Weird Live Ethics Question
 

This came up a few months ago. 10-20 NL at Bellagio. I raise JQs in CO, tight asian guy who speaks no english (trust me, i'm not making this up) reraises (amounts don't matter). Flop comes down TTJ and it goes check/check. Turn 7 and he c/calls 300. River 2 and he c/calls 900. I flip my hand over and he disappointingly shows his hand to the guy sitting next to him and flings his cards into the muck.

The second he does this, the guy beside him, whom I've seen around the Bellagio from time to time and seems like some regular oldish Greek fish with slicked hair, practically jumps out of his chair. He starts shouting "why did you fold that?!? he had aces!" (which by the way made me feel a lot less proud of my thin value bet). So the guy keeps insisting that the asian guy must have misread the board and keeps asking him why he folded but the asian guy doesn't understand what's going on. for the next 10 minutes other guy won't stop talking about it.

So, here's the situation: I have no reason to doubt this other guy's story, I sincerely doubt they're in cahoots together. What should I do? Give him the pot? Give him half? Say screw it and give him nothing?

Re: Weird Live Ethics Question
 

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Say screw it and give him nothing

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Say screw it and give him nothing

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Not sure why there would be any question here. Misreading the board/action is the same as any other mistake you can make while playing poker. Obviously I'd never give him anything back.

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Screw him, if he doesn't see it he doesn;t deserve it. People in vegas are not gonna give u money back in the same spot and actually are hoping u would make mistakes like that.

He mucked his hand therefore it dead and I'd say u made the sickest valuebet in history.

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don't give him anything, but the guy yelling about how he mucked the best hand is a giant tool and definitely shouldn't be saying anything.

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Say screw it and give him nothing

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its part of live play.. i dont feel bad about these kind of things ever and thats not b/c im a heartless jerk, its the players responsibility and nobody else's to make sure his hand is good.

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Ok so to put a little twist on it. Say you are the person sitting next to the player about to muck AA there. He says something along the lines of 'I can't believe they didn't hold up again', shows you the AA and waits a second or two to actually muck his hand. You have the time to tell him his hand is good before he throws it away. Do you?

Re: Weird Live Ethics Question
 

I was in a similar situation in a live self-deal game at The Vic in London.

I was dealing, and the player in question was to my right, with his opponent to his right.

After his opponent showed he held his cards open while trying to read the board. In an effort to speed up the game I read the hands and he won the pot.

This created the argument that his hand was not in showdown because it wasn't flat on the table. I have since checked that this is correct according to there rules, so I shouldn't have said anything.

It also creates a nice clear cut answer to your situation, if the cards are face up on the table everyone (including in dealer-dealt games) has a duty to point out the best hand, if they haven't been released no-one is allowed to say anything.

This created a few other discussions about whether his hand, shown to a few people, might therefore be killed, or would it be forced to showdown on a show-one show all principle?

If the guy who said something caused the guy to succesfully show down his aces when he otherwise wouldn't have done, that is a bigger ethics violation, the first guy is also wrng to show anyone his hand before showing down or mucking, so you easily have the high ground here if you manage to take the pot.

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You know, honestly, while you might be ethically "correct" in keeping the pot b/c the other guy is not very bright and can't read his own [censored] hand, given that there's more to life than the thousand bucks you get out of this deal I'd probably just make the side deal with him and chop the pot and give him half. Can you justify yourself over and over in keeping the pot? - yeah, totally. Is is really worth the nagging doubt in your mind asking you whether the price of your integrity is worth exactly the size of that pot? - No, in your case it's not. [censored] it, give him half and move on, the amount of money involved is not anywhere near worth your peace of mind here.

Kirk

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You have a good heart FF. I think I would chop it too.

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if you actually saw hand recovered from muck then maybe give some back, just based on word definitely shouldn't. he probably did have AA in this case, but he could've had 44 or A4, you can't be sure

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Dude, giving a guy money back because he can't read the board is like giving a guy money back because he played a hand horribly and got stacked. It's not your fault that he can't read the board, which is an incredibly vital poker skill.

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Say screw it and give him nothing

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Dude, giving a guy money back because he can't read the board is like giving a guy money back because he played a hand horribly and got stacked. It's not your fault that he can't read the board, which is an incredibly vital poker skill.

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No way do you give the money back! I agree with the others...if he played his hand badly would you give his money back? He either thought he was beat, was too tired to see what he had or was just not that smart. What you are supposed to do is flip your cards and take a minute to see what you have and what the other person has. The dealer...if given the opportunity, will let you know who won the hand. It's when people get cute and muck their hands out of anger or fling their cards towards or into the muck that they usually get into trouble. Keeping a cool head when playing is essential. This is not your fault and you should in no way feel bad about keeping the entire pot. JMHO

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Ok so to put a little twist on it. Say you are the person sitting next to the player about to muck AA there. He says something along the lines of 'I can't believe they didn't hold up again', shows you the AA and waits a second or two to actually muck his hand. You have the time to tell him his hand is good before he throws it away. Do you?

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Unless the guy tables his AA, any comment from another player would violate the "one player per hand" rule.

FF, while the guy may very well had AA and mucked, you don't know that 100% for sure unless you yourself see the hand. This type of situation just opens you up to angle shots later in the session.

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it's not really his fault he isn't that smart - dude can't even speak english... it's racist not to give his money back

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If you offer him part or a chop, you are agreeing that he did in fact with the hand in question.

I say this is iffy, but since he couldn't read his hand you keep the pot. As another poster said, if he plays bad and gets stacked you dont give him anything, this is just another small component of the game.

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Say screw it and give him nothing

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if you actually saw hand recovered from muck then maybe give some back, just based on word definitely shouldn't. he probably did have AA in this case, but he could've had 44 or A4, you can't be sure

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It's possible that the guy ranting about it misread the cards. Seems like someone made a mistake, but there is no compelling reason to assume it had to be the guy who folded.

The only ethics question in this story is on the part of the guy ranting for 10 minutes. But that is clear cut: one player per hand. The guy playing the cards chose to fold them, so he loses the pot, by the letter of the rules. But is there some higher ethical rule that should compel the ranter to speak up? (I'm not really asking; I personally do not play another persons hand for them, even in this situation).

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Since he speaks no english if you gave him half he would have no clue why you are giving him 500 dollars

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it's not really his fault he isn't that smart - dude can't even speak english... it's racist not to give his money back

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Exactly.
If I was playing poker in China, and misread the board, the fact that I can't speak chinese would have nothing to do with it.
If he misread the board he doesn't deserve the pot.

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give him nothing now, but send a hooker to his room later?

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Dude, giving a guy money back because he can't read the board is like giving a guy money back because he played a hand horribly and got stacked. It's not your fault that he can't read the board, which is an incredibly vital poker skill.

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As Canada Bill Jones said, "It's immoral to let a sucker keep his money."

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if he can't speak english and doesn't understand the rules of poker WTF is he doing at a poker table?

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if he can't speak english and doesn't understand the rules of poker WTF is he doing at a poker table?

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losing money that he's probably not seeing again to foxwoodsfiend

RESULTS
 

I didn't give him any money back because the thought honestly didn't cross my mind. About 20 minutes later other guy mentions I should (he wouldn't shut up and was very annoying) and I blew off the suggestion because I was so fed up with this guy complaining about something that didn't involve him. But the more I think about it the more I think kirkrr's thoughts are probably right on and that if I could go back I'd give him half the pot.

Re: RESULTS
 

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I didn't give him any money back because the thought honestly didn't cross my mind. About 20 minutes later other guy mentions I should (he wouldn't shut up and was very annoying) and I blew off the suggestion because I was so fed up with this guy complaining about something that didn't involve him. But the more I think about it the more I think kirkrr's thoughts are probably right on and that if I could go back I'd give him half the pot.

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Based on your recounting of the situation I am still quite unsure that the guy had AA.

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Dude, giving a guy money back because he can't read the board is like giving a guy money back because he played a hand horribly and got stacked. It's not your fault that he can't read the board, which is an incredibly vital poker skill.

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cards hit the muck...what am i missing??

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FF,

Here are some reasons to not give him any money that I don’t think have been mentioned yet.

The guy making all the noise might be making it up just because people are goofy and they do stuff like that. And it’s the guys who are willing to just say the same thing over and over are the ones most likely to just make it up in the first place. I’ve seen this before. Come to think of it I think I might have done it.

The fact that your opponent doesn’t speak English matters. It means your intent -- to be a good dude and do what you consider to be the right thing -- might be impossible to convey, partly because your opponent might not even fathom the possibility of such a generous act. I would think of this as a variable to weigh in: What is the probability (because of the language barrier) that you would get the feel-good feeling you’re after?

But here’s the main reason to not give him anything. Unless you give it to him out of your pocket, you are breaking one of the rules that is just as black-and-white, and as essential, as the one-player-to-a-hand rule. You are not allowed to reduce your stack, even if you give the money to another player. So, if there is no chance in your mind that you would actually come out of pocket to give your opponent some money, then you are saved from second guessing. You definitely did the right thing by not giving him any money because you would have had to break one the great rules to do it.

Tommy

Re: Weird Live Ethics Question
 

Maybe I'm being a bit of a jerk here, but this situation isn't much different than any other mucked winning cards situation. If he can't read the numbers/letters on the board well enough, then he shouldn't be sitting down at the table in the first place. Nobody forced him there, and if he's playing the game he has to play by the same rules as everybody else does.

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On top of what tommy said you need to realise thatif this happened to you there is no chance you would be getting any money. Even from the jerk who keeps talking about it. The guy couldve just been saying all that to tilt you anyways.

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On top of what tommy said you need to realise thatif this happened to you there is no chance you would be getting any money.

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This doesn't really rsonate with me. If giving him $$$ back is the right/appropriate thing to do the fact that other people are jerks that don't do it doesn't suddenly abrogate the responsibility to pay him back.

Re: RESULTS
 

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I didn't give him any money back because the thought honestly didn't cross my mind. About 20 minutes later other guy mentions I should (he wouldn't shut up and was very annoying) and I blew off the suggestion because I was so fed up with this guy complaining about something that didn't involve him. But the more I think about it the more I think kirkrr's thoughts are probably right on and that if I could go back I'd give him half the pot.

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It's an annoyance that some shmuck pointed out what he had....Good thing for you the guy didn't speak english and probably didn't understand. Giving the guy any portion of the pot would be nothing more than a charitable donation. I'm sure you can find a much more worthwhile cause than some probable rich asian guy. Think of how many starving African babies you could feed with that money.

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On top of what tommy said you need to realise thatif this happened to you there is no chance you would be getting any money.

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This doesn't really rsonate with me. If giving him $$$ back is the right/appropriate thing to do the fact that other people are jerks that don't do it doesn't suddenly abrogate the responsibility to pay him back.

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I agree to that sentiment in general, in this case though I don't think you have any responsibility in any form to pay him back and I was just trying to make you feel better [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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it's not your fault, there is no guarantee he had AA, the other guy could have just been bsing for some reason. Thus, I don't think you should do anything in this hand.

You should, though, in future hands with this opponent, ask to see his hand for the sake of integrity.

dlpnyc21

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You should, though, in future hands with this opponent, ask to see his hand for the sake of integrity.

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99% of the time this would just slow down the game while seeming very dickish (asking to see a hand is a serious breach of etiquette and he'd probably just be confused and i'd have to explain myself to anyone at the table who asks)