KK - tough river decision
 

MP is a good LAG. CO hates me as we've had run ins in the past. Plays 47/18/1

Thoughts on my river decision please.


Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (12.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, CO checks, Hero ?

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP has Js 9s (two pair, jacks and nines).
CO has 8c Jc (one pair, jacks).
Hero has Kc Kd (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.75 BB. </font>

Re: KK - though river decision
 

bet/fold.. one of the few times I think that I would be able to fold in this large of a pot... I think I Q will definitely not check through here given how scary the board is...

Re: KK - though river decision
 

when im behind a random hand and i dont have very much information on my opponents hands i tend not to value bet holla

Re: KK - though river decision
 

cap floppy

Re: KK - though river decision
 

Umm...I don't understand betting here on the river.
There's a four card flush on the board.

If you bet, and you're up against a flush, you will lose 1-2BB
If you bet, and the opponents don't have a flush, you will get max. 1 call (given that they are not total donks) and win 1 BB

Overall, betting here is not winning poker IMO, you will lose more often than win.

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

I bet this one and fold to a lot of raises. (If the LAG folds and CO who hates you raises I look him up)

With the flop action I would guess that CO has a FD or a weaker made hand a lot. After the turn and river action he prolly never has a flush, but some hand we may call a vb with.

The LAG would be valuebetting a Qx hand or a x [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x hand. My guess is you have him beat a lot and that he will call a vb.

FWIW I did read the results, but I hope they didnt affect my answer.

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

1. All Queens and almost all weak flushes will check this to you on the river. Your bet can just be charging youself with a losing hand.

2. Not many weaker hands are going to call a bet. Probably some 2 pairs will. Most sets will call for one more. How often are you going to be up against those hands and have them call?

3. Some flushes will try to trap you with a c/r.

3a. On the other hand, if you are known to someone as one who can "wisely" fold to a C/R (and it would generally be wise), someone can bluff C/R you every now and then. If they're smart they won't try it a lot, but they can do it just enough to make folding wrong. This would put you in the situation of making a mistake whether you called or folded, not an enviable position.

Holla.

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

You can't bet the river IMO.

Why post the results?

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

Given the way this hand played out. I think one guy has J9 and the other guy has J8 and Im pretty sure neither one of them has a heart in their hand. So this is a very easy value bet.

PS: Thats my way of saying check the river and be happy if you win.

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

I cap the flop, with the bad CO in, you're missing too much value by not doing so. If MP still leads the turn, I just call down though.

As played, I don't like betting this river.

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

Oink dont bet this. If its HU and the other guy had initiative and checks this river u can bet that (even then a portion of that time its a small flush but the bet is likely +EV), but here as gehrig says ur equity vs two random hands is terrible and theres no real reason to think both of them dont have a weak heart they'll showodown.

not only that but getting paid off by worse hands will be harder in a protected pot. Particularly the guy in the middle is going to have a real hard time calling a bet with any non-diamond hand. Hoping to fold him out with a small heart also doesn't seem worth the investment however and betting does open u up to the problems Tom mentioned besides just being a -EV bet even if they could only call.

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

Check behind and see a showdown. Losing a 12.75 BB pot to a bluff here really sucks. What worse hands are calling anyway?

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check behind and see a showdown. Losing a 12.75 BB pot to a bluff here really sucks. What worse hands are calling anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

We need one guy to have 2 pair or a set to call here. We have no idea they have that.

This is a value bet for one bet here that doesn't get called a lot and I would say a good amount of time you get called and lose.

This is a check.

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

Capping the flop is certainly an option, but I don't mind waiting for safe turn card to pop it.

I would be delighted to be able to check through on the river.

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

I b/c this all day long:

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] practically allways valuebet here and 8/7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] will often do so too. Considering the action I can't really imagine any hands with a small heart that stayed till river. Our only real worry is Q, but that will also bet the river quite often. Given this I think a c/r will be a desparation bluff quite often.

Given the pot size a lot of hands will call a bet!!!!

By the way: raise the turn!

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

I thought about this hand some more and I think I played it ok.

I didnt cap the flop because I was going to raise the turn. Obviously the 9 hearts wasn't a great card.

I checked behind on the river because I thought anyone with a queen would have checked anyway.

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didnt cap the flop because I was going to raise the turn. Obviously the 9 hearts wasn't a great card.

[/ QUOTE ]
While the 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] presented a double threat, other cards you'd have to be concerned about coming, if you're not already behind the popularly played JT, include any 7, 8, the other 9s, any T, J, Q, or A; and yes, any King. In other words, almost 2/3rds (30/47) of the deck.

I might cap the flop with my one pair while I thought I might still have the best hand and I had two players to trap. I'll note you don't have to worry about bloating the pot because any gutshot will still have odds to call on the turn even if you don't cap.

I wouldn't be planning on raising most turns.

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

I believe I'd cap the flop and then bet turn if checked to (fold to a c/r) or call down if bet into. Reasonable?

Re: KK - tough river decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe I'd cap the flop and then bet turn if checked to (fold to a c/r) or call down if bet into. Reasonable?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, generally. Unless someone is capable of c/r'g with something like top pair and A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Then you have a tough decision. How would you play it if you had the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?