KK on dry flop
 

500 nl, eff stacks 500, vill unknown

I raise 20 withKK UTG, vill ccs UTG+1, 2 other callers

flop - 963 rainbow
check to me, i bet 59 into 79, he raises to 179, others fold.

My thoughts here are, flop is dry so why raise a set especially with 2 guys behind

Re: KK on dry flop
 

u can call and stack off the turn or 3-bet flop since people are dumb dont matter too much

dont fold

Re: KK on dry flop
 

I push now because they don't fold A9 but might on certain turns.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

I'd expect him to have an overpair here, so push. I sometimes take a turn but only in position.

Edit: where are you playing?

Re: KK on dry flop
 

fold.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

Push it in.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

Are these replies for real? Jesus christ, the advice is horrible.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are these replies for real? Jesus christ, the advice is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are these replies for real? Jesus christ, the advice is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

[/ QUOTE ]

MDMA,

it would be nice if you could post your thoughts after you say something like this.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are these replies for real? Jesus christ, the advice is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

[/ QUOTE ]@ the guys saying shove to stack A9 or an overpair. No offense fellas, but that's pretty bad advice.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

is it because the villain has raised the flop with 2 players still yet to act, and hero's hand is likely to be an overpair betting into 3players on the flop (true's range is of course bigger than that, but we don't know villain's perception of true). So villain is likely able to beat that, i.e have a set?

Re: KK on dry flop
 

I think you can profitably felt this hand on the flop vs an unknown.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are these replies for real? Jesus christ, the advice is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

[/ QUOTE ]@ the guys saying shove to stack A9 or an overpair. No offense fellas, but that's pretty bad advice.

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah but what does calling accomplish other than letting worse hands catch up?

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are these replies for real? Jesus christ, the advice is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

[/ QUOTE ]@ the guys saying shove to stack A9 or an overpair. No offense fellas, but that's pretty bad advice.

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah but what does calling accomplish other than letting worse hands catch up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, calling or raising basically turns your cards face up (unless he thinks you're dumb enough to call with AK) so I prefer reraising just to take it down or hope he gets cute and tries to hunt a bluff.

All in isn't a value bet there, though...

- C -

Re: KK on dry flop
 

No, I will not explain it further.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

shove

Re: KK on dry flop
 

I probably don't fold. I think i get it in on the flop b/c he could easily have 78, and if you overshove, looks like you're rele weak, allowing A9 or so to call (very likely in his range). I don't mind calling and getting it on the turn, but u will be lost if the straight gets made with the 5 or the T on turn, or if board pairs. If you suspect villain is capable of bluffing, easiest call ever and c/rai on turn, since no matter what turn is, you really can't allow more free cards.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah but what does calling accomplish other than letting worse hands catch up?

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, I didn't expect to hear this from you. I recall you being one to chastise valueless bets. I thought I was the only one who saw merit in protecting your hand and folding out people who will only put more money in if they suck out.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

This is a joke right? It's an obvious fold here guys. Villian cold calls, then he raises your c-bet with TWOOOOOO GUYS BEHIND HIM, you think he's doing that with A9?!

Barrin6
lighting fire

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a joke right? It's an obvious fold here guys. Villian cold calls, then he raises your c-bet with TWOOOOOO GUYS BEHIND HIM, you think he's doing that with A9?!

Barrin6
lighting fire

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is villian is an unknown and most unknowns are donkeys. Saying that, I don't think you lose much - if anything - by folding.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

Villain would have to be a complete monkey to call the UTG raise from UTG+1 with A9. TT-QQ are the main hands we're beating with the outside shot that this bozo wants to make sure his 88 isn't good.

I think it's a tough decision, but when your UTG raise is called in 3 places and somebody raises you on a dry flop, it's hard not to give the guy credit for a set. I probably grumble and fold, unless villain is an obvious fish.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
u can call and stack off the turn or 3-bet flop since people are dumb dont matter too much

dont fold

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha. fold.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a joke right? It's an obvious fold here guys. Villian cold calls, then he raises your c-bet with TWOOOOOO GUYS BEHIND HIM, you think he's doing that with A9?!

Barrin6
lighting fire

[/ QUOTE ]

People seem to like felting stupid hands, and I like to let them.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a joke right? It's an obvious fold here guys. Villian cold calls, then he raises your c-bet with TWOOOOOO GUYS BEHIND HIM, you think he's doing that with A9?!

Barrin6
lighting fire

[/ QUOTE ]

People seem to like felting stupid hands, and I like to let them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct but not with 2 people left to act behind.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are these replies for real? Jesus christ, the advice is horrible.

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This is brilliant, especially since a call, push, and fold have all been advocated.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

Yeah yeah, I wasn't saying shove is worse than call, I was talking about the reasoning. Doesn't really matter though I fold.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a joke right? It's an obvious fold here guys. Villian cold calls, then he raises your c-bet with TWOOOOOO GUYS BEHIND HIM, you think he's doing that with A9?!

Barrin6
lighting fire

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is villian is an unknown and most unknowns are donkeys. Saying that, I don't think you lose much - if anything - by folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than the $320 you're right, there's not much to lose by folding.

- C -

Re: KK on dry flop
 

Fold here seems forced, but I wonder how to play it without the two players behind ...

Re: KK on dry flop
 

I think he has QQ-TT/88 here at least as often as he has 99/66/33.. Couldn't his raise be an attempt to shut out the rest of the field with a vulnerable overpair, particularly since everybody thinks everybody always c-bets these days?

Re: KK on dry flop
 

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I push now because they don't fold A9 but might on certain turns.

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Pushing is wayyyyyyy worst than calling if you think villian has A9. Actually, even if he's showing A9, shoving is sooo bad, you are over reprsentin your hand right at that moment.

Barrin6
shoving ain't goot

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think he has QQ-TT/88 here at least as often as he has 99/66/33.. Couldn't his raise be an attempt to shut out the rest of the field with a vulnerable overpair, particularly since everybody thinks everybody always c-bets these days?

[/ QUOTE ]

so he:

1)just calls, say, JJ UTG+1, likely fearing your UTG range;
2)raises your cbet into 3 people on a 9 high board because now he loves his hand vs your range a lot more.

okay.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I push now because they don't fold A9 but might on certain turns.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing is wayyyyyyy worst than calling if you think villian has A9. Actually, even if he's showing A9, shoving is sooo bad, you are over reprsentin your hand right at that moment.

Barrin6
shoving ain't goot

[/ QUOTE ]

If you KNEW villain had A9 then shoving is prob better than calling but w/e

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
so he:

1)just calls, say, JJ UTG+1, likely fearing your UTG range;
2)raises your cbet into 3 people on a 9 high board because now he loves his hand vs your range a lot more.

okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

a better example is he called with 88 trying to hit a set but the flop is so dry that he wants to protect his hand or get information or something. people are stupid and do stupid things like this all the time.

barrin, if he flips over A9 i dont see how calling > shoving.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
so he:

1)just calls, say, JJ UTG+1, likely fearing your UTG range;
2)raises your cbet into 3 people on a 9 high board because now he loves his hand vs your range a lot more.

okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've never seen this? Really?

Not everyone that plays MSNL 3-bets like its their job PF a la 2+2. Many people will smooth call those raises with QQ- because they "want to see if an ace or king flops so they can get out cheap." Is it optimal play? No, not usually, but it still happens. I'm not saying he can't have a set here, but I wouldn't be stunned if an unknown felted TT here either. If his impression is that hero will c-bet into a four player field with an AK that misses, then raising JJ might make a lot of sense to him. People love overpairs.

Just because people don't repop PF with TT-QQ doesn't mean they're playing it exclusively for set value and certainly doesn't mean that they are all passive postflop on a dry board. They "don't want to build a big pot on a coinflip" or whatever.

Am I totally off base here? Let me know if I am.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so he:

1)just calls, say, JJ UTG+1, likely fearing your UTG range;
2)raises your cbet into 3 people on a 9 high board because now he loves his hand vs your range a lot more.

okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've never seen this? Really?

Not everyone that plays MSNL 3-bets like its their job PF a la 2+2. Many people will smooth call those raises with QQ- because they "want to see if an ace or king flops so they can get out cheap." Is it optimal play? No, not usually, but it still happens. I'm not saying he can't have a set here, but I wouldn't be stunned if an unknown felted TT here either. If his impression is that hero will c-bet into a four player field with an AK that misses, then raising JJ might make a lot of sense to him. People love overpairs.

Just because people don't repop PF with TT-QQ doesn't mean they're playing it exclusively for set value and certainly doesn't mean that they are all passive postflop on a dry board. They "don't want to build a big pot on a coinflip" or whatever.

Am I totally off base here? Let me know if I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think you're off base at all, people assume that other players are 2+2'er way too often. I still think it's a fold though

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Many people will smooth call those raises with QQ- because they "want to see if an ace or king flops so they can get out cheap." Is it optimal play? No, not usually, but it still happens.

Just because people don't repop PF with TT-QQ doesn't mean they're playing it exclusively for set value and certainly doesn't mean that they are all passive postflop on a dry board. They "don't want to build a big pot on a coinflip" or whatever.

Am I totally off base here? Let me know if I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you're off-base that it happens but your why is way screwed up...

Basically OP has a bunch of people all calling him an idiot if he doesn't fold, call, or shove. After that, they're all calling each other idiots for advocating whichever of the two they're not advocating.

As such, I guess I'll be the first (?) to say "Who cares what you do, it's probably about as EV neutral as anything else you do, so flip a coin and pick one", and run for my flame retardant suit since I'm about to get it from all three...

- C -

Re: KK on dry flop
 

at first i thought shove, then thinking about it it's probably fold. But [censored], who knows. he's unknown so he can have lots of weird crap. However, i don't see how call is even an option unless you intend on folding one of the later streets.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

I can't believe people think 2 players to act behind is such a deciding factor in this being a fold.

Maybe I play with too many unknown donkeys.

Re: KK on dry flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
shove

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KK on dry flop
 

75% shove 25% call with plan to get it in on most turns, given this is an unknown.

unless it was your first hand at the table, you should be able to have a better read on the villain and i would have to know his stats to give you better advice. some players only do this when they have the goods (set) and some do it with draws/any pair/random/top pair just to see where they stand and try to take pot down.

there are some players that I will call once and then fold to because they would never get AI with A9 or TT or something, but for the most part, you have to like your hand here.

there shouldn't be one correct play as it is almost never correct to play a hand the same way all the time so for people who just say shove, call, or fold, you shoudl really think about mixing up your play and expanding your game.

tc

edit: something i shoudl stress is you should know more about villain. but for 1 BI i'm not folding KK here to an unknown, it's just not good poker given you are splashing around at least a little bit.

there are lots of players that i dont even think twice about folding to, just not unknowns for one buyin.