BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange inside)
 

Last night, they did a story on "US up against tough propaganda campaign" after that helicopter video went up.

They spent about 45 seconds showing Hummers getting blown up and videos of clerics blessing a mortor before some guy drops a shell in it.

Right now, they are doing a story on Hamas showing them celebrating.
----------
Here is the challange:

If you are one of the many people on this board that think ABC, CBS, CNN, etc news is liberal. Watch BBC World News for three nonconsectutive nights, especially if America takes some propaganda hit or there is an Israel story.

I am not sure if you can stream it, but it is on at 11pm on the three PBS stations that I get and (now they are talking up Venezuela's Economy) its on at 6:30pm on super liberal WYBE.

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange inside)
 

I saw a very good report on CNN by that Christian Amonpour (spelling?) that examined Muslims in England from pretty much all sides very recently (last Sunday, it was probably a repeat too)

They talked to the radical whacko Muslims, they talked to the non-Muslim citizens growing ever more alarmed with the radicals, and they talked to the moderate sort of Muslims caught in the middle.

Interestingly enough, the moderate Muslims have it horrible, as they catch flack from both sides.

The radicals denounce them as horrible Muslims, not fighting for their cause, traitors, etc.

And the rest of the country has a tendency to lump them in with the nuts.

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

This is up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo

UK Chanel 4 - Dispatches show on UK Muslim Mosques

Very very disturbing. As a Brit who's been in the US for 8 years, it is even more disturbing to me that this is going on in my homeland. Sigh.

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very very disturbing. As a Brit who's been in the US for 8 years, it is even more disturbing to me that this is going on in my homeland. Sigh.

[/ QUOTE ]
The UK's is reaping the consequences of their love affair with multi-culturalism. The problem is only getting worse because the radical mislims have intimidated the moderates to be silent and they are brain-washing a new generation of islamo-fascists. These immigrants and their children are 5th columnists. They have been taught to hate Britain and when the time is right they believe it is their duty to overthrow the infidel govts.....now now.....but prehaps in another 100 years...

My personal prediction is the West will continue to kow-tow to the islamo-fascist(IF), the IF grows bolder, the IF overplays their hand with nuclear terrorism, and then the West wakes up and starts nuking certain muslim countries (Egypt, Saudia-Arabia, Iran, and *Pakistan).

One thing I'm certain of is the problem will get worse before it gets better.


I realize Pakistan is currently an 'ally' of the USA but a single assassin's bullet will topple Musharef and Pakistan could easily become another IF state.

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

We are very lucky (the West) we have superior technology and military might.

Their resolve and what they are willing to do to win is far greater than ours (currently).

Tolerance and multi-culteralism are great, but not when you invite rabid wolves into your home and let them breed.

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
The UK's is reaping the consequences of their love affair with multi-culturalism.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Multi-culturalism is what will ultimatly save the west from Islamic (and any other) sort of facism. While it seems like moderate muslims in Western countries are caught in the middle, and this is no doubt a hard position to be in, they will eventually win the ideological struggle for their religion. Provided of course that Western governments don't play into IF hands by invading anyone else anytime soon...

It's all about the marketplace of ideas. In the west people eventually figure out which ideas are stupid and those ideas get shouted down. Islamic Facism is stupid and won't survive, as long as we stay out of the way and let the marketplace operate. For the record, I'm not sure there's much evidence that IF has taken root in the west- except maybe among a few mis-guided teenagers.

Also I'm not sure how/where we "kow-tow" to Islamic facists.

And also your fifth column remark is ridiculous. Ideas like that led to locking up immigrants from Japan during WWII in America...

Also what did Egypt do?

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Islamic Facism is stupid and won't survive, as long as we stay out of the way and let the marketplace operate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eventually, yes; but it's survived for 1400 years, so it likely has a ways to go yet still.

Intolerance
 

[ QUOTE ]
Multi-culturalism is what will ultimatly save the west from Islamic (and any other) sort of facism.

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly right.

The antidote to islamic reliious fundamentalism is not christian religious fundamentalism or any other kind of fundamentalism. It's tolerance. End of story.

There is a huge caveat to this :

More often than not, multiculturalism is promoted, by both supporters and opponents, like a relativistic stance towards different cultures, as if every culture carries basically the same intrinsic "value", as if human values are relative.

THIS IS NOT THE CASE! While the ideas of persons who support the practices of Hitler or Mohammed or Pericles the Athenian should be equally tolerated, these practices should NOT be all accepted nor tolerated as equal, in terms of value.

In other words, equal respect as we might accord to the various current or ancient cultures of our world, we should not be treating them all the same way when it comes to practice them. A person in a western democracy who wants to perform a clitoris mutilation on a young girl or cut off the hand of a thief should not be allowed to do any such thing, under the threat of strict penalties.

Mickey Brausch

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Their resolve and what they are willing to do to win is far greater than ours (currently).

[/ QUOTE ]

That's kind of the Achilles Heal of the Western World. We probably could have pre-empted WWII pre-39. It just seems to require a ruthlessness that's contrary to our nature. Considering hindsight is 20/20: is it better to kill 1 million today versus 50 million tomorrow - of course. But there's always the possibility that things will work out - which makes it hard if not impossible to decide.

Re: Intolerance
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's tolerance. End of story.

[/ QUOTE ]

But like all good stories, there's an epilogue: the paradox of tolerance - tolerating intolerance. No matter how we try to work around this; tolerance and intolerance cannot co-exist. We can't tolerate the intolerant. There's always this catch-22 that comes up. Yeah, Ghandi figured it out… so there's hope.

Re: Intolerance
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's tolerance. End of story.

[/ QUOTE ]

But like all good stories, there's an epilogue: the paradox of tolerance - tolerating intolerance. No matter how we try to work around this; tolerance and intolerance cannot co-exist. We can't tolerate the intolerant.

[/ QUOTE ]Either we tolerate him or intolerance wins -- because then we would all become intolerant.

Very clearly and provenly so, tolerance can carry the day. The United States of America is a fine example of that, despite efforts to the contrary (most of them having the "best intentions" too.)

[ QUOTE ]
There's always this catch-22 that comes up. Yeah, Ghandi figured it out...

[/ QUOTE ]No, tolerance should not mean pacifism nor weakness in our resolve. The penalties for practising Nazism, for example, (e.g. killing Jews) should be severe.

That's the total opposite of the benign neglect with which the ideas of Nazis should be handled. Should I remined everyone once more of the Jewish laywer from the ACLU defending the American Nazis' right to march through Jewish-inhabited Skokie, Illinois? (link) A truly glorious page in American history, that.

Mickey Brausch

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Islamic Facism is stupid and won't survive, as long as we stay out of the way and let the marketplace operate.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Eventually, yes; but it's survived for 1400 years, so it likely has a ways to go yet still.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe we were talking about radical islam in Western countries, which has existed only recently. Certainly Iran and Saudi Arabia and whoever else don't have a well functioning marketplace of ideas and therefore radical islam flourishes in such places, as you would expect.

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

Who said anything about Hitler??? That is the worst analogy.

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also what did Egypt do?

[/ QUOTE ]
Short Answer: Egypt has a lot of violent muslim extremists in their population. Fortunately, most of them lack the financial means to turn their violent thoughts into violent actions. I based this claim on the Pew International polls of the Arab world on their views on terrorism. Jordan is pretty bad as well.
The most violent form of Islam is the Wahabist version (originated from Saudia-Arabia).
Egypt and Pakistan are and have been one of the the most fertile breeding grounds of Wahabism Islam. Egypt is a ticking time bomb ready to explode. The current autocratic govt has so far been successful in keeping these nuts in line.

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange inside)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Last night, they did a story on "US up against tough propaganda campaign" after that helicopter video went up.

They spent about 45 seconds showing Hummers getting blown up and videos of clerics blessing a mortor before some guy drops a shell in it.

Right now, they are doing a story on Hamas showing them celebrating.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's this strange idea that knowing something about the enemy is a good idea and very news worthy.

Its a dying idea so you wont have to put up with so much in the future. So much better to believe we will all be welcomed with smiles and flowers and enjoy hours of footage of Tony Blair & co telling us how spiffing it all is.

chez

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]

Short Answer: Egypt has a lot of violent muslim extremists in their population. Fortunately, most of them lack the financial means to turn their violent thoughts into violent actions. I based this claim on the Pew International polls of the Arab world on their views on terrorism. Jordan is pretty bad as well.
The most violent form of Islam is the Wahabist version (originated from Saudia-Arabia).
Egypt and Pakistan are and have been one of the the most fertile breeding grounds of Wahabism Islam. Egypt is a ticking time bomb ready to explode. The current autocratic govt has so far been successful in keeping these nuts in line.



[/ QUOTE ]

But what did they DO? Now we're nuking whole countries for how some (or even most) of them think? This sort of preemptive strike idea is the same faulty logic that got us into Iraq. Except worse because you're advocating nuclear options.

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
But what did they DO?

[/ QUOTE ]
There is a large element of al Qaeda and al Qaeda supporters in Egypt. Violent Islam is dominent in Egypt (others are too afraid to challenge them). And it will continue to be as long as they keep brainwashing their children to hate infidels and that killing infidels is justified. Surprisingly, a large number of Egypt's more educated believe this. Only the present dicatatorship keeps these people in line. My problems with Eqypt are
(1)they are a prime recruiting ground for violent Islam,
(2)they brain-wash their children to hate and
(3)they brainwash their children that killing infidels is justified...
Other than that Eqyptians are very nice people. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
you're advocating nuclear options.

[/ QUOTE ]
If nuclear terrorism is intiated against the USA, then a nuclear response is justified against those responsible......no matter how small or large their contributions were in a nuclear attack.

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
If nuclear terrorism is intiated against the USA, then a nuclear response is justified against those responsible......no matter how small or large their contributions were in a nuclear attack.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does that include yourself?

What about those responsible for foreign policy that is in some small way responsible and of course all the peoples in the countries that are in some small way responsible for those who are in some small way responsible?

Does that leave anyone?

chez

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does that include yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh? Has the the USA intiated nuclear terrorism against an entity that I'm not aware of? If so please enlighten me.
I hope you won't be silly enough to cite Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does that include yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh? Has the the USA intiated nuclear terrorism against an entity that I'm not aware of? If so please enlighten me.
I hope you won't be silly enough to cite Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[/ QUOTE ]
our foreign policies are in some small way responsible for what happens aren't they? and we are ins some way responsble for that aren't we?

or do you just mean killing the poor sods trying to get on with their lives while living under bad regimes.

chez

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
our foreign policies are in some small way responsible for what happens aren't they?
and we are ins some way responsble for that aren't we?


[/ QUOTE ]
Sovereign countries are free to pursue their national interests.
If a country initiates violence against another then the victimize country is justified to initiate violence in return. Iran is initiating violence against the USA/UK via armed agents and terrorism. So I want to crush the Iranian economy by lighting their oil fields up like a birthday cake. Then they won't have the money to spread violence outside their borders.

I don't know if this is intentional but you sound like a self-loathing Brit. In the the USA we have lots of self-loathing Americans. Holding the Iranians accountable for their violence against the USA/UK is not a vice. it is a virture. Love of country and culture is not a vice either...

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

our foreign policies are in some small way responsible for what happens aren't they?
and we are ins some way responsble for that aren't we?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sovereign countries are free to pursue their national interests.
If a country initiates violence against another then the victimize country is justified to initiate violence in return. Iran is initiating violence against the USA/UK via armed agents and terrorism. So I want to crush the Iranian economy by lighting their oil fields up like a birthday cake. Then they won't have the money to spread violence outside their borders.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fine but don't pretend that the innocents you kill are any more responsible that you.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if this is intentional but you sound like a self-loathing Brit. In the the USA we have lots of self-loathing Americans. Holding the Iranians accountable for their violence against the USA/UK is not a vice. it is a virture. Love of country and culture is not a vice either...

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't be silly, just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are self-loathing or have any problem with their country in general. It just means we think you are wrong and dangerous, probably the same as you think about us.

chez

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't be silly, just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are self-loathing or have any problem with their country in general. It just means we think you are wrong and dangerous, probably the same as you think about us.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I have misinterpreted your past words then I apologize.
However, you words are earily similar to a batter wife that tells the police she deserved to be smacked around. The US/UK troops do not deserved to be killed by Iranian agents... If the US/UK troops were in Iran, then you could make argument that they had a casus belli to do so.

If Iran wants to pursue diplomatic actions to thwart American interests in Iraq then that is their right. If they choose to initate violence against American/UK soldiers, then there needs to be a violent response in return. The Iranians drew first blood. My opinion is we need to crush the Iranian's means to wage war by crippling their economy... I argue that bombing their oil fields will accomplish that and perhaps lead to the downfall of their evil regime.

This Iranian regime has a history of initiating violence on others. I have already cited the example of them attcking neutral tankers in the Persian Gulf during the Iran-Iraq War. Reagan responded by sinking 1/2 the Iranian fleet in a single day. Iran crumpled like a cheap suit. Gunboat diplomacy works when properly applied....

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Iranians have drew first blood.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://home.millsaps.edu/mcelvrs/Rambo.jpg

awwww [censored] they done it now !!!

NeBlis

Re: Intolerance
 

[ QUOTE ]
Should I remined everyone once more of the Jewish laywer from the ACLU defending the American Nazis' right to march through Jewish-inhabited Skokie, Illinois? (link) A truly glorious page in American history, that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mikey, isn't this a clear freedom of speech issue? When people are prevented from doing things like this (as odious as they may be) it only gives them ammunition to use against us.

See also the case of the disgusting David Irving who was jailed in Austria for denying the holocaust. Now muslim extremists actually have some precedent to go to when demanding that images of the prophet not be used in newspapers or magazines etc.

Re: Intolerance
 

[ QUOTE ]
Now muslim extremists actually have some precedent to go to when demanding that images of the prophet not be used in newspapers or magazines etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is a website that sells t-shirts with that cartoon of Mohammed on the front that caused all the riots. I have worn my mohammed t-shirt several times but nobody knows what it means. One person said to me, "I like your pirate t-shirt". [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Last night, they did a story on "US up against tough propaganda campaign" after that helicopter video went up.

They spent about 45 seconds showing Hummers getting blown up and videos of clerics blessing a mortor before some guy drops a shell in it.

Right now, they are doing a story on Hamas showing them celebrating.


[/ QUOTE ]

I mean, it's not as if these things are at all newsworthy.

Re: Intolerance
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Should I remined everyone once more of the Jewish laywer from the ACLU defending the American Nazis' right to march through Jewish-inhabited Skokie, Illinois? (link) A truly glorious page in American history, that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mikey, isn't this a clear freedom of speech issue? When people are prevented from doing things like this (as odious as they may be) it only gives them ammunition to use against us.

[/ QUOTE ]
He wasn't being sarcastic.

"I hate Illinois Nazis."

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't be silly, just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are self-loathing or have any problem with their country in general. It just means we think you are wrong and dangerous, probably the same as you think about us.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If I have misinterpreted your past words then I apologize.
However, you words are earily similar to a batter wife that tells the police she deserved to be smacked around. The US/UK troops do not deserved to be killed by Iranian agents... If the US/UK troops were in Iran, then you could make argument that they had a casus belli to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've no ideas how you get that interpretation. Closer would be that its a bad plan to kill all the people the wife-batterer happened to grow up with or all his familly but there's no great way to make sense of your intrepretation.

[ QUOTE ]
Gunboat diplomacy works when properly applied....

[/ QUOTE ] Sure and applied badly by the incompetent and the callous is a complete disaster for all concerned.

BTW I don't think this is gunboat diplomacy, that was a cheap bluff where it was considered there was relatively little chance of being called.

chez

Re: Intolerance
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Should I remined everyone once more of the Jewish lawyer from the ACLU defending the American Nazis' right to march through Jewish-inhabited Skokie, Illinois? (link) A truly glorious page in American history, that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this a clear freedom of speech issue? When people are prevented from doing things like this (as odious as they may be) it only gives them ammunition to use against us.

[/ QUOTE ]
He wasn't being sarcastic.



[/ QUOTE ]Thanks, bdk3clash. I didn't undertand what ojc02 meant by his post but now I do. He thought I was being sarcastic. But I wasn't. I truly believe that that was a truly glorious page in American history.

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've no ideas how you get that interpretation.

[/ QUOTE ]
THIS QUOTE:
"our foreign policies are in some small way responsible for what happens aren't they? and we are ins some way responsble for that aren't we?"
So Iran is justified in killing US/UK soldiers in Iraq? What is the casus belli this opinion?

[ QUOTE ]
BTW I don't think this is gunboat diplomacy, that was a cheap bluff where it was considered there was relatively little chance of being called.

[/ QUOTE ]
So when Reagan sank 1/2 the Iranian navy in one day this was a bluff???!!!! LOL! I wonder what you would call a raise? I suppose if Reagan invaded Iran and put all their cities to the torch and plowed their land with salt you would call this check/calling. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've no ideas how you get that interpretation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


THIS QUOTE:
"our foreign policies are in some small way responsible for what happens aren't they? and we are ins some way responsble for that aren't we?"
So Iran is justified in killing US/UK soldiers in Iraq? What is the casus belli this opinion?

[/ QUOTE ]
hmm I don't believe that some small responsibility justifies killing anybody. I'm arguing against that, you are the one who seems to agree with this hideous idea.


[ QUOTE ]
BTW I don't think this is gunboat diplomacy, that was a cheap bluff where it was considered there was relatively little chance of being called.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So when Reagan sank 1/2 the Iranian navy in one day this was a bluff???!!!! LOL! I wonder what you would call a raise? I suppose if Reagan invaded Iran and put all their cities to the torch and plowed their land with salt you would call this check/calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking more of thios type of thing: "Gunboat diplomacy had its origins in the Opium War, when the Chinese rebelled against the British importation of opium into China, and the British response was to send a gunboat up the Yangtze River" but it may just be a US/UK different use of the same language - hopefully we agree not to fight over that [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

chez

Re: BBC shows long Muslim propaganda videos during News (challange ins
 

[ QUOTE ]
I argue that bombing their oil fields will accomplish that and perhaps lead to the downfall of their evil regime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really doubt the former will ever be employed unless there's no other means to achieve the latter. We're kind of caught in this spot of separating the leadership in different Mid-East states from the people, and most of our tactics seem to be focused on preserving the welfare of the civilians while engaging the leaders.

Sure, we could take out Iran's oil pipeline, but that's really just an extension of taking out the their power, water, and food supply-line. There's nothing that could prevent us from doing this, just like there would be nothing to prevent us from doing that in Iraq, but it doesn't necessarily fit into our overall objectives.

I think the overall objectives are:
1) preventing the emergence of a ME super-power.
2) the establishment of a quasi-democratic states (1970's Iran).
3) complete instability if (2) can't be established.

Re: Intolerance
 

[ QUOTE ]
I truly believe that that was a truly glorious page in American history.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="brown"> It was now a few minutes after 10:00 o'clock. Secretary McNamara announced that two Russian ships, the Gagarin and the Komiles, were within a few miles of our quarantine barrier. The interception of both ships would probably be before noon Washington time. Indeed, the expectation was that at least one of the vessels would be stopped and bearded between 10:30 and 11:00 o'clock.

Then came the disturbing Navy report that a Russian submarine had moved into position between the two ships.

It had originally been planned to have a cruiser make the first interception, but, because of the increased danger, it was decided in the past few hours to send in an aircraft carrier supported by helicopters, carrying antisubmarine equipment, hovering overhead. The carrier Essex was to signal the submarine by sonar to surface and identify itself. If it refused, said Secretary McNamara, depth charges with a small explosive would be used until the submarine surfaced.

I think these few minutes were the time of gravest concern for the President. Was the world on the brink of a holocaust? Was it our error? A mistake? Was there something further that should have been done? Or not done? His hand went up to his face and covered his mouth. He opened and closed his fist. His face seemed drawn, his eyes pained, almost gray. We stared at each other across the table. For a few fleeting seconds, it was almost as though no one else was there and he was no longer the President.

Then it was 10:25 -- a messenger brought in a note to John McCone. "Mr. President, we have a preliminary report which seems to indicate that some of the Russian ships have stopped dead in the water."

Stopped dead in the water? Which ships? Are they checking the accuracy of the report? Is it true? I looked at the clock. 10:32 "The report is accurate, Mr. President. Six ships previously on their way to Cuba at the edge of the quarantine line have stopped or have turned back toward the Soviet Union. A representative from the Office of Naval Intelligence is on his way over with the full report." A short time later, the report came that the twenty Russian ships closest to the barrier had stopped and were dead in the water or had turned around.</font>

There's always perspectives - there are times when lines in the sand need to be drawn.

It's one thing to look at situations from an objective perspective, whether philosophical or political, but that's a luxury that the people who take an oath to protect and serve the interest of the United States of America are not given. Idealistic and democratic ideals for the rest of the world are nice, but they really don't factor into the equation.

The cold facts are that the United States is dependant on the free-flow of oil from the Middle East. And not just so we can chug around in our SUV's - but for our national defense. In the event of an attack on our country, we simply cannot defend ourselves without the unimpinged oil supply from the Mid-East. To do so would render the U.S. defenseless, in a conventional manner, and it would be a literal act of treason for a sworn-in government employee to aid and abet in this scenario.

From the context of your posts, I'm assuming you have an adequate understanding of history to grasp the reality and gravity of the situation. Japan didn't just wake up one day and decide to attack Pearl Harbor - the attack was a direct (90 day) response to the United States' cut off-of their oil supply.

I'm not saying it's pretty, ethical, good, or right - but it is reality.

Re: Intolerance
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I truly believe that that was a truly glorious page in American history.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="brown"> It was now a few minutes after 10:00 o'clock. Secretary McNamara announced that two Russian ships, the Gagarin and the Komiles, were within a few miles of our quarantine barrier. The interception of both ships would probably be before noon Washington time. Indeed, the expectation was that at least one of the vessels would be stopped and bearded between 10:30 and 11:00 o'clock.

Then came the disturbing Navy report that a Russian submarine had moved into position between the two ships.

It had originally been planned to have a cruiser make the first interception, but, because of the increased danger, it was decided in the past few hours to send in an aircraft carrier supported by helicopters, carrying antisubmarine equipment, hovering overhead. The carrier Essex was to signal the submarine by sonar to surface and identify itself. If it refused, said Secretary McNamara, depth charges with a small explosive would be used until the submarine surfaced.

I think these few minutes were the time of gravest concern for the President. Was the world on the brink of a holocaust? Was it our error? A mistake? Was there something further that should have been done? Or not done? His hand went up to his face and covered his mouth. He opened and closed his fist. His face seemed drawn, his eyes pained, almost gray. We stared at each other across the table. For a few fleeting seconds, it was almost as though no one else was there and he was no longer the President.

Then it was 10:25 -- a messenger brought in a note to John McCone. "Mr. President, we have a preliminary report which seems to indicate that some of the Russian ships have stopped dead in the water."

Stopped dead in the water? Which ships? Are they checking the accuracy of the report? Is it true? I looked at the clock. 10:32 "The report is accurate, Mr. President. Six ships previously on their way to Cuba at the edge of the quarantine line have stopped or have turned back toward the Soviet Union. A representative from the Office of Naval Intelligence is on his way over with the full report." A short time later, the report came that the twenty Russian ships closest to the barrier had stopped and were dead in the water or had turned around.</font>

There's always perspectives - there are times when lines in the sand need to be drawn.

It's one thing to look at situations from an objective perspective, whether philosophical or political, but that's a luxury that the people who take an oath to protect and serve the interest of the United States of America are not given. Idealistic and democratic ideals for the rest of the world are nice, but they really don't factor into the equation.

The cold facts are that the United States is dependant on the free-flow of oil from the Middle East. And not just so we can chug around in our SUV's - but for our national defense. In the event of an attack on our country, we simply cannot defend ourselves without the unimpinged oil supply from the Mid-East. To do so would render the U.S. defenseless, in a conventional manner, and it would be a literal act of treason for a sworn-in government employee to aid and abet in this scenario.

From the context of your posts, I'm assuming you have an adequate understanding of history to grasp the reality and gravity of the situation. Japan didn't just wake up one day and decide to attack Pearl Harbor - the attack was a direct (90 day) response to the United States' cut off-of their oil supply.

I'm not saying it's pretty, ethical, good, or right - but it is reality.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why did you include Mickey's quote about the Skokie Nazi march? If this was a response to Mickey's post I'm totally confused. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

EDIT: Maybe you're making a point about both incidents being glorious pages in American history, one in a feel-good kind of way, the other in a realpolitik kind of way. Am I close?

Re: Intolerance
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you include Mickey's quote about the Skokie Nazi march? If this was a response to Mickey's post I'm totally confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was simply an additive to great/defining moments in an ideology and possibly broadening its scope. The confusion is on me (my bad). But I enjoy Mickey's perspective on things, so I was just creating a little, slightly off-topic dialog.

Close to the edge
 

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McNamara ... Russian ships ... quarantine ... Washington time ... Russian submarine ... John McCone ... Kennedy ... Cuba

[/ QUOTE ]IMO, the Cuban missile crisis and how it was handled by the American leadership of that time are a superb lesson in crisis management. One should start with the actual CIA transcripts of the White House meetings and communications, and then peruse the memoirs written by the various protagonists, incl. Krutchev's.

Hate JFK for whatever you want but he didn't crash our bus at Deadman's Curve.

Mickey Brausch

Re: Intolerance
 

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Should I remined everyone once more of the Jewish lawyer from the ACLU defending the American Nazis' right to march through Jewish-inhabited Skokie, Illinois? (link) A truly glorious page in American history, that.

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Isn't this a clear freedom of speech issue? When people are prevented from doing things like this (as odious as they may be) it only gives them ammunition to use against us.

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He wasn't being sarcastic.



[/ QUOTE ]Thanks, bdk3clash. I didn't undertand what ojc02 meant by his post but now I do. He thought I was being sarcastic. But I wasn't. I truly believe that that was a truly glorious page in American history.

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Ahh, ok, sorry Mikey, I really should've noticed the lack of [sarc][/sarc] tags [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I should've realized that it would've been totally out of character for you if you had meant that.

<Sigh> I Fear You Are Correct
 

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I argue that bombing their oil fields will accomplish that and perhaps lead to the downfall of their evil regime.

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I really doubt the former will ever be employed unless there's no other means to achieve the latter. We're kind of caught in this spot of separating the leadership in different Mid-East states from the people, and most of our tactics seem to be focused on preserving the welfare of the civilians while engaging the leaders.

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Unfortunately I think you are correct.
There is a Chinese proverb that says, "A lion uses all its might when attacking a rabbit". My argument is to kill this rabbit with one mighty pounce. My view is in the minority....

Diplomacy with Iran is useless and other posters have made posts the Chi-Coms are giving UN cover to Iran in exchange for discounted oil. Only a decisive military option will change Iran's evil goals...

Re: <Sigh> I Fear You Are Correct
 

Felix-
I've kindof even lost the thread of what you're advocating re: Iran. We are supposed to kill them w/ one mighty pounce, most likely nuclear? But what for, exactly?

This preemptive stuff is like when you're playing cards w/ a nutto so you decide to be a nutto too. And then you end up in a hand where you both have squat but you both five bet-bluff at it becuase each knows the other is nut... and most likely some third player ends up catching you both off guard and gettin all chips from both of you...

I just don't get the point. It's some dick measuring contest or something- relies almost entirely on the premise that "they're evil." Well maybe they are but more likely they're just different. And who's on the evil list these days anyways? Iraq was, Iran is, you also have mentioned Egypt, Saudi Arabia, probably Syria, you'd have to include Sudan... but why stop at just Islamic coutries? Throw in N. Korea, China, possibly Russia, why the hell not- "they're evil!" Are we supposed to fight every evil country? Or just the worst ones? And all at once or can we pick? And if we're picking why didn't we pick the most dangerous one? (N.Korea both before Iraq and currently) Or the most ready for democracy? (Iran before Iraq, but now noone really) Or the easiest? (Sudan- [censored], we could conquer the largest country in africa w/ a couple of helicopters and a jeep, stopping a genocide instead of avenging a couple of thousand deaths a decade old). Anyways attacking Iraq was stupid and attacking Iran would be worse.

For generations, Western foreign policy was defensive-- just fighting off whatever threat was coming at us, while relying on the strength of our ideas to win all the best immigrants in the short term and nations in the long term to our side... and it worked- democracy slowly and consistently expanded.

... Then came the neo-cons and their ridiculous reverse-domino theory. Didn't they learn anything from the cold-war? Nations aren't dominos, one doesn't become something just because the one next to it did- whether that something is democratic or communist. But anyways now we use trumped up excuses to invade countries, and clumsily.

Anyways I'm rambling now but your ideas are just so ill-formed and well, dangerous that they really bother me.