100/200 Commerce
 

100/200 Commerce
A guy who I think is a solid player at the time (turns out he's really good and not straight forward) opens the pot for a raise in middle position, uber donkey calls and it folds to me in the BB with Jc 10c, I call. Flop is 10,Q,A rainbow. I check PF raiser checks and uber donk checks. Turn 10 I check PF raiser checks and uber donk bets. I raise and PF raiser 3 bets before I can even get my chips in the pot. Uber donk mucks it's up to me, any thoughts?

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

byebye chips/pot.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

u got trips?

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

yes I have trips. fold? call? reraise?

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

Weird. I call down because:

a) I'm confused.
b) It's the commerce.

Devo

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

Normally, if he's a solid player, I would have a hard time believing he checks KJ, AT, QT, AA, QQ or TT twice in a row on that board. 3bet looks like KT, JT, T9 or worse. I would say there's enough doubt here for you to call down. Reraising is not going to do you much good here. Call and bet/call the river unless it's a Q or A.

It really depends on what kind of player the "uberdonk" is. If he's the type to autofire when it's checked to him the raiser could try to be playing off of that, but given the board I really doubt he is trying to get that cute, since a lot of turn cards are trouble for him, no matter what he's holding on that flop.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

strange. hard to put him on a set or 2pair on the flop and turn bc i dont think a solid player would give 2 free shots at gutterballs. i would say he most likely has kj or a ten. of course i know nothing about this game. interesting hand for sure.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

He thinks that you think the uberdonk is full of [censored], and that you're playing off of that.

If i had to guess, i'd say he has KK or KQ.


But im only basing that on the fact that you said he's actually a really good player, and a really good player would not check through once with a set there, nevermind twice.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

who are you dugalufagus? what do you look like?

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

Hmm. It looks like the PFR might have tried to be coy and check the flop with a monster to confused you and the donk. I dont think he checks with KK or JJ or AK or AJ or two pair. I mean I think this a tough spot. I prolly just call down cuz AK is just too likely.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

If he flopped a set, he checks it once. The second time he makes a full house.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

I'm still confused about the hand. I don't think he would check a vulnerable hand like AK KK KQ etc on the flop. On the turn if he did make a full house I can see him checking. I wonder though if he would smooth call my raise with a full house there thought to trap the donk thinking we would both be drawing dead. At the time I thought that I couldn't beat anything that wasn't a pure bluff. It was the nuts or nothing, and to 3-bet check raise on the turn on a bluff seemed unlikely. As it turns out I muck and he tells me he had Q10 and when I asked him what suits he couldn't answer me. I asked him again about an hour later and he stuck to his story. So I'm still puzzled. Honest assesment of the 100 game at Commerce is that it's really tough. I'm gonna stick with the 60 from now on.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

i am just calling through, but it sucks...the board is clearly read, and i cant see him bluffing or over playing a mediocre hand here

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
100/200 Commerce
A guy who I think is a solid player at the time (turns out he's really good and not straight forward) opens the pot for a raise in middle position, uber donkey calls and it folds to me in the BB with Jc 10c, I call. Flop is 10,Q,A rainbow. I check PF raiser checks and uber donk checks. Turn 10 I check PF raiser checks and uber donk bets. I raise and PF raiser 3 bets before I can even get my chips in the pot. Uber donk mucks it's up to me, any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are pretty much only a few hands he could have here. His flop play doesn't seem that great to me. The only way it would be GREAT is if he is bluffing here. That would be some super advanced stuff.

He has either KJ,AA,QQ,JJ,1010, Nothing

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

He played his hand on the flop pretty badly. Not throwing in the continuation bet is obviously the wrong play because there is a lot of value to be had by making the bet. Anyone with an ace is going to call/raise.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

Not necessarily if he has nothing and will try to represent a hand on the turn. People are always suspicious if the PF raiser doesn't continuation bet into a 3 handed pot. Once in a while I will check the flop on a scary or obvious broadway paired board and pick the pot up on the turn. Usually I give up if somebody bets the turn, but not always. i do this only rarely, but it his raise is representing a monster and he might be making OP lay down the best hand.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

not calling the turn here is criminal.
i would probably bet the river and fold to a raise from a solid player

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

I heard valuebetting with sets, straights and full houses is good in limit hold em. But I could be wrong.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

I'll chip in my best guess.

I think he has AT (or perhaps QT). He checks flop assuming uberdonk will have enough of flop to bet, and he will then check-raise and make volume. He fears a free card less than usual because his hand is very hard to draw out on. Only a K or J ruins his hand, and if that card does fall on the turn he will be in very poor shape.

In other words, this method keeps the pot at a size where he can make better decisions on a bad turn - either folding two pair in a small pot, or calling to try to fill up in a large pot.

After he fills on turn he checks again, without fear of free cards and hoping to provoke action like he did.

I dont think he has a set because the turn card is less relevant to a set on the flop, so the information he'll get is also less valuable. A set might as well start jamming right away since it can never fold any turn card.

edit: I saw your results post. Without reliable information, let me just point out the above reasoning is not ridiculous for a creative player stuck with a two pair hand.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

More commentary on this hand:

Also realize that this strong player is playing against the fish here. You're a presumably decent player who tossed in on the BB and checks twice, the villain is rather unconcerned about you in this hand until the somewhat surprising check-raise.

Since he's playing small pot poker (3BB pot) against a bad player, he's way more concerned about getting the donk involved in the pot than he is about free cards. This is why he might go to more extreme lengths to induce action from behind, including checking a good hand twice.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

why not just bet the turn with, intending to call down, and then you won't be in this predicament?

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

To me if you think this guys a donkey I honestly don't understand the fold?? I mean yea he could have flopped broadway or had a higher boat but I think in this situation you have to pay him off.

Your still drawing live against him (assuming he doesn't have a boat yet) to a straight as well and a boat. I think a fold in this situation against a bad player isn't the best idea and why wouldn't he take a stab at the pot on the flop if it's checked to him? I don't get it.

Although in my opinion he can easily have A10, Q10 or Broadway its tough to lay down when you've got a bad player involved.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

Man, i flip flopped a dozen times in 15 minutes about this hand.

I think you check call. But folding is a close second. I only like calling for information reasons I am torn as to if we have the best hand here.

This is really a good hand. I am curious for results

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

It's hard to tell whether he has you beat or not, but you have to call.

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
100/200 Commerce
A guy who I think is a solid player at the time (turns out he's really good and not straight forward) opens the pot for a raise in middle position, uber donkey calls and it folds to me in the BB with Jc 10c, I call. Flop is 10,Q,A rainbow. I check PF raiser checks and uber donk checks. Turn 10 I check PF raiser checks and uber donk bets. I raise and PF raiser 3 bets before I can even get my chips in the pot. Uber donk mucks it's up to me, any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are pretty much only a few hands he could have here. His flop play doesn't seem that great to me. The only way it would be GREAT is if he is bluffing here. That would be some super advanced stuff.

He has either KJ,AA,QQ,JJ,1010, Nothing

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree, i put him on 1010

Re: 100/200 Commerce
 

what suit is the turn?

I dont understand at all the idea of calling his raise and b/f river t
 

To me it all come down to the donk who bet out the turn. I don't understand at all the idea of calling his raise and b/f b/c river thats terrible. If he is making move on you bc your checkraising the donk then let him fire with air again on the river. Theres no way hes playing strong two pair hand this way so your check loses no value. If you had led the turn you wouldn't be in this situation but I understand you didn't want to go headsup with solid player and you wanted possibly "trap donk in middle". I think the problem with folding is the donk in the middle increases likelihood of a bluff so you have to call it down.