Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.15/$0.30
8 players

hand converter

UTG is sTAA (22/5.5/9), SB typical fish (82/3/0.6)

Pre-flop: (8 players) hero is MP2 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls,<font color="red"> hero calls</font>, 2 folds, SB calls, BB checks.


Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5SB, 5 players)

SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP1 calls, <font color="red">hero calls</font>, SB calls, BB folds.


Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 4 players)

SB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks,<font color="red"> hero bets</font>, SB calls, UTG raises, MP1 folds,<font color="red"> hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, UTG caps,<font color="red"> hero calls</font>, SB calls.


River: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (16.5BB, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets,<font color="red"> hero calls</font>, SB calls.

Edited by AussieBattler to remove result and hence bias in responses.

Results:
Final pot: 19.5BB

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

grunch

raise with A on the flop, call the 2bet on the turn. call river

don't post results

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

Hi Guitierez, welcome to the forums. good stuff on getting the converter right and posting reads. As a moderator i took the liberty of quickly editing your post to remove the your opponents cards. this is because once we know the responses it can tend to bias some responses. cheers. Aussie.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

Hi Guitierez


I think I played a few hands with you on Stars last night. PT thinks you're a 'good player', so respec'!

*learner grunch*

I would just call the check-raise on the turn, but the other streets seem ok.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

I don't like 3betting the turn.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

"grunch"

I see no reason to raise on the turn. You still only have top pair/worse kicker. With one card to come you're approx. 5-1 to make the flush and you're not gonna get anywhere near the pot odds for that with a raise, plus the risk of the reraise. While villian is aggressive, he's also tight so he probably has something. I'd go to the showdown but until I hit the flush, I would go as cheap as possible with the 2 kicker.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

Well I saw UTG's hand before Aussie removed it, so I'll try my best to ignore forbidden knowledge...

Raise the flop. It's a weak made hand with potential to improve in a few different ways. So raise for free cards.

Call UTG's turn raise. UTG's AF is huge-- I'm guessing your stats aren't over many hands. In any case he's reasonably tag, and the checkraise tells you he really likes his hand, and that he likes his hand IN SPITE OF THE A ON BOARD. So I think it's safe to say he's got two pair or better. You have a nice draw but after MP1 folds you're playing three-handed. Your draw only gives you about 25% pot equity (that's a fast guess) and so you're at a disadvantage. If you had 4 or more opponents you could profitably raise the turn, but against only 2 you must call.

Something else to notice here is that UTG checked to MP1 and you, with the intention of raising. That's weird because neither of you showed any aggression. But apparently he was pretty sure one of you was going to bet. So I'm guessing UTG has a pretty good read on either you or MP1.

The river is a fold.

from one newbie to another, welcome!

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like 3betting the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more.

As played fold the river. You're never good here, IMO.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

Just call the c/r on the turn.
Even w/ the pot 17.5:1 on the river, we are good here MAYBE 0.05%, and I fold it. One of them can beat TPWK!! UTG has a big hand here, like always. I'd bet a good portion of my BR that SB has you beat also!

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

raise the flop to get rid of the blinds - plays different after that

as played just call turn raise and fold river

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

welceom to the forums.

and good on you for posting a good 'learning' hand.

flop and PF play are fine.

turn play is catastrophically wrong. maybe i'm missing something, but this looks diabolical to me.

the card that completes your nut flush is 4.2:1 against coming in. basic pot odds dictate that you should only be calling or betting such that you're getting better than 4.2:1 for your wager.

the way you played the turn resulted in you contributing about 25% of the pot (ie about 4BB of a 16BB pot). You're only winning it 20% of the time. This is an error.

also, you can't cant on 3 players coming along for the ride like this. usually aggressive betting knocks players out. this means you pay more like 40% of the pot, making it an even worse mistake if your flush draw only comes through 20% of the time.

so good job flop and PF, but please please please don't play your flush draws like this on the turn in the future. see my post (pg 3 of the forums i think) or any of numerous other better sources if you want more detail.

but for your own sake, don't ever do this again.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

*grunch*

I'm cool with the play up until the turn 3-bet. You have plenty of outs to call here, but I don't think you have the pot equity to be raising, even if you know SB is coming along. UTG is telling you he has a very strong hand with his c/r.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop to get rid of the blinds - plays different after that

[/ QUOTE ]

Which 5-out draws are we trying to protect from?

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

Welcome!!!

I think you are balanced precariously between calling and folding this hand preflop. I would usually fold it depending on the table and the situation. (But I play too tight sometimes)

I think you have to raise the flop. Even though you are hesitant because you have no kicker, you need to push this and see what pushes back. Call a three bet but not a cap IMO

This turn would have played differently if you raise the flop but as played: You have 12 solid outs (flush and straight) A outs have some value but discounted a lot I think. And finally, since it is 2 to you, we have to think we are behind. So we have pot odds to call but I doubt if we should raise. The raise isn't going to make anybody go away and might get capped while we are behind. I call 2 here and hope it stays at two. If raised, and even if capped we have to call with nut flush draw on the unpaired board.

River card is awful. I don't really know whether to call or fold this. I think we are behind most of the time but at 18+:1 pot odds SB has been calling down so do we win here one in 19 or 20 times? Maybe with these players we do. It probably isn't very much +/- EV whether you fold or call. SO: I make a crying (and possibly incorrect) call because of pot size.

Again welcome, look forward to hearing more from you.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

1. raise this flop. You have TPNK, but a backdoor flush and straight draw and 5 outs to two pair or better(some of the ace outs might not be good, but might be chop outs). You will protect your hand from people calling with mid-bottom pair.

2. The turn is too aggressive. You have good equity, but generally raising with draws on the turn is wrong.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You will protect your hand from people calling with mid-bottom pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I know what a mid-bottom pair is, but I don't think they have the outs to call even for one bet... unless they have a decent BDFD.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You will protect your hand from people calling with mid-bottom pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I know what a mid-bottom pair is, but I don't think they have the outs to call even for one bet... unless they have a decent BDFD.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, mid or bottom pair. If you call the people behind you will be getting 8:1, enough to peel with a pair and 5 outs to improve. Raise

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You will protect your hand from people calling with mid-bottom pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I know what a mid-bottom pair is, but I don't think they have the outs to call even for one bet... unless they have a decent BDFD.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, mid or bottom pair. If you call the people behind you will be getting 8:1, enough to peel with a pair and 5 outs to improve. Raise

[/ QUOTE ]

So mid or bottom pair doesn't have to discount any outs?

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

*grunch*

Slightly tight, I like it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Standard pre-flop.

Flop: We aren't quite getting the pot odds we need to draw to 3-outs to two pair and a backdoor flush draw, but if the big blind is passive and might pad the pot without raising, then I could see letting one slide off here.

Turn: You picked up your flush draw. Take the free card. Somebody probably has another ace, and my friend, they are all better than yours. When UTG check-raises, it sends off an alarm bell in my head. I think our equity here is a little less than 33%, so I just call the turn check-raise.

River: Sadly, I fold here. UTG is highly unlikely to check-raise with a hand that we beat on the turn, and we can beat almost nothing here. Of course, in my version of how the hand would have played, the pot would be much smaller.

Before calling a river bet, ask yourself the following question:

What could my opponent bet with that I could beat?

Also, realize the the small blind is still in the hand, and the villian proabably expects him to call. That's what he does. He calls. He's a calling station. For all intents and purposes, this pot is protected.

If a person knows they are going to be called, then it's a safe bet that they aren't bluffing.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

Thank you all for the warm welcome and the advice which I appreciate very much.
Indeed it was a mistake to 3bet the c/r on turn, maybe too much optimism about my 12 outs, maybe just steaming of being pushed around before by vilain....I could have saved the river bet considering that SB would call anyways and I'd seen what have me beat. Incredibly he was calling down with low pair/no kicker.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

Everyone is saying raise this flop after UTG bets out &amp; MP1 calls? I don't think raising is correct, I'm leaning towards a fold if I'm playing I just want to call and see what happens on the turn.

Please berate me for being weak/tight.

Re: Straight flush draw too aggressive?
 

I would check and call on the turn, and fold the river. I'm not sure what the point of 3 betting the turn is here. You have a weak made hand and a draw with one card left to come.