I still wanna raise some times). If I raise preflop I could use an Ace on the flop as my scare card. If LAG is limping I put them on a low/middle par or a couple of face cards or FD. If an Ace comes and I bet and villain raise me I´m out if I dont get a piece of the flop .

I just find it very hard to play against these type of opponents and I am really trying to play these hands different ways to mix up and develop my game.

[/ QUOTE ]
If your line was a "I play this way 2% of the time to mix it up"-line, then you need to state it in your first post. But fact is, most often you don't need to mix it up against lags and as a standard line your line is silly. And playing lags oop is not as easy as you make it, they will float with nothing and bluff alot. SC doesn't fare well HU oop against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that (in general) SC is not good HU against LAG´s, and it´s NOT my standard line. But the whole idea of this forum is to discuss hands and come up with alternative solution to different problems, right? I really appreciate the discussion!

However, going back to the hand I hope you understand that the line played in the hand is good played but my intention was to highlight a differnt line to get a discussion going...

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't tell you how many times I see greedy players get unlucky when someone catches a 4-outer to improve two pair to a full house simply because the greedy player slowplayed a made hand that wasn't a cinch.

[/ QUOTE ]
2-pair won't ever fold so that doesn't matter at all.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Top pair+, straight draw, flush draw, pair + gutshot, overcards + gutshot

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This range is more likely to pay on the turn imo.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

There is no alternative aside from push on this turn.


you don't want a diamond to hit. You don't want the board to pair. Thats a lot of cards you don't want to hit.

please put it in.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

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Raising to $140 is dumb - either I push or call, but betting in between makes no sense here.

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Raising to anything can be good unless you think that will make them realise how strong you are.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

Looks to me like both of these idiots are calling no matter what. I really didn't see what the delima was w/ this hand, 2 calling stations reraising against your nuts w/ a redraw? Offer them the worst odds possible and hope that MP3 doesn't fill up on the river. May be a split situation as well, hope that BB calls.

Re: I can get one for sure, but can I stack two donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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I would reraise preflop if you are going to play the hand. You are OOP and against these maniacs you have to narrow down the field. I know you should (normaly) see a cheap flop with SC but your hand is pretty strong and OOP I would raise in order to use a scare card on flop (if it comes one).

[/ QUOTE ]
This is completely off. Why would you like to get it HU (maybe 3-ways) OOP vs a LAG in a big pot with SC? What's your plan for the flop? You'll probably end up spewing or just check/folding unless you hit something, and SCs don't often hit anything with SD value, which you like against a LAG. Getting to the flop cheap and multiway is the best line here.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, its a different line to the way the hand was played. The ABC poker is the way it was played here but sometimes I wanna play my SC differently.

Its really MP that is the agressor post flop here (there is no stats on him, only the button and the BB. But if MP=Button I still wanna raise some times). If I raise preflop I could use an Ace on the flop as my scare card. If LAG is limping I put them on a low/middle par or a couple of face cards or FD. If an Ace comes and I bet and villain raise me I´m out if I dont get a piece of the flop .

I just find it very hard to play against these type of opponents and I am really trying to play these hands different ways to mix up and develop my game.

[/ QUOTE ]
If your line was a "I play this way 2% of the time to mix it up"-line, then you need to state it in your first post. But fact is, most often you don't need to mix it up against lags and as a standard line your line is silly. And playing lags oop is not as easy as you make it, they will float with nothing and bluff alot. SC doesn't fare well HU oop against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that (in general) SC is not good HU against LAG´s, and it´s NOT my standard line. But the whole idea of this forum is to discuss hands and come up with alternative solution to different problems, right? I really appreciate the discussion!

However, going back to the hand I hope you understand that the line played in the hand is good played but my intention was to highlight a differnt line to get a discussion going...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah ur line works if u know ur going to flop the monster draw that you flopped...but you dont...so does your raise of 89s oop accomplish? Its not for value since 9 high is almost never good, and you cant gain position by doing so. For deception? Your giving up to much being oop to do it this time.

Now if we change this to you being on the button then yeah i can see it being a decent play...but oop its probably a money loser especially against people who are willing to call down light