How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

Live 20/40.

Reads:

SB: a bit too loose, a bit too aggro PF, makes bad post-flop mistakes, doesn't think clearly
BB: very loose donk, chases hopelessly
limper 1: loose-passive fish
limper 2: loose-passive fish
Button: never played with him before, and he's been involved in the fewest pots at the table. He's older, quiet, and conservative, and my read is ROCK tight, reserving the option to change once I see more of him. However, the only major pot I've seen him show down is when he raised PF and got involved in some raising and betting and then calling on a board of (773)(x)(x) against the BB who held 73. Rocky turned over AA and shrugged.

On to the hand...

2 Limpers limp, I pick up KTo in the CO. I decide to limp along because a) raising will do virtually nothing, since button is likely to fold anyway, blinds will rarely fold, and bloating the pot with this hand isn't wise; and b) KT is a bit too much hand in this spot to fold since I'll likely have the button against 4 bad players.

Well, the button finally plays a pot, and limps behind me. The SB raises, we all call. 6 to the flop for 12 SBs.

Flop comes out K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I have no heart.

SB bets, BB calls, limpers fold, I decide to call and raise many turn cards. Button calls.

Turn is the 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB checks, I bet, Button raises, blinds fold. I think and call.

River is the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I check, Button bets, I fold.

Let me have it.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

Please fold the turn.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

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Please fold the turn.

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Remember that I'm getting 11:1 immediate to call the turn with the possibility that he's raising for a free showdown.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

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Remember that I'm getting 11:1 immediate to call the turn with the possibility that he's raising for a free showdown.

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Assuming you've got an accurate read, I kinda like this thought. A lot of these older, nitty players check the river through unless they are sure they've got it.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

What about(1)raising the flop,&(2)calling the river?

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

The man probably does not have KJs, K5s or J5s or he would have raised the flop.His most likely holding is K7s.But KTs,K9s,K8s is a possibilty.But you have never played with him before.I might fold this against some rocks I know.But in this case I think you have to call the river getting 13-1.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

Well you could fold preflop, as KTo plays so poorly in many situations, especially multiway. This is a raise or fold situation, IMO, and I lean to a fold. (Have you gotten looser? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]).

On the flop, your call is acceptable as there is only the button still to act. I'd fold the turn raise, trusting your read on the button. Save a bet.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

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Flop comes out K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I have no heart.

SB bets, BB calls, limpers fold, I decide to call and raise many turn cards.

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Raise. There's no guarantee you'll get bet into on the turn, and there are enough scare and semi-scare cards that can fall off that you should raise now. Not to mention (at risk of sounding results-driven), you might knock villain off a "drawing-to-two-pair" type hand and buy the button at the same time.

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Button calls.

Turn is the 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB checks, I bet, Button raises, blinds fold. I think and call.

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Button could have picked up a double gutshot with T9 or hold hearts (including several combinations that turned a gutshot to go with their flush draw), semibluffing in either case; in addition, because of the passive way you've played the hand, he can hold a hand similar to yours (KT or K9s)or even a Jack and be raising what he thinks is the best hand; or he can have you beat with a variety of stuff (J7s, a set, KJ, etc). Calling here is good, in that folding is terrible (the only hands you really dislike being a better King and a set).

Edit: Raising to punish a semi-bluff is also better than folding, though based on the AA vs. 73 scenario you described earlier that, I doubt that you'll induce a fold from a hand that has you beat, so I would be apt to call here. [Note: If anybody has thoughts on whether this is too timid on my part, I'd love to hear 'em. Thanks guys.]

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River is the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I check, Button bets, I fold.

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Your hesitation on the turn call (followed by your courageous river-check [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]) is going to cause a bluff here with everything from 23 up - maybe even a value bet from a Jack.

To summarize, you've induced the bluff, the hearts have missed (though the double-gut did get there) and now you're folding. Absent a read you didn't share in your post - and probably even with one - this is a disastrous fold, easily your worst decision during the hand.

Best regards,
Jogger

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

assuming a raise does not mean KJ for sure, you have to call, although this smells like 77 or even 55. It's really thin if you're not hopign he has KT, K9 or 75, K5, J5 you get the point.

It all depends on your read really and I'm not sure what advice anyoen can offer.

Folding KTo preflop in a 6 handed game where people give action would be a big lol.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

Out of curiosity, how do you guys get KJ and set as villain's most likely holdings here? KJ offsuit is a dubious call preflop (as is suited: villain ought to raise this instead), and nobody has shown any aggression till the turn, where suddenly hero steps out on a blank. Are you honestly saying you belive a solid player with position won't find a raise with AJ or better (or semi-bluff with a good draw) here?

I don't think hero has 80% pot equity or anything, but nothing about the play so far has my set-radar screaming red alert yet.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

"Remember that I'm getting 11:1 immediate to call the turn with the possibility that he's raising for a free showdown."

You pretty much need to leave raising the turn for a free showdown out of the potential arsenal of a live player until you see them pull it off.

-Michael

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

Call the river as played. Raising the flop would make the rest of the hand easier.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

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Button: never played with him before, and he's been involved in the fewest pots at the table. He's older, quiet, and conservative, and my read is ROCK tight, reserving the option to change once I see more of him. However, the only major pot I've seen him show down is when he raised PF and got involved in some raising and betting and then calling on a board of (773)(x)(x) against the BB who held 73. Rocky turned over AA and shrugged.

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the picture you paint indicates you are drawing dead pretty often on the turn - unless you're leaving something cool out in the bolded part.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

Button: and my read is ROCK tight,

Well, the button finally plays a pot, and limps behind me.


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i gotta start posting here, im gonna get back into this game, so doesnt the first line here say it all? if youre gonna bet that turn, and get raised by the tightest guy at the table, doesnt that define his hand that we are just about dead? with that many limpers, most of the players ive played with, albeit foxwoods, they will not raise much with that many limpers. then when he calls behind on the flop,i think hes waiting to see if another heart peels off, with the intention of calling down if the flush hits. you said nothing about his aggr. just that he was tight. im seeing possibly JJ or 55 here, but KJ doesnt seem too far off, but being that the guy is as tight as you say, i dont think 11-1 is going to matter. if hes raising the turn, hes betting the river so i dont see a free showdown here, ever.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

I think you have to raise the flop, as SB could be bluffing a draw there and will just check to you on the turn regardless of the action. That seems to be the critical point where the hand went afoul.

also, maybe this is a live play thing but I can't remember the last time I saw a rock make a free showdown raise with middle pair on the turn. Its true that he should raise a wide range there to shut out the blinds once you bet into him, but that should be good for both of you. I'd look him up or fold the turn.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

preflop: i think its fine...meh whatever...
flop: my norm is to raise, but i think calling is fine, in a big pot like this getting button to fold QJs is fine...
turn: i would muck this...the only hand you are really drawing ive against from a ROCK is AK and he most likely raises the flop with it, i suppose we are drawing live against 75s but that might not be in buttons range here...i think you are gonna get shown JJ/77/KJ here way too often to profitably call here...you also have to reduce your T outs since the T of hearts is dirty...
river: perfecto [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

and like lmd said, i don't really factor in free showdown raises unless i have more history with a person...

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

Preflop - I do the same, I hate getting re-raised with KTo.
Flop - Must raise to try to get button out and gain position... Once he cold calls 2 bets, the turn fold to his raise is easy. Also, he may fold K7s or 77 here (or other 2 or 3 out hands)...
Turn - I am folding almost always unless he has shown tricky aggressive turn play before (with draws or middle pair big kicker).
River - You saved a BB, IMO.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

Joker --

Preflop fine.

I like the flop play and think that results are coloring people's assessment of it. All the usual reasons.

Folding this turn seems bad to me. 11-1, everyone. And also, if Button is trying to read hands he could easily think that some one-pair hand -- even occasionally a worse hand -- is best often enough to fight for it. I know, I know, we're supposed to have a read here, but the point is that (a) I've played with tons of these old guys and sometimes they overvalue hands once they finally arthritically sprinkle some chips into the pot, and sometimes they -- gasp -- play well, and either one of these makes the turn an easy call, and more importantly even a small % that he fits either of these profiles swings this to a call. Do the numbers. He's getting 11-1.

The river is like any other river decision in limit hold'em. Wish I could tell you more. I'm folding this more and more these days but depending on exactly how the action in the AA hand went down, and any other element of the vibe, I can't blame you for calling.

BTW, whoever said that K7s is his most likely hand... it's not.

Anyway, Joker, the river decision might be slightly wrong but you didn't butcher this one.

--Nate

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

I think you are looking at 12:1 pot odds and you likely need to hit your kicker to win (3 outs) about half the time (1.5 outs). Maybe a King would be good? At least one may be dead. Let's say 2 outs good half the time = 1 out. 2.5 outs total you need about 20:1 pot odds

So fold the turn!

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

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he's raising for a free showdown.

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Very few people raise for a FSD. Less live. Old rocks, well, I don't want to say never but I haven't seen it yet.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

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Please fold the turn.

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Remember that I'm getting 11:1 immediate to call the turn with the possibility that he's raising for a free showdown.

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None of the people I would call a rock has ever raised for a free showdown. They have always had me drawing dead when some other poor soul has been in the pot and made it to showdown so that I got to see their hand when the action goes anything like this. If you want to be generous you can add AK or KQs to his range of hands, not just sets, so while you have outs, you certainly do not have enough to call.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

Remember that when you bet the turn,you don't look like a K since you didn't raise the flop.He could be raising the turn with a weaker hand.I would not fold the turn.I would just call down.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

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Flop comes out K J 5. I have no heart.

SB bets, BB calls, limpers fold, I decide to call and raise many turn cards. Button calls.


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i've always been a big advocate against this line in this spot for two reasons.

a) what is the likelyhood of him betting again into the field on the turn with a hand you beat? too often when you raise "most good cards" you are going to be raising with the worse hand in this spot against a lot of players.

combined that with
b) hope to knock out the button and gain position in the hand.

that says as played i would fold to the turn raise given your description of him. people raising for free showdowns online was overblown imo and it is almost non-existent in live games vs old gentlemen rocks.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

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Please fold the turn.

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Remember that I'm getting 11:1 immediate to call the turn with the possibility that he's raising for a free showdown.

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None of the people I would call a rock has ever raised for a free showdown. They have always had me drawing dead when some other poor soul has been in the pot and made it to showdown so that I got to see their hand when the action goes anything like this. If you want to be generous you can add AK or KQs to his range of hands, not just sets, so while you have outs, you certainly do not have enough to call.

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We have what all of the regulars consider as "The Roc" in our local games. He not only would raise for the free showdown, but occassionally open/raises UTG with 98s, 55 and plays them like they were aces. And then, when he takes the pot after everyone who dared to challenge him at the beginning, mucks, shows, getting more action in the future.

Profitable Rocs cannot play ABC Poker, as they would go broke, or bore themselves to death making 1/2 BB per 1 1/2 hrs [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

I know a Roc that plays like that, but not any rocks.

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

In the california games i play, which are the same ones joker plays, raising for a free showdown in this situation is common. i.e., the only one who has bet/raised pre-flop and flop checks the turn. So fighting for this large pot via a protection raise/free showdown raise is common.

PITS

Re: How many ways did I butcher KT?
 

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In the california games i play, which are the same ones joker plays, raising for a free showdown in this situation is common. i.e., the only one who has bet/raised pre-flop and flop checks the turn. So fighting for this large pot via a protection raise/free showdown raise is common.

PITS

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the situation u described is not at all like the hand joker posted and it is not at all common from the type of player joker described. i would never really argue against somebody who made a gut feel play live vs a specific player, but just from what i am being told this isn't the guy who would do that.