Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

MUNICH, Germany -- Serial numbers and other markings on bombs suggest that Iranians are linked to deadly explosives used by Iraqi militants, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Friday in some of the administration's first public assertions on evidence the military has collected. link

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

Well at least Sadam Hussein is gone

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

Is it a surprise that when Iran's neighbors on either side are invaded and occupied by a country that has historically interfered in its affairs, even overthrowing its government, that Iran seeks to make mischief and misery for it? Did the Bush administration figure that Iran would just sit idly by and make nice?

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

I don't see why we should believe this. Remember curveball? These people really really want to go to war with Iran. I expect to hear about an American plane being shot down by Iranians or an Iranian attack on one of our ships in the Persian Gulf any day. Get ready for the Gulf of Persia resolution.

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

Well, I'm not saying the administration has much credibility left here, given the revelations in recent days about Mr. Feith. But if it is true, why should it come as a surprise?

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

Well it's primarily sunnis that are killing americans.

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well it's primarily sunnis that are killing americans.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats not true, although I can't offer specific stats on it, and any stats found on that would be very questionable.

The US is getting hit from both sides in Iraq. The Sunnis are the former government/al qaeda types, the Shiites are the Sadr types. Theres a lot more Shiites then Sunnis.

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

So it's "not true" that it's primarily Sunnis that are killing American soldiers in Iraq, but you don't have any "specific stats" and would find any such statistics "very questionable." If this is the case, then what are you basing your statement on?

I looked around and couldn't find any specific numbers about the composition of the Iraqi insurgency or of insurgent attacks on Americans, so if you have any information on this I'd appreciate it.

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

[ QUOTE ]
So it's "not true" that it's primarily Sunnis that are killing American soldiers in Iraq, but you don't have any "specific stats" and would find any such statistics "very questionable." If this is the case, then what are you basing your statement on?

[/ QUOTE ]

pure numbers game... CIA Factbook says Sunnis are outnumbered by 2 to 1. I severely doubt that Sunnis attack twice as much as Shiites, especially when problem areas are in places like Sadr City are Shiite.

[ QUOTE ]
I looked around and couldn't find any specific numbers about the composition of the Iraqi insurgency or of insurgent attacks on Americans, so if you have any information on this I'd appreciate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You won't find any because it is not possible to collect such data. A bomb goes off, but it goes of the same way if it was Sunni or Shiite, and whoever did it probably isn't gonna stick around.

The original statement that Sunnis are attacking more than Shiites is made with no data or empirical reasoning. I'm posting to say that not only is there no reason to believe that, but considering the demographics of the area, it makes sense that Shiites are attacking more than Sunnis.

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

[ QUOTE ]
pure numbers game... CIA Factbook says Sunnis are outnumbered by 2 to 1. I severely doubt that Sunnis attack twice as much as Shiites, especially when problem areas are in places like Sadr City are Shiite.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you talking about the makeup of the insurgency or of Iraq as a whole? (If you have numbers for the insurgency, could you give a link?) If you're talking about Iraq as a whole, what makes you assume that the Sunni/Shiite composition of the insurgency (and, presumably, attacks and deadly attacks on Americans in Iraq) would mirror the Sunni/Shiite composition of Iraq overall?

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying that you're necessarily wrong, just that it's unclear who is primarily responsible for killing American troops in Iraq, Sunnis or Shiites.

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pure numbers game... CIA Factbook says Sunnis are outnumbered by 2 to 1. I severely doubt that Sunnis attack twice as much as Shiites, especially when problem areas are in places like Sadr City are Shiite.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you talking about the makeup of the insurgency or of Iraq as a whole? (If you have numbers for the insurgency, could you give a link?) If you're talking about Iraq as a whole, what makes you assume that the Sunni/Shiite composition of the insurgency (and, presumably, attacks and deadly attacks on Americans in Iraq) would mirror the Sunni/Shiite composition of Iraq overall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Iraq as a whole, you're not going to get a membership roll from a clandestine group.

Short version, why wouldn't it?

Long version... both groups have interests in fighting the U.S. Sunnis are pissed that the U.S. took over, Shiites want the U.S. out in order to take full control of the country.

The assumption isn't that the makeup of the insurgency isn't EXACTLY the same as Iraq, but that it can't overcome a 2 to 1 ratio. The standard of proof really lies on the opposite argument to prove. I can come up with several reasons why the number of Shiite attacks are more prevalent today, including Iran's involvement and Shiite militias like Sadr's, what evidence is there to conclude that Sunnis attack Americans twice as much per person than Shiites?

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pure numbers game... CIA Factbook says Sunnis are outnumbered by 2 to 1. I severely doubt that Sunnis attack twice as much as Shiites, especially when problem areas are in places like Sadr City are Shiite.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you talking about the makeup of the insurgency or of Iraq as a whole? (If you have numbers for the insurgency, could you give a link?) If you're talking about Iraq as a whole, what makes you assume that the Sunni/Shiite composition of the insurgency (and, presumably, attacks and deadly attacks on Americans in Iraq) would mirror the Sunni/Shiite composition of Iraq overall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Iraq as a whole, you're not going to get a membership roll from a clandestine group.

Short version, why wouldn't it?

Long version... both groups have interests in fighting the U.S. Sunnis are pissed that the U.S. took over, Shiites want the U.S. out in order to take full control of the country.

The assumption isn't that the makeup of the insurgency isn't EXACTLY the same as Iraq, but that it can't overcome a 2 to 1 ratio. The standard of proof really lies on the opposite argument to prove. I can come up with several reasons why the number of Shiite attacks are more prevalent today, including Iran's involvement and Shiite militias like Sadr's, what evidence is there to conclude that Sunnis attack Americans twice as much per person than Shiites?

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't see how you could be anything other than agnostic on the question "What proportion of Sunnis and Shiites are responsible for American deaths in Iraq?" There's an answer, but I don't know it and it's not knowable given current available information.

I don't think you've made logical inferences and reasonable conclusions based on what you know, or at least based on what you've presented here.

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pure numbers game... CIA Factbook says Sunnis are outnumbered by 2 to 1. I severely doubt that Sunnis attack twice as much as Shiites, especially when problem areas are in places like Sadr City are Shiite.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you talking about the makeup of the insurgency or of Iraq as a whole? (If you have numbers for the insurgency, could you give a link?) If you're talking about Iraq as a whole, what makes you assume that the Sunni/Shiite composition of the insurgency (and, presumably, attacks and deadly attacks on Americans in Iraq) would mirror the Sunni/Shiite composition of Iraq overall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Iraq as a whole, you're not going to get a membership roll from a clandestine group.

Short version, why wouldn't it?

Long version... both groups have interests in fighting the U.S. Sunnis are pissed that the U.S. took over, Shiites want the U.S. out in order to take full control of the country.

The assumption isn't that the makeup of the insurgency isn't EXACTLY the same as Iraq, but that it can't overcome a 2 to 1 ratio. The standard of proof really lies on the opposite argument to prove. I can come up with several reasons why the number of Shiite attacks are more prevalent today, including Iran's involvement and Shiite militias like Sadr's, what evidence is there to conclude that Sunnis attack Americans twice as much per person than Shiites?

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't see how you could be anything other than agnostic on the question "What proportion of Sunnis and Shiites are responsible for American deaths in Iraq?" There's an answer, but I don't know it and it's not knowable given current available information.

I don't think you've made logical inferences and reasonable conclusions based on what you know, or at least based on what you've presented here.

[/ QUOTE ]

does it really matter if ratio is 1.5 or 2.5? what's the difference? what is obvious is neither sunnis nor Shiites don't want US presence in iraq. the next thing obvious is that US administration is preparing field for attack on iran (does it really matter if those statements are true or not?).

just remember two statements:
‘sometimes the truth is so precious it must be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies.’ -Donald Rumsfeld, September 25, 2001

“One of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror.” - George Bush 07 Sept. 2006

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

[ QUOTE ]
does it really matter if ratio is 1.5 or 2.5? what's the difference? what is obvious is neither sunnis nor Shiites don't want US presence in iraq. the next thing obvious is that US administration is preparing field for attack on iran (does it really matter if those statements are true or not?).

just remember two statements:
‘sometimes the truth is so precious it must be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies.’ -Donald Rumsfeld, September 25, 2001

“One of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror.” - George Bush 07 Sept. 2006


[/ QUOTE ]

Go Obama! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

What planet are we on? It is common knowledge that sunnis are responsible for most of the attacks on US troops. The Shiite areas are much safer and WE ARE ARMING THEM, which is why this is such a funny angle for the administration to take re: going to war with iran. ZOMG IRAN IS ARMING THEM TOO 10K FIGHT YO?!

[ QUOTE ]
The vast majority -- more than 80 percent -- of American military deaths in Iraq are still being caused by Sunni insurgents, according to an ABC News analysis of data released for the month of October by the Defense Department.

Of the 99 American soldiers killed in hostile action, at least 81 were killed by IED's or hostile fire in areas that are dominated by Sunni Arabs and where U.S. forces have been battling Sunni insurgents since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

By contrast, only three Americans were killed in areas dominated by Shiite Arabs. Fifteen were killed in central Baghdad where populations are mixed with Sunni and Shiite Arabs, and it is therefore difficult to determine the identity of the attackers.

[/ QUOTE ] abc news

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

great. when does the invasion of Iran begin?

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

Attacks on Us troops are overwhelmingly carried out by Sunnnis and overwhelmingly take place in Sunnni dominated parts of Iraq, regardless of what the overall proportion Sunnis make up of the Iraqi population.

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

[ QUOTE ]
What planet are we on? It is common knowledge that sunnis are responsible for most of the attacks on US troops. The Shiite areas are much safer and WE ARE ARMING THEM, which is why this is such a funny angle for the administration to take re: going to war with iran. ZOMG IRAN IS ARMING THEM TOO 10K FIGHT YO?!

[ QUOTE ]
The vast majority -- more than 80 percent -- of American military deaths in Iraq are still being caused by Sunni insurgents, according to an ABC News analysis of data released for the month of October by the Defense Department.

Of the 99 American soldiers killed in hostile action, at least 81 were killed by IED's or hostile fire in areas that are dominated by Sunni Arabs and where U.S. forces have been battling Sunni insurgents since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

By contrast, only three Americans were killed in areas dominated by Shiite Arabs. Fifteen were killed in central Baghdad where populations are mixed with Sunni and Shiite Arabs, and it is therefore difficult to determine the identity of the attackers.

[/ QUOTE ] abc news

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the link--this is exactly the type of analysis I was looking for but couldn't find. I guess my Google-Fu powers are lacking. Has anyone been able to find an wider analysis of insurgent attacks?

Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
 

Arent the Sunnis funded by the Saudis?

Besides, how can Americans expect other nations not to act in their own best interests?

I've heard a lot of talk of bringing stability to the mideast. That is merely code for obedience. The threat of force is no longer enough to fighten nations into submission, especially after the Iraq debacle.