The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

Is alcoholism a "disease?"

The AMA, WHO, and many others agree that alcoholism is a disease and is treatable, though I've heard the treatment success rate isn't all that good. Somewhere around 1 in 10 who go through the 28 day treatment model are able to stay sober for 1 year or longer.

There are others who insist that it's a behavior or just a willpower issue.

What are your thoughts? Is alcoholism a disease or not?

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

Whatever you call it, 12-step programs have to go.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever you call it, 12-step programs have to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

I had this discussion recently.

Explanations and discussions aside, I offered to make a significant bet at generous odds based on demographic statistics, that I would never become an alchoholic, drug addict or gambling addict.

I would not make that bet regarding an actual disease such as cancer.

Regarding the 12 step program used by all xya anonymous: its an intensive indoctrination into a religious cult, just read the steps (and 90 visits in 90 days programs)

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever you call it, 12-step programs have to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a lot like Christianity. First, recognize you're weak and hopeless. Then be thankful to God because he's going to grant you hope!

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding the 12 step program used by all xya anonymous: its an intensive indoctrination into a religious cult, just read the steps (and 90 visits in 90 days programs)

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not accurate to describe AA as a cult from anything I've read or heard (and I have a couple friends who have been helped by it). It does have a broad theistic foundation, but one which doesn't promote a specific religion, just a belief and trust in God/higher power. You will not be able to find enough or any cultic practices such as shunning or illegal threats and intimidation, to properly label it a cult*. It would however be accurate to say that they "indoctrinate" members into theism, but without the tactics of social and physical intimidation and threats that true cults use.


*The term "cult" has various theological denotations which I am not addressing here, but rather its connotations in popular culture and media, and its wrongful use as a perjorative term in this situation.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

I would like to pull this back on-topic.

If you would like to discuss 12 step programs, please start another thread.

Is alcoholism a disease like cancer or not?

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever you call it, 12-step programs have to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a lot like Christianity. First, recognize you're weak and hopeless. Then be thankful to God because he's going to grant you hope!

[/ QUOTE ]

My step-dad is a recovering alcoholic and he is a big part of the AA community where I am from. They don't have a hierarchy, exactly, but he would be high-ranking if they did. I have used my influence over him to try and combat this very issue that you are talking about. He isn't Christian, exactly, and I have argued with him many, many times about the insidious nature of the program. He now refers to the 'higher power' as a Giant Goat-Head in the Sky when he gives talks, as a way of trying to explain that it doesn't have to be real, it certainly doesn't have to be God, it can be anything.

I have a lot of negative feelings towards AA. Its success rate is extremely unimpressive, and the majority of the groups ARE like Christian cults. I honestly can't tell which has impacted which more: my feelings about Christianity effecting my opinion on AA or the other way around. I've been to more meetings than most alcoholics, probably, and I see the same theme. People who are at absolute rock-bottom, who are in desperate need of something, being told repeatedly that only God can save their worthless asses. If I spent a lot of time around missionaries perhaps I'd see the same thing, but to me is extremely distasteful.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

The question is whether any very strong addiction, with both physical and psychological components, is a disease. And also at issue is whether to be a disease, something has to be able to be cured medically. However many adverse medical conditions can result from ingestion or exposure to toxins, and decrease or go away entirely when that consumption/exposure is stopped (though there might be permanent damage but which is limited by stopping), although that ususually presumes a will to stop, as in for example habitually eating from a contaminated source (like fish from the East River).

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to pull this back on-topic.

If you would like to discuss 12 step programs, please start another thread.

Is alcoholism a disease like cancer or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, I made my post before I read this, and I apologize for the hijack.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

Is it a disease? No more than the mental "disease" that causes someone to each too much and get fat - which isn't labelled as a disease, funnily enough.

There's definitely a biological component. Some people have brains with low stress tolerance and are more subject to addictions such as alcohol, drugs or gambling and problems such as depression. They don't have a robust system for making "happy" chemicals like most others do, so in that sense, it is a disease.

But we are more than our brain chemicals, and in my experience and opinion the vast majority of people who become alcoholics do so ultimately because of an emotional choice, and if they made the decision to stop, they could. So I don't think you could classify it with other true diseases like bipolar or schizophrenia or herpes or cancer or homosexuality.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

According to the etymology, it is.

If you can classify addictions as abnormalities of the organism.

Is it curable? Is there expectation of a cure for alcoholism? Sure. Would this be warmly embraced by alcoholics?

I don't think so, and I've got several family members who are alcoholics. AA has worked with varying degrees of success, but, yes, there's an inherent Christian element to it that's all too demanding of the individual to slough his problems off onto God.

That's uncool. While an addict may not be able to think rationally about his addiction and continue on his path without regards to the damage he is causing to himself or to others, it is a voluntary disease.

And I'm not talking about willpower necessarily. An addict knows when he is abusing the substance or the alcohol, he is making an incorrect choice.

So if it is a disease, it is one with a strong degree of culpability.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

It shouldn't matter whether you call it a disease or not.
Medical groups recognize it as such because it encourages people to seek treatment and identifies it as a public health issue.

I would call it an addiction rather than a disease, myself. If there were something to call a disease, it would be the underlying propensity to become addicted. Alcoholism would then be a symptom of the disease, rather than the disease itself.

And 'cancer and homosexuality'? WTF?

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever you call it, 12-step programs have to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a lot like Christianity. First, recognize you're weak and hopeless. Then be thankful to God because he's going to grant you hope!

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not actually what makes 12 step programs 'work'. What happens is that the members change roles in the social dynamic 'game' of alcoholism. They switch from the sick alcoholic to the role of 'rescuer'. They start 'saving' other newer members and this new role keeps them from drinking. They kind of become co-dependent on members who are more sick than themselves (sometimes doing a lot of good in helping others and sometimes not).

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

Alcohol is the substance (illicit or otherwise) most seated in the foundation of our culture. Prohibition and incredibly strict enforcement would be the only way to remove alcoholism because it is flat out addictive and its use is strongly encouraged in our culture. Unfortunately prohibition is just impractical as history has shown us.


Alcoholism is a perfect example of social darwinism. Alcoholism isn't a disease because there isn't even a theoretical global cure. It's a social disease, and therefore an agent of social darwinism.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to pull this back on-topic.

If you would like to discuss 12 step programs, please start another thread.

Is alcoholism a disease like cancer or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

This question is wholly semantic and meaningless.

Alcoholism isn't analogous to cancer. It may or may not be analogous to depression. You can call it a "disease" if you want, it doesn't matter. The question is relevant not to doctors but to politicians, who are the ones who care about whether a particularly charged word is associated with a given subject or not. In psychiatric terms, it is certainly useful to label it as an illness, and that is the only thing that matters.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

Over the last 4 years of being in a college environment (a "party school" environment at that), i've seen my drinking increase pretty much exponentially to the point where I have a rediculous tolerance for alcohol that worries many of the people around me. I come from an alcholic, yet financially successful family (pretty much every male member of the family have drug/alchohol issues,) which makes me all the more dumb for getting involved with it, but for me it's seemed like such a natural part of growing up to become an alcoholic (seems sick doesn't it?) Luckily for me (if you call it lucky) i've managed to maintain my functionality despite my alcoholism, and have accomplished all of my academic goals thus far. On the surface this is all well, but beneath this, I feel my life spiralling out of control, and my dependece growing stronger to the point where I need to have a drink first thing in the morning, at lunchtime and a binge drinking session at night. I used to make fun of people who drank alone and labeled them addicts, but now it seems i'm the addict. I'm not sure the technical definition of "disease" (i'll do some research), but the best way I could classify my situation is as a mental disease, which gets worse without treatement (and i've had to attend AA more times than I want to remember for multiple alchol related incidents, have been through the 12 step program and inhouse treatment, and nothing has worked.) Sorry for the tl;dr, it's just that this is an issue that I feel pretty hopeless about, despite everything else I have going for me.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to pull this back on-topic.

If you would like to discuss 12 step programs, please start another thread.

Is alcoholism a disease like cancer or not?

[/ QUOTE ]
In my experience alcoholics are born not made. That's only based on my experience in several groups of heavy drinkers where 1) it seems clear that no amount of heavy drinking makes most people alcoholics and 2) The alcoholics have a completely different relationship with drinking than the rest of us.

chez

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

Whether or not it's a "disease" is semantics, it depends how you define disease.

I have mild tendencies towards alcoholism myself. If it wasn't going to do me any damage, I'd probably drink a bottle of wine every night. When I start drinking I find it difficult to stop, so I tend not to start most days.

If I felt I had a problem bad enough to require more serious action, I'd go with the Rational Recovery approach rather than AA. As they say there:

[ QUOTE ]
• Addiction recovery is not a group project; it is an individual responsibility. You are ultimately on your own.

• There are no Rational Recovery groups anywhere in the world! Your desire for “support” is nothing more, and nothing less, than a plan to get loaded in the absence of support.

• Stay away from recovery groups of all kinds; you can’t possibly recover there. They’ll never let you go, and you’ll be “in recovery” forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Paul Phillips talks about it here. The way he describes his drinking sounds similar to me.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

No one's taken Phil's bait wtf?

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
No one's taken Phil's bait wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]
we recognise Phil's condition as a disease.

chez

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

bait?

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

oh that phil. never mind.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it a disease? No more than the mental "disease" that causes someone to each too much and get fat - which isn't labelled as a disease, funnily enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Obesity is a Chronic Disease
The American Obesity Association (AOA) believes that obesity is a disease. We want obesity understood by the health care community and patients as a serious disease of epidemic portions.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.obesity.org/treatment/obesity.shtml

I agree btw, I don't think any form of addiction is a disease exactly. That said, forms of addiction which cause serious physiological suffering to anyone who tries to quit (heroin, crystal meth, etc) should be recognised as being in a different class to, say, shopping or sex "addictions".

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

ChrisV - With obesity, the overabundance of fat on your body is the disease, not the mental weakness/addiction that causes you to shovel food into your mouth until you turn into an unhealthy blob.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

Well, OK, but when people talk about an "obesity epidemic" in the Western world, what they mean is people eating too much and not exercising enough. Of course you can be obese without that, but any classification of obesity as a disease would effectively classify being a lazy overeater as a disease.

The difference between that and, say, cirrhosis of the liver, another disease secondary to an addiction, is that you can't cure cirrhosis of the liver by not drinking anymore, whereas you can (in many cases) cure obesity by eating a good diet and getting your fat ass off the couch.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

How to test if something is a disease.

1. Offer sufferer $1,000,000,000 to stop smoking, drinking, having cancer, eating to much, having diabetes etc for one week

2. If they accept it's not a disease!

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
How to test if something is a disease.

1. Offer sufferer $1,000,000,000 to stop smoking, drinking, having cancer, eating to much, having diabetes etc for one week

2. If they accept it's not a disease!

[/ QUOTE ]

If they accept or if they carry out the deal? Obviously everyone would accept. The question is, would they be able to deliver?

This is a good point. What do you think the alcoholic would do if offered this deal? He would probably spend every dime he had on every possible treatment plan, take it incredibly seriously, pay someone huge amounts to follow him around all day and prevent him from drinking, etc. He could probably win this bet. But aren't the previously listed things, then, just the 'cure?'

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How to test if something is a disease.

1. Offer sufferer $1,000,000,000 to stop smoking, drinking, having cancer, eating to much, having diabetes etc for one week

2. If they accept it's not a disease!

[/ QUOTE ]

If they accept or if they carry out the deal? Obviously everyone would accept. The question is, would they be able to deliver?

This is a good point. What do you think the alcoholic would do if offered this deal? He would probably spend every dime he had on every possible treatment plan, take it incredibly seriously, pay someone huge amounts to follow him around all day and prevent him from drinking, etc. He could probably win this bet. But aren't the previously listed things, then, just the 'cure?'

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, 'alcoholism' is not equivalent to 'drinking'. I think pretty much everyone would agree that cessation of drinking for one week doesn't make you any less of an alcoholic.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How to test if something is a disease.

1. Offer sufferer $1,000,000,000 to stop smoking, drinking, having cancer, eating to much, having diabetes etc for one week

2. If they accept it's not a disease!

[/ QUOTE ]

If they accept or if they carry out the deal? Obviously everyone would accept. The question is, would they be able to deliver?

This is a good point. What do you think the alcoholic would do if offered this deal? He would probably spend every dime he had on every possible treatment plan, take it incredibly seriously, pay someone huge amounts to follow him around all day and prevent him from drinking, etc. He could probably win this bet. But aren't the previously listed things, then, just the 'cure?'

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, 'alcoholism' is not equivalent to 'drinking'. I think pretty much everyone would agree that cessation of drinking for one week doesn't make you any less of an alcoholic.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree, it is sort of question-begging. Thats only true if there is some actual thing or disease which we can call alcoholism. If alcoholism ISNT a disease, but is simply a description of a behavior, then you aren't an alcoholic as soon as you stop drinking, getting fired from jobs, beating your wife, or whatever.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How to test if something is a disease.

1. Offer sufferer $1,000,000,000 to stop smoking, drinking, having cancer, eating to much, having diabetes etc for one week

2. If they accept it's not a disease!

[/ QUOTE ]

If they accept or if they carry out the deal? Obviously everyone would accept. The question is, would they be able to deliver?

This is a good point. What do you think the alcoholic would do if offered this deal? He would probably spend every dime he had on every possible treatment plan, take it incredibly seriously, pay someone huge amounts to follow him around all day and prevent him from drinking, etc. He could probably win this bet. But aren't the previously listed things, then, just the 'cure?'

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm an alcoholic, and I have to say that I don't think it is a disease, and for $1,000,000,000 I would immediately quit drinking for life.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How to test if something is a disease.

1. Offer sufferer $1,000,000,000 to stop smoking, drinking, having cancer, eating to much, having diabetes etc for one week

2. If they accept it's not a disease!

[/ QUOTE ]

If they accept or if they carry out the deal? Obviously everyone would accept. The question is, would they be able to deliver?

This is a good point. What do you think the alcoholic would do if offered this deal? He would probably spend every dime he had on every possible treatment plan, take it incredibly seriously, pay someone huge amounts to follow him around all day and prevent him from drinking, etc. He could probably win this bet. But aren't the previously listed things, then, just the 'cure?'

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, 'alcoholism' is not equivalent to 'drinking'. I think pretty much everyone would agree that cessation of drinking for one week doesn't make you any less of an alcoholic.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree, it is sort of question-begging. Thats only true if there is some actual thing or disease which we can call alcoholism. If alcoholism ISNT a disease, but is simply a description of a behavior, then you aren't an alcoholic as soon as you stop drinking, getting fired from jobs, beating your wife, or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this does need to be better defined, but a comparison to a cancer patient in remission seems apt here. (Not towards the severity of the disease, but the stages)

Like the cancer can return at anytime, so can the tendency to drink. That isn't to imply that alcoholism is as severe as cancer. Just that it may be a more complex disorder than it appears to be on the surface.

The million dollar analogy is very flawed, by the way. It'd certainly be enough of an inducement for the voluntary addictions. Especially for the fairly high subset among them that are manipulative and can easily rationalize giving up their favorite thing for a week, if it brings them a lifetime of indulgence in said addictions.

For those that are willing to equate reliance and dependency on seemingly voluntary substances, with the exception of food, whereas it's an overindulgence...

Can a diabetic or cancer patient be said to have been weak at some point in his or her life that they are culpable of their own diseases? While there is a higher degree of potential self-help in regards to addictions, it is also true that if a diabetic or cancer sufferer does not take the appropriate means to lessen the disease's impact on their physical and probably mental states, the diseases can have a worse effect.

Along these lines, the same is also true of addictions. There's a co-dependent effect on the body, mind, and substance that mirrors the parasitic effects of a disease. The emotional impacts can be the same. The disagreement follows mostly in the societal view that determines that some things are a weakness of the will, and some are unavoidable.

<shrugs> Or to simplify things, how would you immediately judge a diabetic that decided to suddenly slam down gallons of cola and eat chocolate bars?

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

This far, and no mention of Thomas Szasz? It's extremely difficult to define addictions as diseases without conjuring up moral judgments. Analogize it to homosexuality. Used to be a disease; now it isn't. What's the difference? Society stopped condemning it, so it was removed from the DSM. Both alcoholics and homosexuals engage in lifestyles that others condemn. Presumably they do so because such a lifestyle is still superior to the alternatives. The homosexual lives openly and has homosexual relationships--even if this distresses his religiously conservative family, and perhaps even causes him to get shunned--because the alternatives (celibacy; faked heterosexuality, etc.) are even worse. The alcoholic drinks away his paycheck, even if it distresses his family, causes him to lose his family, lose his job, become homeless, get cirrhosis, etc. because the alternative (sobering up) is even worse.

Without invoking the judgmental term "addiction," it's literally impossible to distinguish the choice to consume large quantities of alcohol with the choice to have intercourse with members of the same sex, to have no sex at all, to live as a hippie in a commune, to work 80 hours a week, to own 100 cats, to trek across Antarctica, or a million other lifestyle choices that we consider unusual, but not insane.

Before anyone invokes brain chemistry, there is also evidence that certain groups--such as homosexuals, or risk takers--have different brain chemistry than "normal" people. Are they diseased? Why or why not? What we end up with is finding that alcoholism or any other "addiction" is a disease largely because people morally condemn the choices such individuals make, not because there is any sort of scientific shibboleth which separates such behavior from other unpopular behavior.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How to test if something is a disease.

1. Offer sufferer $1,000,000,000 to stop smoking, drinking, having cancer, eating to much, having diabetes etc for one week

2. If they accept it's not a disease!

[/ QUOTE ]

If they accept or if they carry out the deal? Obviously everyone would accept. The question is, would they be able to deliver?

This is a good point. What do you think the alcoholic would do if offered this deal? He would probably spend every dime he had on every possible treatment plan, take it incredibly seriously, pay someone huge amounts to follow him around all day and prevent him from drinking, etc. He could probably win this bet. But aren't the previously listed things, then, just the 'cure?'

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, 'alcoholism' is not equivalent to 'drinking'. I think pretty much everyone would agree that cessation of drinking for one week doesn't make you any less of an alcoholic.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree, it is sort of question-begging. Thats only true if there is some actual thing or disease which we can call alcoholism. If alcoholism ISNT a disease, but is simply a description of a behavior, then you aren't an alcoholic as soon as you stop drinking, getting fired from jobs, beating your wife, or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think a certain % would drink some time after getting the million, even if they knew if caught they would have to give it back?

I get the point your trying to make but I don't think it's so cut and dry. I think some would drink after collecting the million, albeit maybe in 'secret' risking loosing it all. If I am correct, that is a strong case for alcoholism not being such a simple matter of choice.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How to test if something is a disease.

1. Offer sufferer $1,000,000,000 to stop smoking, drinking, having cancer, eating to much, having diabetes etc for one week

2. If they accept it's not a disease!

[/ QUOTE ]

If they accept or if they carry out the deal? Obviously everyone would accept. The question is, would they be able to deliver?

This is a good point. What do you think the alcoholic would do if offered this deal? He would probably spend every dime he had on every possible treatment plan, take it incredibly seriously, pay someone huge amounts to follow him around all day and prevent him from drinking, etc. He could probably win this bet. But aren't the previously listed things, then, just the 'cure?'

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, 'alcoholism' is not equivalent to 'drinking'. I think pretty much everyone would agree that cessation of drinking for one week doesn't make you any less of an alcoholic.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree, it is sort of question-begging. Thats only true if there is some actual thing or disease which we can call alcoholism. If alcoholism ISNT a disease, but is simply a description of a behavior, then you aren't an alcoholic as soon as you stop drinking, getting fired from jobs, beating your wife, or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think a certain % would drink some time after getting the million, even if they knew if caught they would have to give it back?

I get the point your trying to make but I don't think it's so cut and dry. I think some would drink after collecting the million, albeit maybe in 'secret' risking loosing it all. If I am correct, that is a strong case for alcoholism not being such a simple matter of choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think some probably would, but even if they didn't, it doesn't mean they didn't have a disease. It just meant that a whole truckload of money was the cure for the disease.

My point was really just that the previous posters metric for determining what is a disease and what isn't is ineffective.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

Disease and addiction and behavior and willpower and all that jazz are all related. It's just the extent that they are related which we use to call a disease.

Some people have more willpower than others; some people have more addictive personalities than others; some drugs and actions have in them or create higher chemical levels than others..... all these interact. Usually addicted people are addicted to something because of an emotional problem... i.e. family or personal issues, but then the drug/act takes over.

Things like cocaine and heroin are much more addictive than other things like pot and alcohol--that is, the number of people who cannot handle them in a responsible way is far greater (in proportion) than those that cannot handle alcohol or pot in a responsible way.

This is how I base my beliefs on what should be legal and what shouldn't---how destructive the thing is or can be, and how many people cannot handle it. The proportion of addicted gamblers is far less than the proportion of crack addicts, when you compare the total number of people who have to those that now cannot handle themselves with it.

Hence, for some people alcoholism really is a disease, out of their control, for some people it isn't. There are probably many alcoholics who it is NOT a disease for, and of course many that it is.

There is not either/or for stuff like this. All those components mix and are different for everybody.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Without invoking the judgmental term "addiction," it's literally impossible to distinguish the choice to consume large quantities of alcohol with the choice to have intercourse with members of the same sex, to have no sex at all, to live as a hippie in a commune, to work 80 hours a week, to own 100 cats, to trek across Antarctica, or a million other lifestyle choices that we consider unusual, but not insane.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mmmhmmm. How many of these activities can result in seizures if you stop them?

You DO realize that 'addiction' is not just a judgemental term, and that some substances result in withdrawal symptoms, while others do not, right?

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Without invoking the judgmental term "addiction," it's literally impossible to distinguish the choice to consume large quantities of alcohol with the choice to have intercourse with members of the same sex, to have no sex at all, to live as a hippie in a commune, to work 80 hours a week, to own 100 cats, to trek across Antarctica, or a million other lifestyle choices that we consider unusual, but not insane.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mmmhmmm. How many of these activities can result in seizures if you stop them?

You DO realize that 'addiction' is not just a judgemental term, and that some substances result in withdrawal symptoms, while others do not, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats more 'physical dependence' than addiction. Physical dependance is usually a part of an addiction, but you can be addicted without it. The definition of an addiction is the continued use of a substance in the face of adverse consequences. What this means is that I can drink 12 beers every single night, and as long as I show up for work every morning, have good personal relationships, and don't have any adverse health effects, I'm not an alcoholic. But if my boss tells me he's getting tired of me being groggy in the morning and I keep drinking anyway, I am an addict.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Without invoking the judgmental term "addiction," it's literally impossible to distinguish the choice to consume large quantities of alcohol with the choice to have intercourse with members of the same sex, to have no sex at all, to live as a hippie in a commune, to work 80 hours a week, to own 100 cats, to trek across Antarctica, or a million other lifestyle choices that we consider unusual, but not insane.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mmmhmmm. How many of these activities can result in seizures if you stop them?

You DO realize that 'addiction' is not just a judgemental term, and that some substances result in withdrawal symptoms, while others do not, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats more 'physical dependence' than addiction. Physical dependance is usually a part of an addiction, but you can be addicted without it. The definition of an addiction is the continued use of a substance in the face of adverse consequences. What this means is that I can drink 12 beers every single night, and as long as I show up for work every morning, have good personal relationships, and don't have any adverse health effects, I'm not an alcoholic. But if my boss tells me he's getting tired of me being groggy in the morning and I keep drinking anyway, I am an addict.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be that as it may, I had no trouble distinguishing alcoholism from 'hippieism'...

As someone above said, we are indeed talking semantics. But to equate alcoholism and chastity is a bit of a stretch no matter how you define things.

Re: The \"disease\" of alcoholism.
 

instead of quitting drinking see if an alcholic could have three beers and stop. that would be a much truer test and a much harder one.