KTo from the Btn
 

It's the usual loose-passive crowd.

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5SB, 5 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds, Hero ???

calls or raises?

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

Mr. Variety says "Just don't fold."

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

Call, a raise accomplishes very little are you are very likely to have a good flush draw. I would raise an Ace here but you do not want to give away money to a made flush or to the ace of spades if it is in one of the hands.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

Raise.
You got 2nd nut flush draw, 1 overcard and a backdoor straight draw.
It's very likely that all 3 opponents call the raise and that's why you should consider exploiting your pot equity edge by raising.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

But don't I want to get a free card?

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

damn. i like raising but this will cause villains to fold correctly unless they have the AX[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in which case they'll raise correctly.
but then again, they make loads of mistakes so maybe you're not afraid of some correct play from them.

i say raise. if you get 3bet, call down or fold the turn UI.

k-high flush doesn't lose to A-high flush very often, so don't get too scared.

but i'm not entirely sure what to do here. giving poker advice is hard.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
damn. i like raising but this will cause villains to fold correctly unless they have the X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in which case they'll raise correctly.
but then again, they make loads of mistakes so maybe you're not afraid of some correct play from them.

i say raise. if you get 3bet, call down or fold the turn UI.

k-high flush doesn't lose to A-high flush very often, so don't get too scared.

but i'm not entirely sure what to do here. giving poker advice is hard.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP.
If you land your flush, the board will be 4-flush, it'll be even more obvious than it already is that some one might have a flush, and you might not make many bets. The question is if you want to build your pot up now or wait until you have it. That's a bit more complicated. I'll leave the answer to some one else.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

yeah, marty, no one's folding nothing here. Have you never seen people call down against major aggression on this board just to sheepishly turn over their 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] vs. top two sets?

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, marty, no one's folding nothing here. Have you never seen people call down against major aggression on this board just to sheepishly turn over their 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] vs. top two sets?

[/ QUOTE ]

tbh, i've not been in the position OP is about.

i've seen lots of hadns where people fold round when the board is mono-suit.

but i have also seen people go for nice chases with weak flushes as you say. i see what you mean. any suited card isn't going to fold here. probably by the same logic that you're not folding in fear of the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

I raise this every time.

- there are 3 opponents who have already put in one bet each. You make your flush 1/3 of the time so even though you don't have the A you probably still like for this flop to get capped as long as nobody folds.

- You may get offered a free card on the turn if you raise. Sometimes you will take it (e.g. turn is a non-spade A) and sometimes you will bet (turn is a king).

- The raise disguises your draw a little bit. Opponents who do think but don't know about things such as pot equity will rather put you on something like QJ then a draw.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

I like a raise on the flop. BB and UTG seem to want to call along paddding the pot in the middle, so they'll probably put in some more. A free card would be nice too.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

no one has said to raise preflop, so i will say it:

raise preflop!

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

raises for free card

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
no one has said to raise preflop, so i will say it:

raise preflop!

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this 100% for sure? Pokertracker says I win with KTo 30% of the time from the from the button. So I'd have a slight advantage if BB and/or SB called the raise, but I'd be at a disadvantage if both blinds folded, as far as pot equity goes. If I just called, then I'd have a clear pot equity edge into the flop, plus I saved a SB to use for a free card play if I flop a draw. Seems about break even to raise preflop, or am I missing something?

I think raising the flop here is definitely correct. There are probably a couple spades out already, but the overcard and bdsd make up for that. Your pot equity is over 30% easy and the great thing is that you know everyone is going to call your raise.

On a side note, over the past couple months, I've noticed a lot of otherwise never-bluff LP players make bluffs on paired and 1-suited flops, especially from EP. I was wondering if there was an article about it in highroller or some other mag, and now everyone's doing it. I'm sure it's a really high EV bluff for most LPs. Anyways, if I was playing this hand I think I'd be less worried about SB having spades and more worried about the callers.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

agreed with Tyler. raise preflop, raise flop, call down the turn and fold the river if you seriously miss.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this 100% for sure? Pokertracker says I win with KTo 30% of the time from the from the button. So I'd have a slight advantage if BB and/or SB called the raise, but I'd be at a disadvantage if both blinds folded, as far as pot equity goes. If I just called, then I'd have a clear pot equity edge into the flop, plus I saved a SB to use for a free card play if I flop a draw. Seems about break even to raise preflop, or am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, this is nonsense.

your PT winrate has nothing to do with your pot equity, and it is baffling to me how you could ever think they were related.

and then, yeah, it just gets weirder from there.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise this every time.

- there are 3 opponents who have already put in one bet each. You make your flush 1/3 of the time so even though you don't have the A you probably still like for this flop to get capped as long as nobody folds.

- You may get offered a free card on the turn if you raise. Sometimes you will take it (e.g. turn is a non-spade A) and sometimes you will bet (turn is a king).

- The raise disguises your draw a little bit. Opponents who do think but don't know about things such as pot equity will rather put you on something like QJ then a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if you get reraised and the other two fold out? Now your equity is out the window. By just calling you KNOW you're getting good equity on the bet.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is this 100% for sure? Pokertracker says I win with KTo 30% of the time from the from the button. So I'd have a slight advantage if BB and/or SB called the raise, but I'd be at a disadvantage if both blinds folded, as far as pot equity goes. If I just called, then I'd have a clear pot equity edge into the flop, plus I saved a SB to use for a free card play if I flop a draw. Seems about break even to raise preflop, or am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, this is nonsense.

your PT winrate has nothing to do with your pot equity, and it is baffling to me how you could ever think they were related.

and then, yeah, it just gets weirder from there.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hmm.... I guess I just found a (mental)leak?
I was thinking that I could use the winrate to estimate my share in the preflop pot. So in this case if I'm expecting to win 30% of the time, then I expect to get 30% of every bet that goes into the pot. So I would only raise if I knew there would be 3+ callers, otherwise I'd call.

If I spend a bet to raise preflop and only get 2 callers, then I'm not so happy because I'm only about 2:1 to win. So I can save that bet and possibly spend it on a flop raise instead if I have a bigger edge. Probably a bad way to put it-- I mean that I'd rather make the raise when I have a big edge than when I have a small/break even edge.

So obviously I'm thinking about this wrong... help?

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
no one has said to raise preflop, so i will say it:

raise preflop!

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I'd usually limp. You already own the button and there is an early position limper, so your edge isn't as large.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
damn. i like raising but this will cause villains to fold correctly unless they have the X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in which case they'll raise correctly.
but then again, they make loads of mistakes so maybe you're not afraid of some correct play from them.

i say raise. if you get 3bet, call down or fold the turn UI.

k-high flush doesn't lose to A-high flush very often, so don't get too scared.

but i'm not entirely sure what to do here. giving poker advice is hard.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP.
If you land your flush, the board will be 4-flush, it'll be even more obvious than it already is that some one might have a flush, and you might not make many bets. The question is if you want to build your pot up now or wait until you have it. That's a bit more complicated. I'll leave the answer to some one else.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one correctly folds anything even if you raise. That said, you should raise. You own a little less than 35%, but certainly more than your share of 25%. You also don't need implied odds to make this a good raise... so your not overly worried if you can "make many bets" or not.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no one has said to raise preflop, so i will say it:

raise preflop!

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I'd usually limp. You already own the button and there is an early position limper, so your edge isn't as large.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there any reasonable edge at all? I was under the impression that KTo is more or less premium trash, not to be played unless from the Btn or CO and never in a raised pot.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no one has said to raise preflop, so i will say it:

raise preflop!

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I'd usually limp. You already own the button and there is an early position limper, so your edge isn't as large.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there any reasonable edge at all? I was under the impression that KTo is more or less premium trash, not to be played unless from the Btn or CO and never in a raised pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the players in the pot are pretty bad (will call down any pair bad), then you have a playing edge over them with position and two broadway cards (it's even larger if a preflop raise means they will check it to you, and your edge grows as the blinds get tighter).

Calling it premium trash is an overstatement. It's a weak broadway combination and it's definitely playable in position in a limped pot.

I would raise to isolate a single bad late position limper if the blinds are willing to cooperate.

I would also openraise from about 2 off the button (full ring), depending on the tightness and postflop skill of the blinds. In 6-max, I'd rather wait until the CO to raise because the blinds are looser and more aggressive.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

overlimp pf, raise flop

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no one has said to raise preflop, so i will say it:

raise preflop!

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I'd usually limp. You already own the button and there is an early position limper, so your edge isn't as large.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you want to discourage overlimpers?

Oh, and Hero raises!!!

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
but certainly more than your share of 25%

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it OP's share of 20%?

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

Call. Eight spades give you a decent flush, and one spade gives you the nut flush. You are closing the action, and getting 9-1. Call.

Edit:
Getting 3-bet here with K high sucks. There is also the (remote) possibility of someone having a straight flush draw with a small suited connector. There's no way I fold, but I'm not so hot about a raise.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no one has said to raise preflop, so i will say it:

raise preflop!

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I'd usually limp. You already own the button and there is an early position limper, so your edge isn't as large.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you want to discourage overlimpers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. With two limpers, my chances of taking this pot down without showdown have decreased tremendously, so limping from the button allows SB and BB to come in with hands that might find enough reason to call down my value bets.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

I raise this 100% of the time. If it gets 3 bet and all tag along, I would cap it. Someone with a set or 2 pair could be trying to make it expensive (correctly) to draw to the flush. You also argue that well, if they have 2 pair or a set, then our equity is diminished, but the dead money the other two players are contributing make up for that.

Re: KTo from the Btn
 

Ok everyone, the majority was for raise on the flop, and I agree. So I raised, everyone just called. Turn was a brick and unfortunately SB chose to bet again. Called, river didn't help and folded.

I'll be sure to look out for pfr opportunities from now on!