Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

Attn B&M regulars:

As you probably all know the B&M forum has very few rules. We ask that you act politely towards one another, that you avoid discussion about cardrooms of dubious legal nature, don't discuss underage gambling, don't post bad beat stories, and you don't post things that are common discussions in this forum that are asked about again and again.

This brings us to the topic of this community thread, how do you feel the acting moderators of this forum should respond to one of these repetitive topics: tipping threads.

This is a quote from the B&M FAQ discussing what cannot be posted:
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4. Anything that's posted about ad nauseum. For example, tipping, 18+ casinos, how much money to bring to a casino. If you have a basic question, it's probably been asked and answered multiple times in the past. PLEASE USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now some may disagree with us, but RR & I believe that the majority of the discussions that take place in B&M are rehashed topics, and there is nothing wrong with this. B&M is not a closed community, there are many people that come and go who do not follow this forum daily and therefore may not know that a previous discussion on the same topic already exists. Also as everyone who has ever spent time in a B&M card room knows tipping is a part of poker culture and community; but that doesn't mean that the reasons for tiping or the amounts to tip are known by all.

RR and I would like to permit more open discussion on tipping going forward, provided the B&M forum community agrees with this revision in policy. We will of course continue to lock threads if there is already another active topic about tipping, suspending users who start flame wars or are abusive to their fellow 2+2'ers in tipping related threads, and take appropriate action with users who have a history of "no content" posts.

So what do you think B&M... should we allow tipping threads for now on? RR and I would like to know what you think before we make a final decision.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

TT --

As far as I understand your position, I agree exactly with you and RR.

--Nate

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

I agree but imo i'm new and when I ever try to do a search on something its hard as hell. I mean lets say i want to find something on tipping. I type that in and get just about everything possible but instead of displaying just the opening post thread it displays everyone and thus clutters up the search results. If you can some how make the search more user friendly that would be great.

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

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I agree but imo i'm new and when I ever try to do a search on something its hard as hell. I mean lets say i want to find something on tipping. I type that in and get just about everything possible but instead of displaying just the opening post thread it displays everyone and thus clutters up the search results. If you can some how make the search more user friendly that would be great.

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Its rather easy actually. Put a "+" before each work you want to include, and a "-" before each word you want to remove. For example to see all the tipping threads in the past week where the word tipping is either i the subject or in the body of the original post type +tipping -re: in the search box. Not the -re: qualifier removes all of the thread responses from the search results.

I hope that helps!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

Since I'm often tweaking my own tipping method, I always enjoy reading a good tipping thread. Sometimes I learn a thing or two.

Thanks,

Howard

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

I vote for locking threads. Link to a couple tipping threads in the sticky.

Everything that could be said has been said.

It clogs up the front page, and wastes everybody's time who posts in it or reads it (granted they choose to do so, but in this case I'd like to see a little forum paternalism to keep energy moving to the good threads).

It drags down the forum's general level of decorum, as it's always a flame war. Half of the threads look like they're started as straight up troll posts. It's not like there's a dirth of peopling being nasty, rude, and full of themselves around 2+2.

Plus, I can't wait for the "we haven't had a tipping thread in a while so-- should I tip?" posts if the rules are changed.

All that said, threads about tipping other casino people might be ok, as they'd at least have some content, just leave the basic poker dealer tip thread off the page please.

edit: TT add a poll. Also, this thread may not be a good indicator as the title makes it look like a tipping thread instead of a meta-tipping thread. The only reason I clicked on it was that it was started by a mod.

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

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edit: TT add a poll. Also, this thread may not be a good indicator as the title makes it look like a tipping thread instead of a meta-tipping thread. The only reason I clicked on it was that it was started by a mod.

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Nope - no poll. We want opinions, polls pollute the opinion pool by twisting the results to fit the "polltard's" needs. Sure it takes longer to respond, that thats what we are trying to encourage - open communication.

PS: As I pointed out in the op, trolls and no-content posts will always be dealt with, therefore you wont see "we haven't had a tipping thread in a while so-- should I tip" active for long if it starts.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

There are some interesting topics to be covered but for the most part they quickly disolve into flame wars. I could see tipping threads being useful, but only with heavy moderation, which would suck for you and RR.

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

TT,

I don't post much so I'm not a "regular" but I have been around this forum for awhile. Tipping posts are a good thing IMO. When done constructively they allow people to figure out what is considered normal tipping. I'm sure the first time we all played live we didn't know much about tipping unless we had heard from a friend or a forum. Keeping that communication open is not a bad thing.

Poker rooms and casinos can be intimidating enough to people who are going for the first time. Knowing how to act, when to tip, who to tip, and how much to tip can make this experience better. This seems to be the goal of this forum, making our experience better in whatever live venue we play.

Another idea is to have a sticky thread that is kept open for posts about tipping. This will keep posters from making 2-3 threads per week about tipping, and will allow for a continuous discuss on the topic. Until the search function becomes easier to use for someone who is just typing in "tipping" I think this could solve the problem of too many threads.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

How about a sticky titled "About Tipping Threads" that would link to the good discussions about tipping dealers and outline the rules for a new tipping discussion.

For instance: "Posts about tipping dealers will be locked due to the fact that it has been discussed at length many times. However, posts about tipping other casino personnel will be allowed". I simply don't read the new tipping threads...same old crap every time.

Having the bit about tipping posts in the FAQ is a good idea, but many new posters simply ignore the FAQ to begin with.

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

Thanks TT i never new that, but as far as locking threads i'm not a fan of thread locking because what if someone wants to chime in on the subjuct. For instance i recently made a thread about tipping at the end of the time instead of after each pot. I feel thats a thread that shouldn't be locked just because its on tipping. I felt its a good thread that had some good topics. I agree to make a sticky about tipping but leave the forum open to new discusion. If people don't want to read about tipping than I suggest not opening topics that start with tipping.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

Tipping threads are like volcanos. They lie dormant for a while but sooner or later the pressure builds up and then the explosion occurs. It is a force of nature and can't be controlled. Remember, there are new people coming to 2p2 all the time and some of them are just FRANTIC to get their tipping opinions off their chests. I say let them. Besides, most of the tipping threads are started by the non-tippers (as far as I remember) and I enjoy reading them try to defend themselves as they're getting dumped on.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

Sure, whatever.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

I don't post in this forum that much but I do cruise thru here about everyday to see what's going on. I would go along with whatever the moderators think. A sticky as others have suggested might be an option.

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It clogs up the front page, and wastes everybody's time who posts in it or reads it (granted they choose to do so, but in this case I'd like to see a little forum paternalism to keep energy moving to the good threads).

[/ QUOTE ]

I can assure you that tipping threads won't be clogging up the front page. Trollish and repetitive posts will be locked or deleted. The issue as we see it is that tipping threads can turn ugly really fast, but there are people heading to a B&M for the first time that really don't know how much/when they should tip.

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

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The issue as we see it is that tipping threads can turn ugly really fast

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Sheeesh! That's the part I like.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

As long as the subject clearly indicates the thread is on tipping, the regulars who despise the subject can skip it.

So as far as I can tell, the biggest burden is on the moderators who have to ensure the subject line is clearly marked, and then reign the tipping threads when they turn in to the inevitable flame war.

TT, if you, Randy, et al are willing to do the mod work on tipping threads, then go ahead and allow tipping threads.

One exception, no tangents about tipping in threads that did not start on the subject. Hijacks should not be allowed, even if the subject line changes, because the posts will still be under the original topic.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

If I remember correctly, you can't have an unlocked sticky but I could be wrong. I have complete faith in TT & RR and if they want to baby sit the tipping threads, go for it.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

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How about a sticky titled "About Tipping Threads" that would link to the good discussions about tipping dealers and outline the rules for a new tipping discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]
how about a sticky titled “tipping” that is stuck at the top of the first page, where all tipping questions get posted? noobs can read the entire thing and add their question if it hasn’t been asked yet.

(we can have stickys that aren’t locked, right?)

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about a sticky titled "About Tipping Threads" that would link to the good discussions about tipping dealers and outline the rules for a new tipping discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]
how about a sticky titled “tipping” that is stuck at the top of the first page, where all tipping questions get posted? noobs can read the entire thing and add their question if it hasn’t been asked yet.

(we can have stickys that aren’t locked, right?)

[/ QUOTE ]

No unlocked stickies.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

The biggest problem I have with tipping threads are that, like yawning, they are contagious. They disappear for a few weeks and then, all of a sudden there are 6 of them on the front page as each person thinks up a new question and opens a new thread for it.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

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No unlocked stickies.

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thats ridiculous!

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

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I agree but imo i'm new and when I ever try to do a search on something its hard as hell. I mean lets say i want to find something on tipping. I type that in and get just about everything possible but instead of displaying just the opening post thread it displays everyone and thus clutters up the search results. If you can some how make the search more user friendly that would be great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its rather easy actually. Forget this site's search function and use Google instead. site:twoplustwo.com will restrict the content to this site.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now to the OP: I have a well-documented intolerance for anything that gets discussed over and over again without any new ground being covered. I think everyone should post his or her opinion on tipping somewhere, where a new case is discovered that hasn't been addressed before maybe it should be added, and the whole thing should take up no more than one thread on here.

I've offered the wiki for this purpose, but few see any value there so we get what we get as a result.

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

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I have a well-documented intolerance for anything that gets discussed over and over again without any new ground being covered.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty much the whole B&M forum. There is very little new ground covered here on any topic.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

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No unlocked stickies.

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I believe the forum software is open-source. If there were sufficient will for "unlocked stickies", it could happen.

That said, I don't think it's the best solution here. If you have an unlocked sticky for tipping, then why not an unlocked sticky for "Where are the best $1-2 games in Vegas?" or "I want to see that hand," or "Where should I go in AC?" or "Does show one show all mean I can't show just one card?" Requiring significant scrolling to see new topics (yeah, there are a few occasionally) is IMO a major UI flaw.

Stickies are just a stopgap kludge to make up for the fact that the static front page of the forum isn't sufficiently configurable.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

mods,

I think it's fine as long as:

- one tipping thread at a time
- the subject makes the content of the thread super clear

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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No unlocked stickies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the forum software is open-source. If there were sufficient will for "unlocked stickies", it could happen.

That said, I don't think it's the best solution here. If you have an unlocked sticky for tipping, then why not an unlocked sticky for "Where are the best $1-2 games in Vegas?" or "I want to see that hand," or "Where should I go in AC?" or "Does show one show all mean I can't show just one card?" Requiring significant scrolling to see new topics (yeah, there are a few occasionally) is IMO a major UI flaw.

Stickies are just a stopgap kludge to make up for the fact that the static front page of the forum isn't sufficiently configurable.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you talking about? There is no physical problem with an unlocked sticky. It is against policy to have an unlocked sticky for the advertisers benefit.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

I misunderstood you to be implying that there's a technical problem with it. If the problem is policy, then that's policy.

What advertisers benefit from closing off discussion on something like "Restaurants in Vegas"?

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

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Its rather easy actually. Forget this site's search function and use Google instead. site:twoplustwo.com will restrict the content to this site.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you use Firefox, you can add a dedicated search for this (Googling twoplustwo forums) to your Search Engine toolbar.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7...henginead8.png

Go here to add this option to your list of searches.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about a sticky titled "About Tipping Threads" that would link to the good discussions about tipping dealers and outline the rules for a new tipping discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you cannot tell yet RR and I kinda suck at fixing the FAQ, stickies, and stuff like that. Our intentions are good, but I know I am too lazy to do anything about it [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks TT i never new that, but as far as locking threads i'm not a fan of thread locking because what if someone wants to chime in on the subjuct. For instance i recently made a thread about tipping at the end of the time instead of after each pot. I feel thats a thread that shouldn't be locked just because its on tipping. I felt its a good thread that had some good topics. I agree to make a sticky about tipping but leave the forum open to new discusion. If people don't want to read about tipping than I suggest not opening topics that start with tipping.

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Ahh... your example is another reason why tipping threads were discouraged. Too many posters with their own personal agenda have tried to encourage things like not tipping, only tipping a buck or two at the end of a down, etc. This not the norm, not good for the dealer's wages, and therefore not good for the game. I have to check with RR but I think we would continue to lock those threads because I view them to be trollish (even if the intentions are good such as you pointed out) and bad for the long term prosperity of the game.

Think of it this way - there is always the alternative of ePoker, and personally I have no interest in playing on one of those stupid tables.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree but imo i'm new and when I ever try to do a search on something its hard as hell. I mean lets say i want to find something on tipping. I type that in and get just about everything possible but instead of displaying just the opening post thread it displays everyone and thus clutters up the search results. If you can some how make the search more user friendly that would be great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its rather easy actually. Forget this site's search function and use Google instead. site:twoplustwo.com will restrict the content to this site.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now to the OP: I have a well-documented intolerance for anything that gets discussed over and over again without any new ground being covered. I think everyone should post his or her opinion on tipping somewhere, where a new case is discovered that hasn't been addressed before maybe it should be added, and the whole thing should take up no more than one thread on here.

I've offered the wiki for this purpose, but few see any value there so we get what we get as a result.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we told everyone to visit the wiki then there would be no B&M forum. Its a helpful resource, but we want the focus to remain on the B&M forum and the community built here - not a third party site.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: The Topic of Tipping: Whats your opinion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Its rather easy actually. Forget this site's search function and use Google instead. site:twoplustwo.com will restrict the content to this site.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you use Firefox, you can add a dedicated search for this (Googling twoplustwo forums) to your Search Engine toolbar.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7...henginead8.png

Go here to add this option to your list of searches.

[/ QUOTE ]

STEVE!!!! Why didn't you tell me about this earlier!!!!! Thats fantastic!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

Of course you should permit tipping threads for the exact reason you stated:

[ QUOTE ]
B&M is not a closed community, there are many people that come and go who do not follow this forum daily and therefore may not know that a previous discussion on the same topic already exists. Also as everyone who has ever spent time in a B&M card room knows tipping is a part of poker culture and community; but that doesn't mean that the reasons for tipping or the amounts to tip are known by all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Along with the fact that, despite your contention that the search function is relatively simple, it is in fact not so easy to obtain usable results for those of us who are not so savvy.

The third reason you should not lock tipping threads is because it is “nittish” to do so. - Many of the forums on 2+2 are becoming very cliquish – those “in the know” and those “not in the know”. I am becoming somewhat disenchanted with 2+2 as of late, but that is for another discussion. – What does it possibly matter if there is a tipping thread posted today that has been discussed last week (that is, is not on the first few pages)? If one does not want to read another tipping thread – umm, don’t read it. In the strategy sections – do you think there are not hands posted that are basically the same hand that have been done before?

Locking threads that are not insulting (or for similar reasons), but for reasons like “it has been done” before, is elitism. You, TT, have always come across as someone above the norm, in the know, confident in your knowledge and stature. Yet, you have never acted superior. Don’t let power corrupt you – it is beneath you.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

In its current state, I don't mind the repetitive tipping threads. HOWEVER, a couple months ago TomBrooks when on a bumping frenzy, knocking a TON of old tipping threads to the front page. That pretty much turned me off to tipping threads altogether, and I pretty much haven't even clicked on one since.

Though I personally would like to see a strong reduction in them as to me they are all ad nauseum, I realize that B&M is not all about me, so therefore, I feel that the current state of them is satisfactory (not great, but not bad either).

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

I think tipping threads should be allowed. I understand how to tip a dealer but I actually like reading opinions and suggestions of others.

The search function doesn't always work well for me either (operator error) so I can understand when someone new to the forum might have had a problem.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

How about this rule:

For every tipping thread they start, a poster must post a trip report containing at least two amusing strip club/hooker/crazy girlfriend stories.

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

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In its current state, I don't mind the repetitive tipping threads. HOWEVER, a couple months ago TomBrooks when on a bumping frenzy, knocking a TON of old tipping threads to the front page.

[/ QUOTE ]
Tom forgot to take his meds that day or something, he is a much more reasonable person than he came across at the time. Thats an extreme example, its far from the norm and was delt with right away. And we will always deal with disruptions like that, using a mixture of the three penalties we have within our power - locking of threads, suspension, or banning (banning goes down to the IP level if necessary). Of course we try to be as lenient as possible, offering second chances etc. We also try to keep our personal opinions from clouding our judgment... we moderate for you - the participants in the B&M forum, not for ourselves.

Good insights so far in this thread.. thanks!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Locking threads that are not insulting (or for similar reasons), but for reasons like “it has been done” before, is elitism. You, TT, have always come across as someone above the norm, in the know, confident in your knowledge and stature. Yet, you have never acted superior. Don’t let power corrupt you – it is beneath you.

[/ QUOTE ]

no worries, power wont corrupt me or RR because being a moderator is a helping position, not a position of real power. We are here to make things better for you all, not worse.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Tipping Threads: Whats your opinion?
 

I vote for allowing tipping threads and also adding a sticky. Tipping threads should clearly indicate that they are about tipping.

Here is my rationale - I think that tipping threads invariably turn into flame wars between people who want to force their personal opinion on others (both pro-tip and anti-tip people are guilty of this). It is similar in a way to asking "what percentage of my income should I donate to charity?", or "should I go to church every Sunday?". That being said, I think that there is no harm in allowing tipping threads as long as they are clearly marked as such.

It would also be helpful to have a sticky that explained that tipping is a personal decision, and people have very passionate and very different beliefs on the subject. The sticky should also include a list of some of the more or less accepted norms for tipping all of the various people you might run across during your B&M experience (valets, front desk clerks, maids, waitstaff at restaurants, dealers, chip runners, floor people, etc). You could include a range where appropriate. It would also be helpful to understand who you should NOT attempt to tip (people that cannot accept tips or who might be offended in some way).

This way, if someone is planning their first trip to a B&M, they can get the info they need (from the sticky) to avoid looking / feeling foolish. If people want to try to change other people's personal values about tipping, they can start a new thread that will likely degenerate into a flame war. At least they will have been warned via the sticky.