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Poker is a game of accidents
I just feel like doing a bit of poker writing, there isn't a real goal here except to flush through some of my pretty basic thoughts:
Whether facing a three-bet, river bet, flop checkraise, whatever, both players in the hand have some idea of their opponents range, and an idea of their perceived range to their opponent. The perfect situation is one where you can accurately guess your opponents range, but your opponent's perception of your range is way off. The best players are one that are strong hand readers, and are ones whose opponents always "guess" wrong. In high stakes poker, your opponents are the same. The idea is to oscillate lines and betting frequencies so that if you are a tight player you are actually bluffing more than people expect--and if you are a loose player you actually show up with the goods more than people expect. The best players are usually described as 'murky modifier' tight/loose. Something like: "He is kinda tight usually" or "He's out of his mind loose but never when I look him up". No one has been more successful in the history of online poker than Aba. He is excellent at making reads in big pots, and is also excellent at making people guess wrong in the big pots. He generally works around a tight image, but will speed up or slow down and make you feel uncomfortable. GoG is the same way--the best players I've ever played seem to always work from a tight image. I think in the current state of online poker, you are able to get an opponent to be further off guessing your range/frequencies starting from a tight image. Prahlad (back in his online poker prime) was the example of the opposite approach. The beauty of high stakes poker is not only this constant deception which is required to be successful, but the fact that many people get rich by "accident". I use quotations because they are, in fact, trying to get rich, but they become successful doing something they don't understand. Imagine if I was trapped in a forest, and I was trying to make a fire. All day I hit sticks and rocks together and no spark came. Then one day as I went to get a drink, I farted and this one special plant combusted and within 10 seconds an acre of forest was burning. And from then on out, when I wanted fire, I'd just fart on this plant and say 'wow look how good i am at making fires!' Examples of this are endless. You saw a wave of players making catastrophic preflop 'mistakes', and then overcompensating with extremely aggressive postflop moves and the overall package was very devastating. You saw waves of players reraising a ridiculous range preflop (hello me) and being rewarded when people didn't play back nearly enough or whatever. I also see stuff like a player check raising top pair against me on the flop and then calling an all in--which from a poker theory standpoint is probably a big leak--unless of course the opponent is far moving in far too liberally on the flop. The thing is, I feel like lots of people do things well but on accident. While they think they are 'raising for information' or something, they are actually inducing a bluff from an overaggressive player who plays back too much at flop raises. Or while they think 35s is a good drawing hand and that is it reasonable to put in 15% of your chips preflop with it, they are actually applying pressure to a player that is not comfortable playing big pots with 'marginal' holdings. Etc. When the "right mistake" meets the perfect situation, a player gets rich by "accident". You get the point. These accidents are not always accidents, of course. But big money is involved with poker, and with money comes smarts. All of these examples of successful accidents are exploitable, and the brainpower that poker attracts can solve these problems. I, moreso than many other players, am guilty of not being dynamic enough in my style. I see players playing against me very well recently--and I struggle to break free from my 10-20 party bukkake style. I challenge everyone interested in improving to look at elements in their game that are evolutionary developments of successful accidents given a certain game condition, and as to whether they still belong in your game. If you look real closely, its the subtle, slightly tricky elements that make the Aba's of the world rich. As the games get tougher, there will be less and less successful accidents. -Jason |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
i think vanveen made a post in a thread about hallingol which said what you just said
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
Thank you very much. Brilliant post.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
Great post Jason.
I have encountered numerous players who i believe have been incredibly successful by "accident". For the most part it maddens me to no end. One example would be one of the very top SNG players back in the party days. He had an insane amount of sucess but if you tried to talk theory with him the reasons behind his plays made absolutely no sense. Obviously they were still good plays but for totally different reasons than he thought. Another example would be a guy I met early on in my college career. I was very excited to meet someone who was so into poker but after talking to him for a few minutes and hearing about "moving up to where they respect his raises" (seriously!) and such, it became really obvious that he did not understand very basic things about poker theory. Last I talked to him he was playing 200/400 on stars and he still thinks that ppl like sklanksy dont know what they are talking about. Anyways, i know stories like that werent really the point of this thread but i cant wait to hear others' thoughts on this topic. |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
ty good post.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
link? Hall was definitely a pioneer of preflop accidents.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
i have always admired ur way of thinking about the game strassa. enjoyable post.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
really good post
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
Jason,
You post really good and you apparently play very well. I have always enjoyed reading your post like this even if I couldn't fully comprehend them at the time. |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
Good post, I very much agree. I think a very similar post was made a while back in this forum, possibly by ZeeJustin?
I remember it basically said poker is extremely difficult to learn by trial and error because of the variance involved: in the short term, good plays can very often lose you money and bad ones can win it for you. The result was alot of people learning bad habits because they worked for them when they created their basic poker strategies. However, there were a select few who got very "lucky" and by trial and error learned mostly the right plays (regardless of the reasoning behind them) - those people became very successful even up through very high limits simply because they lucked out and learned alot of very important lessons early, simply by luck of the draw. |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
i don't think i ever read a strassa post that didn't really make me sit back and think, 'wow'. awesome stuff.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
genius, thanks a lot
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
[ QUOTE ]
Good post, I very much agree. I think a very similar post was made a while back in this forum, possibly by ZeeJustin? I remember it basically said poker is extremely difficult to learn by trial and error because of the variance involved: in the short term, good plays can very often lose you money and bad ones can win it for you. The result was alot of people learning bad habits because they worked for them when they created their basic poker strategies. However, there were a select few who got very "lucky" and by trial and error learned mostly the right plays (regardless of the reasoning behind them) - those people became very successful even up through very high limits simply because they lucked out and learned alot of very important lessons early, simply by luck of the draw. [/ QUOTE ] yea I was reminded of this too -- was also a good thread. nice post strassa |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
I found ZeeJustin's post, another very good post/thread, with several follow-ups:
How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
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I also see stuff like a player check raising top pair against me on the flop and then calling an all in [/ QUOTE ] hope thats not directed at me. btw good post. |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
Deleted cause I just found out where you go to school and it would be treasonous to say somthing positive about you.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
w/e ur a tourney donk.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
meh, I thought op was somewhat long-winded and masturbatory.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
I think poker is all about smoking pot and saying yeah that makes sense.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
i didn't find this post all that insightful.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
i like when you make these posts
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
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I think poker is all about smoking pot and saying yeah that makes sense. [/ QUOTE ] Are you mocking my approach? |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
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I think poker is all about smoking pot and saying yeah that makes sense. [/ QUOTE ] Sounds about right |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
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w/e ur a tourney donk. [/ QUOTE ] better than being a sit-and-go donk no? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
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meh, I thought op was somewhat long-winded and masturbatory. [/ QUOTE ] I agree. There is a tendency on 2p2 to declare any verbose 'meaning of life/poker'esque post by a super respected player as genius. Saw similar with Gigabet. |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
I think OP is making a point that the Prahlad Lag style has run its course. He made it profitable playing a style no one understood,comprehended or played for that matter at that time.
If you remember Phil Gordon in his Little Green Book coined the phrase "BOW" or Biggest Online Winner to Prahlad at the time. Saying the his style was simply "un-beatable" Now that everyone is employing this style, it makes most sense that the players that have great hand reading ability who use a tighter style will more and more exploit their opponents who play looser weaker holdings. |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
[ QUOTE ]
I think OP is making a point that the Prahlad Lag style has run its course. He made it profitable playing a style no one understood,comprehended or played for that matter at that time. If you remember Phil Gordon in his Little Green Book coined the phrase "BOW" or Biggest Online Winner to Prahlad at the time. Saying the his style was simply "un-beatable" Now that everyone is employing this style, it makes most sense that the players that have great hand reading ability who use a tighter style will more and more exploit their opponents who play looser weaker holdings. [/ QUOTE ] Has anyone really re-applied prahlads style? Guys like aba, jman, gog seem to play a more controlled and tag style. Are are other great examples besides prahlad in online play? |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
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Has anyone really re-applied prahlads style? Guys like aba, jman, gog seem to play a more controlled and tag style. [/ QUOTE ] they're all practicing avoidance |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
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I think in the current state of online poker, you are able to get an opponent to be further off guessing your range/frequencies starting from a tight image. Prahlad (back in his online poker prime) was the example of the opposite approach. [/ QUOTE ] i actually believe the opposite - that successfully controlling a Prahlad-like style is going to be the most profitable approach. some reasons being it's more prone to tilt people, opponents are unfamiliar with how to outthink a hyper aggro gameplan, you can pick up stacks in unorthodox spots that you wouldn't normally, and so on. curious as to why you believe this won't produce more profit (albeit more difficult to play it perfectly) than a seamlessly shifting TAG style. |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
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Now that everyone is employing this style, it makes most sense that the players that have great hand reading ability who use a tighter style will more and more exploit their opponents who play looser weaker holdings. [/ QUOTE ] actually, almost no one is employing the style as well as mahatma did when he wasn't tilting. simply being a 30/20 is not what he was doing. |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
I agree. There's only so many situations you can put your opponents in, when play TAG and almost always keeping bets under pot-sized. Obv. there's still lots of room for outplaying oppponents in terms of outleveling them, but if you are better, faster and more familiar with unusual bet-sizes, ranges and lines that's just another factor in which you have an advantage.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
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i didn't find this post all that insightful. [/ QUOTE ] i dunno i think the only semi-interesting tidbids are that i thing a tight player in the current state of online poker has the ability to be more deceptive and effective than an equally talented player playing loose. i prefaced the entier post with the fact that everything i was going to write was pretty basic... |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I think OP is making a point that the Prahlad Lag style has run its course. He made it profitable playing a style no one understood,comprehended or played for that matter at that time. If you remember Phil Gordon in his Little Green Book coined the phrase "BOW" or Biggest Online Winner to Prahlad at the time. Saying the his style was simply "un-beatable" Now that everyone is employing this style, it makes most sense that the players that have great hand reading ability who use a tighter style will more and more exploit their opponents who play looser weaker holdings. [/ QUOTE ] Has anyone really re-applied prahlads style? Guys like aba, jman, gog seem to play a more controlled and tag style. Are are other great examples besides prahlad in online play? [/ QUOTE ] Sharky obv. |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
durrr is similar
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
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[ QUOTE ] i didn't find this post all that insightful. [/ QUOTE ] i dunno i think the only semi-interesting tidbids are that i thing a tight player in the current state of online poker has the ability to be more deceptive and effective than an equally talented player playing loose. i prefaced the entier post with the fact that everything i was going to write was pretty basic... [/ QUOTE ]i only wrote that because the first few responses were "brilliant! great post!" etc and i was wondering which part of your post they were referring to. i thought the accidentally making the right play thing was pretty obvious. but the "murky modifier" thing you mentioned was something i never really thought about but realized was true. i thought about some of the best players i know and how i would describe their style and realized that i couldn't pin it down to a simplistic description. |
Re: Poker is a game of accidents
Sklansky said something short and sweet on a WPT episode, probably the one with all the poker authors: he said (something to the affect that) after TOP was published, a lot of good players came up to him and said, "I already do the things you describe in your book, I just didn't know *why* I was doing them."
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
screw the haters, good post jason.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
I don't understand the post after a quick read. I think it might be this though... playing TAG is the best way to play poker, since poker players are tougher nowadays it's harder to get away mixing up your style and playing looser. So the best strategy is to play very fundemantally sound TAG and then throw in a very few number of moves that the opponent can't do anything about.
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
i think sklansky mentions this in one of his books
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Re: Poker is a game of accidents
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i think vanveen made a post in a thread about hallingol which said what you just said [/ QUOTE ] Not a H@LL thread, but in this thread VanVeen said: [ QUOTE ] what many on this forum seem to overlook or just not comprehend is that once you've learned the 'basics' of the game there is a fair bit of chance involved in just how successful your overall strategy manages to be once it has 'congealed'. much of the analysis on this forum from well known long-time winners is often wrong or incomplete, yet they manage to win because they play reasonably tight, avoid making highly exploitable errors, and are fortunate enough to choose frequencies that 'work' into an overall strategy(hi grimstarr!). [/ QUOTE ] Also... [ QUOTE ] meh, I thought op was somewhat long-winded and masturbatory. [/ QUOTE ] Meh, you're just jealous that Jason writes better than you. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] |
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