Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

This post is inspired by a disagreement between two of my married friends. I happen to know the husband a little better but both people are very nice individuals. (hope he doesn’t read 2+2! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])


Here’s the deal. My friend’s wife recently graduated law school. She has interviewed for several positions and has decided to take the lower paying job offer. As I understand it, this position is more like a law clerk than a lawyer. It is a govt job. She likes the people and also the hours (fewer hours than some of the other jobs she was considering). I imagine it is also less stress.

Her husband is not at all happy with the decision. Not only is he irritated that she accepted the lower paying job but now he is projecting into the future and has surmised that she will never be ambitious and will continue to be a clerk forever. My assurances that this will not happen fall on deaf ears.


Maybe it’s because I’m a girl that I tend to side with the wife. I think it’s her life and her job so she can pick whatever she wants. What’s wrong with working as a lower-paid lawyer? He says of course she can choose what she wants but he feels resentful that he spent so many years supporting her and going into debt and is disappointed with her choice. I think he feels she owes him more. I told him to chill out and to be glad she found a job and that she did really well in school. I think he should be proud of her. She is a very smart girl but like me she is a little quiet and not exactly aggressive.

My friend seems extremely pissed about the whole thing. He thinks that as a couple they agreed she would go to law school with the understanding that she would work in corporate law when she got out. I believe he feels a little defrauded or something.

What do you guys think?

How much do spouses owe each other to land that lucrative job? If one spouse works while the other goes to school, how obligated is the student spouse to find a job worthy of her mate’s standards?

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

What spouses owe each other is unconditional support. There might be trade offs in the gov. job- better hours, pension, medical benefits, vacation time. How does she become his slave once she graduates?

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

It's hard for me to sympathize with the guy. Even if they had an understanding about this before she went to law school, it makes no sense to expect the wife to know what she'll want to do before attending. And it makes even less sense to require her to abide by an agreement if she changes her mind.

If this guy really needs the obvious pointed out to him, ask him how much he wants to live with someone who hates her job.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

I think his standards don't really count here, but what does count is that she's taking a job that can keep them both living comfortably. If she's taking a job that will barely pay off her student loans, I can see why he would be annoyed.

From his perspective, he just spend a number of years supporting her and making sacrifices in expectation of some payoff later on with a higher standard of living. This of course should have been communicated from the outset so that things like this don't come up, but married couples are just as likely to screw up communications as anyone else.

If she got a job that makes reasonable pay even though she could have had a job that makes fantastic pay, then, well, they just need to work it out and he needs to deal with the fact that her happiness is very important or she'll burn out and end up with no job at all.

If she took a job that doesn't even meet what we'll crudely call her "minimal financial responsibilities" then I side with the husband a lot more. It is extremely frustrating to help support someone financially for years only to come to the realization that it's not ending when you thought it would be, and you may be doing this for the rest of your life because you love the person.

I'm probably projecting a bit on this one because I have similar issues sometimes. My wife is a huge spender. She also, fortunately, does well for herself despite having no college degree. She is a supervisor in an operations department for a bank, and makes a reasonable amount of money, however, she tends to spend more than she makes which of course comes out of my income. I on the other hand am an extreme tightwad who tries desperately to save every penny towards retirement, so our spending habits often come into conflict. Over the years I have had to reconcile in my head that her spending habits are unlikely to change, and I need to decide if my love for my wife is worth more to me than the stress she creates for me when she goes on spending sprees. Obviously it does, and thus I've learned to "deal," much as the husband in this case probably will need to.

But in my case, my wife is at least trying. She has a good job. She helps me with one of my consulting business. She's trying to do her part to bring in the income, and that goes a long way in my book. The few times she's talked about wanting to be a stay at home mom have been the worse times of our marriage because it becomes much harder to reconcile her desire to spend large amounts of money when she's no longer even trying to make any, and I can see my dream of being able to retire going down the drain.

Woo, that was long. Sorry. Just trying to add another perspective to this thread.

Ray

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

I didn't know what a Law Clerk was, so I wikipedia'd it:

[ QUOTE ]
In the United States and Canada, a law clerk is a person who provides assistance to a judge in researching issues before the court and in writing opinions. Those unfamiliar with court operations often incorrectly assume that a law clerk is a court clerk or courtroom deputy, essentially a secretary for the court. To the contrary, a law clerkship is one of the most prestigious and highly-coveted jobs in the legal profession.

Working as a judicial law clerk at any level of government is generally considered to be a prestigious occupation within the legal field. It tells others in the legal profession that an individual came out of law school with enough competence and legal intelligence to earn a judge's trust and heavily influence his or her decisions. Working as a law clerk generally opens up vast career opportunities.

[/ QUOTE ]

If she is indeed a law clerk, seems like she just needs to sell it better to him.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

There are many flavors of law clerks. Some positions are, indeed, quite prestigious. But not all are.

Whatever the particular position is that she is considering, I doubt that accepting it will close off opportunities that she otherwise would have had.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

Clerking for a judge is a stepping stone to prestigious, higher-paying jobs... but it sounds like she's choosing to be a permanent law clerk type... like a legal researcher for some gov't entity. That is not prestigious and does not pay well.

I have a number of conflicting opinions on this.

First of all, I worked at a big law firm for 4 years to pay off my law school loans, and it SUCKED. I hated that job with a passion. I hated having school loans too. Ugh, hated it. I can certainly understand why she would not want to take that kind of job.

I also am a little amused that this guy expects his wife to bring in truckloads of cash. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but it's my impression that generally speaking, the husband is usually going to be the prime breadwinner in the family, especially when kids come along. I don't know of many husbands who expect their wives to be cash machines.

But on the other hand, if they decided that the wife was going to go to law school for the specific purpose of earning a lot more money for the family, and made the conscious decision to go into debt, etc., with the idea that this was an investment in a more lucrative future, then I would sympathize with him completely. How specific did they discuss this beforehand, and did the wife know at the jump that this was designed to bump up the family's earning power?

Fourth, even if that was the case, a person is allowed to change her mind, and no one should feel like she has to take a certain job or career to live for someone else or to generate wads of cash. I left my law career to take a job that basically paid nothing, and it would have been nice for my ex-wife to be a little supportive instead of bitching at me all the time about how I had "sold her a bill of goods" (nice, huh?) Of course, we were able to solve that problem by getting divorced and me giving her the house.

On the other other hand, her position was fairly reasonable... i.e., when we got married, you were cranking cash as a lawyer, and now you want to be a broke sportscaster? This goes back to what the husband's expectations were before the wife ever started law school.

On balance, I say I side with the wife. She shouldn't feel like she has to take the best-paying job she's offered, and he shouldn't feel like his spouse 'owes him' any particular level of income. But... she should understand his resentment, to a point, and figure out a good way to tackle the school debt so he doesn't feel like he's made all these sacrifices for nothing.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

How big are the differences in pay?

I can sympathize with both parties on this, and think both should have input in decisions like this. At the very least, he should be able to express his thoughts and feelings about it prior to her making the decision.

From his standpoint, he's sacrificed a lot for her career already and just when he sees light at the end of the tunnel, she's stopping the train. He sacrificed because she asked him too. Now she's not willing to buck up and work a little harder and/or overcome her insecurities to do her part in supporting the family. It's perfectly understandable that he'd be disappointed and frustrated.

She really needs to try to communicate to him exactly why she's taking the job that she is, assuming it's not just because she's lazy. I'm guessing it is largely out of fear or insecurity that she's taking the easier, less visible job. If that's the case, maybe they can talk her through it. His support can go a long way in helping her through that, but it's difficult to support someone who just wants the easy way out.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

The husband needs to get over it, or move along.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

I don't have much time on this, but my wife and I have a similar situation, so I will have more to say on it. But, really quickly, here's the mistake she may be making. Depending on the nature of the job, she's taking, she may be stuck in it permanently. That first job out of law school is important. If it's some run of the mill government job, they'll be no chance to ramp up later if she decides to go for it. If she took the harder, higher paying job and decided she hated it, she could always step down to the government job. This may be an important consideration, and he realizes it, but she doesn't. More later.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

As I said before, it is unlikely that the person considering the job is cutting herself off from future opportunities. This is why.

(1) If the clerkship is the prestigious type, she will be even better positioned afterwards for a high-paying job at a firm.
(2) If she was in position for a prestigious clerkship, I highly doubt that she is now looking at a "run of the mill" position that will adversely affect her future chances of getting a high-paying gig.
(3) If the position she is not considering isn't that prestigious, then she probably was not going to get a job with a prominent law firm anyway.
(4) Contrary to what many think, employers understand that people make mistakes in deciding upon their first job. Indeed, the vast majority of lawyers end up seeking a new position within a few years. I have difficulty imaginging a scenario where one's initial job choice (in law) amounts to a permanent mistake.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

What she owes him is being satisfied with his happiness, regardless of his paycheck. The same as he owes her.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
(4) Contrary to what many think, employers understand that people make mistakes in deciding upon their first job. Indeed, the vast majority of lawyers end up seeking a new position within a few years. I have difficulty imaginging a scenario where one's initial job choice (in law) amounts to a permanent mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

The above poster/post makes a good point. Also, I think that this is a sensitive issue that the spouses should work out between themselves. No offense to the OP, but I believe there are serious communication problems in this marriage if the OP is so heavily involved in the discussion.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

RayPowers -

Very nice post. You have done a nice job at sort of summing up my friends main argument.


[ QUOTE ]
If she took a job that doesn't even meet what we'll crudely call her "minimal financial responsibilities" then I side with the husband a lot more. It is extremely frustrating to help support someone financially for years only to come to the realization that it's not ending when you thought it would be, and you may be doing this for the rest of your life because you love the person.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would say he is extremely frustrated at this point and feeling a little worried about the future. I think he feels like he is now "trapped" in his own grind of a job.



[ QUOTE ]
From his perspective, he just spend a number of years supporting her and making sacrifices in expectation of some payoff later on with a higher standard of living. This of course should have been communicated from the outset so that things like this don't come up, but married couples are just as likely to screw up communications as anyone else.


[/ QUOTE ]


This was communicated at the outset and one thing I failed to mention is that my friend had entertained ideas of returning to school himself so I believe he was hoping she would get a high paying job that would address her student loans and car payment while still allowing him to return to school. Not sure if this piece of information is important to the original question which I guess I feel is this:

Given two people who have incurred a lot of debt, do they owe each other the highest paying job they can manage to find and are they obligated to live up to earlier agreements if on down the road they have had a change of heart?

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

Oh Katy, you're pulling the ole trick of changing the hypothetical.

I think it matters a lot if there was an understanding that the husband would go back to school for a while. I'm much more sympathetic to him there. Also, it suggests that the concern is more short-term, than long-term. It's one thing to ask a spouse to do something they don't find appealing for a few years; it's much different to ask them to do it permanently.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

Damn. did I screw that up? Should I delete that last post then? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]


No Wynton, I really do not think there was an agreement or even an understanding that the husband would return to school after the wife graduated. I believe he has pondered the possibility in his head...like "yeah that would be cool someday" type of way. I don't think they ever agreed that she would go and then he would go.

I think he just had dreams that they would be rolling in the dough like DrewDevil said. I think he was really hoping she would bring in truckloads of cash and sort of open up possibilities for him as well as take the burden off his shoulders where it came to their debts and loans. Now, he feels disgusted and well, still trapped.



Edited to say:

By "agreement" what I meant was her original agreement to find work in corporate law not an agreement that she would go to school first and then he would follow. I think this was more an idea in his own head then any concrete part of an agreement.

(man I'm confusing myself now!)

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

I think the real problem the husband has is that he's worked a lot of years at jobs without the luxury of considering whether he liked them or not. A job had pay well enough to support his family to even be considered. He resents that his wife wants the choice of picking a "fun" job. He's never had that choice.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

bingo. I think you may be exactly right.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What spouses owe each other is unconditional support. There might be trade offs in the gov. job- better hours, pension, medical benefits, vacation time. How does she become his slave once she graduates?

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[ QUOTE ]
What she owes him is being satisfied with his happiness, regardless of his paycheck. The same as he owes her.

[/ QUOTE ]

These kind of answers are silly and just completely unrealistic.

Unconditional support? Wtf? Is he supposed to support her is she decides to become a bank robber? People in real relationships don't agree with everything their partners decide. Relationships are about comproimise and sacrifice and consideration of each other's feelings, not unconditional support. It doesn't sound at all like he's not suggesting she become his slave. But it does sound like he's been very supportive and would like some support in return. When it's something that impacts your partner in a significant way, as this does, they have a right to an opinion and some say in the decision. I'm not saying he should have all the say or even the final say, but they really need to discuiss the reasons behind her decision.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The husband needs to get over it, or move along.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd let my wife do whatever she wants to do as long as she isn't touching any other dudes.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What she owes him is being satisfied with his happiness, regardless of his paycheck. The same as he owes her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

Is it any wonder why there's a 60% divorce rate?

b

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

I think the wife owes him a kick in the nuts.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

Colt,
I agree with everything you say except-
yes, give support that is unconditional or get out of the relationship.
If you are living with a compromised and sacrificial attitude, then wrong partner.
Isn’t he proud and happy to have put her through school and that she is smart enough not to want to work for these corporate demons? Does he regret his sacrifices?
Was she doing nothing but eating chocolate and drinking champagne while he was working, or was she also contributing?
How has financial score keeping replaced the values that brought them together?
And most of all, any attempts to make decisions for the future that negate the importance of the moment are doomed.
To explain my taking an extreme position, I guess that I am too much a student of Baba Ram Das and “Be Here Now”.
Is this really just a question of who will submit to the other, and now he feels that it is her turn to do so?

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

This is a lousy situation, and really this is not what marriage is about. Sacrifice should not be about expecting rewards. However, there does need to be some give and take, and if she sold him on getting her through law school so she could get a great job, it's a bit much she's changed her mind. Howver, he does need to get over it.

And Katy, while I know you have a good heart and probably will try not to, there's never, ever, EVER a good time to take sides in a couple's problems. Offer sympathy, comfort and kind words, but NEVER take sides or say a bad thing about one to the other. This can only lead to one, other or both resenting you in the end at some point.

But I think you're wise enough to know all this already.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

My statement wasn't intended to be universal or literal. I thought that was clear, but I have a personal hatred of platitudes so it's fair to be called on it.

So I'll clarify. I don't think marriage can ever be about love and money. It's not more your wife's responsibility to pay you than it is your boss's responsibility to sleep with you (God help you if your wife is your boss). Obviously if there's some agreed-upon arrangement (like, the husband will cover all expenses) and then significant financial problems arise as a result of one partner's actions (say, the husband decides he doesn't feel like working), then even the most loving relationship will be strained.

However, this is clearly not the situation here. We have a double income, no kids pairing in which each partner apparently makes considerably more than the median household income for the wealthiest nation on earth. Also I assume that this wasn't a marriage of convenience. These two people supposedly care more about each other than anyone (if not anything) else, and have decided to express a life-long commitment to one another in the strongest possible terms. And he's rocking the boat because she won't buy him a bigger television set?

I think that's out of line, any way you look at it.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

The husband is a tool. It isn't all about the check. Happiness is a big part. He should be happy she isn't just sitting home on her ass.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a lousy situation, and really this is not what marriage is about. Sacrifice should not be about expecting rewards. However, there does need to be some give and take, and if she sold him on getting her through law school so she could get a great job, it's a bit much she's changed her mind. Howver, he does need to get over it.

And Katy, while I know you have a good heart and probably will try not to, there's never, ever, EVER a good time to take sides in a couple's problems. Offer sympathy, comfort and kind words, but NEVER take sides or say a bad thing about one to the other. This can only lead to one, other or both resenting you in the end at some point.

But I think you're wise enough to know all this already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
as a couple they agreed

[/ QUOTE ]

This strikes me as the real crux of the problem, which isn't the first impression one might get on hearing this story. Everybody can understand doing what you love, etc., so it's hard not to root for the wife doing what she wants to do.

But I'm sure the husband would much rather have had the time and effort back he plowed into her law career, and that both were sacrifices that were undertaken because, well, "as a couple they agreed," which is exactly what couples at their best with each other should do. The two of them undertook a long mutual effort together, the husband even going into debt over it, and then one of them, after reaping the benefit, renegs on the deal.

Ouch, that smarts! Law school is EXPENSIVE!, and the husband going into debt for it is doing all that someone reasonably can for a mate. That's serious debt, at least for most people.

Going back on the agreement is a terrible idea. I think the husband is right that this decision making reflects exceptionally poorly on his wife.

First of all, it's a violation of what both agreed to and what was sacrificed for by them as a couple. And it sounds like, since it's the hubby that went into debt for it, one half of the couple sacrified more than the other -- one was basically the giver, the other the exceedingly lucky recipient.

Second, taking the road less challenging and remunerative is not a temporary thing. It is going to mess up her resume big time. The good law jobs are quite competitive, and someone graduating law school and then deciding to immediately take the chance to make the least of it is going to make future employers very leery of hiring her. It's not even like she's being a poverty lawyer or something that doesn't necessarily pay well but has some kind of other benefit -- she's becoming a glorified clerk! Wow!

Third, if she went into corporate law for a while, she could at least pay off the debt of law school so the couple came back to some semblance, though it would never really be there, of breaking even on her law school debt.

A job doesn't have to be a lifetime commitment. Fulfilling her promise to her partner should matter VERY MUCH to her. She could do that, set the couple's future up much better financially, and still go off tilting at windmills or taking the mommy track later on. It would be far from a terrible or permanent outcome for her to be responsible for a few years before making a change.

It's also a lot easier to move down than up. If she got going in a real law career, her ability to find great jobs in the future, even if she has no interest in corporate law, would be vastly greater than it is now. She could surely do better for her heart and soul after five or seven years of real lawyering will give her experience and perspective people will find valuable.

Anyway, all these reasons work for me, but the center of it is still that they made an agreement as a couple and then one side backed out of it after getting what she wanted. That is just dirty pool and shows terrible character. I feel terrible for the husband, and only hope at the pathetic chance that the wife is merely obliviously selfish and not studiedly so.

If this relationship lasts, I'd bet it could be really rough on the husband. After all, the precedent has just been set -- his wife's word is no good, and even years of sacrifice and doing the right thing on his part don't matter to her. It can only get worse from here, since she knows the respect and honesty only has to go one way. I predict affairs on both their parts -- the only question is, who first? And how long does this relationship last? Maybe she already got what she wants. Oh well, at least somebody did.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What spouses owe each other is unconditional support. There might be trade offs in the gov. job- better hours, pension, medical benefits, vacation time. How does she become his slave once she graduates?

[/ QUOTE ]

Piradical,

Obviously she doesn't become his slave. The question is, how obligated is a spouse to stick to an agreement she made at the beginning of her law studies? Sounds like people are pretty split. Some are saying that she's not obligated at all and the husband is a tool, other people are saying that the husband has a valid gripe.

Anyway, I agree with you about the better hours, medical benefits and pension, etc. I'm sure those things were a consideration.


I'm not sure I understand your statement of "unconditional support" though. I think I'm with Colt on this issue. Are couples always supposed to give each other unconditional support? I mean in an ideal world this would be awesome. I just don't know too many people who can live up to it, especially when finances are at risk and personalities clash.

I don't know, I just think unconditional support is probably unrealistic. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Oh God, look what a cynic I've become.


By the way, I think my friend was very supportive for years and I've no doubt he will continue to try to be supportive. Right now he is just a little pissed. He’ll come around.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He’ll come around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Undoubtedly. That is the saddest part.

What choice does he have, after all? Plenty of people wouldn't take any of them.

But hearts have memories. A smooth surface doesn't mean there has been any healing. Sometimes it just means things are waiting.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

H should be concerned about the grass being greener. There could definitely be some l o n g a r s e hours at a gigasmic law firm. They have to bill an extraordinary amount of hours which means they have to put in an s load of hours. we're talking 80+ hour weeks. I work 3rd shift taking calls from these people doing legal research and I get calls from CA when it's midnite there, from NY when it's 5AM, from the midwest at 3am, etc.

they are often stressed out b/c the partner they are working for is insistent that there must be a case that says what they want.

then after you put three / four plus miserable years in at the firm, if you decide to stay, you're often still looking at long hours and many of these firms are no longer offering partnership to their associates.

In short, it's a treadmill. I think W should do what she thinks will make her happier. There is something to be said for job security and if this is a permanent gov't type clerkship, especially if it's federal, there will be solid benefits, minimal risk of termination and a livable wage. If I was W I might do what she did. I can also see doing the higher wage thing for a few years, get out of debt, etc. But I don't think it's fair for H to demand it.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

A promise is a promise. If you can't trust a promise from the one you love, who can you trust, and what good are they? Hubby shouldn't be thought of as "demanding" for wanting the person he might trust and love most in the world to follow through with her years-long, expensive in terms of more than just money promise to him and not let him down. It's unfair to think that only one person in this situation has feelings.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

unconditional support of one's spouse is neither expected or ideal. one ought to be supportive whenever warranted, reasonable and proper, but blindly standing behind the mate's decisions is an act of betrayal to each party involved as well as to the relationship itself.

to say that the husband in the op must accept his wife's decision makes her desires of greatest import without consideration to the many other factors that must be included in the discussion. the husband's feelings, desires, the financial realities, etc. must all be taken into account with an attempt at the best resolution to follow.

this really is a very personal situation, as in, not something to which sweeping generalizations can be applied. those involved need to examine all angles with love, care, and understanding. both perspectives are legitimate.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are living with a compromised and sacrificial attitude, then wrong partner.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good luck finding a relationship where you never have to compromise or sacrifice. I'd argue there has probably never been such a relationship.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I'll clarify. I don't think marriage can ever be about love and money. It's not more your wife's responsibility to pay you than it is your boss's responsibility to sleep with you (God help you if your wife is your boss).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm clearly not saying she owes him money. What I am saying is that he worked while she went to school. What he did by doing so was to make an investment in the couple's financial future. It's clear he viewed it that way, and I'd guess they probably discussed it.

We're not talking about a basketweaving class at the local community college that she's taking for fun. We're talking about 2-3 years and a buttload of money (I think the average is like $80k!) and him taking care of domestic things and not seeing her while she attends class, does homework, etc. This is similar to him taking the $80k and saying he's going to invest it in something for the couple's retirement, but instead she goes on an $80k shopping spree because that's what makes her happy.

By the way, I hope I'm not coming off as overly argumentative on this. I really do see the other side of the argument and think that above all, they really need to talk about this and explain why they each feel the way do about it.

Also, I'm still of the belief that she's making a choice based mostly on fear. Katy's description of her makes me think she really lacks self confidence and is taking the easy way out. Perhaps if they talked this through and he showed his support for her and confidence in her, he could show her that she can do the tougher job. It might lead to a lot of good things for her beyond just career issues.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

Diebitter wrote:

[ QUOTE ]


And Katy, while I know you have a good heart and probably will try not to, there's never, ever, EVER a good time to take sides in a couple's problems. Offer sympathy, comfort and kind words, but NEVER take sides or say a bad thing about one to the other. This can only lead to one, other or both resenting you in the end at some point.

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odellthurman wrote:
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No offense to the OP, but I believe there are serious communication problems in this marriage if the OP is so heavily involved in the discussion.


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Db and Odellthurman (that name cracks me up for some reason),

Let me assure you I am not heavily involved in their private discussions at all. I sit at my desk all day and people like to come and vent their problems to me. I’m like the resident bartender or something. I have on occasion told my friend to chill out, as he has a tendency to conduct himself like a really frantic, pissed off version of Chris Farley sometimes. Usually I just try to be really positive. Mostly I offer sympathetic smiles and kit-kat bars.


Look, I would never put down another person’s spouse or mate to them. You think I’m nuts? I’m only bringing it up on a message board because I think it is an interesting topic and like others have said, I can see both sides of this issue. I’m sympathetic to both parties. As I mentioned in my OP, both of these individuals are very nice people.

This is actually not the first time I’ve seen this situation. One of my friends from elementary school became a lawyer in California and then within 2 years flat out refused to work (she had a child but she also told me she didn’t like law). She and her husband actually filed bankruptcy. I thought it was strange. I kind of went hmm…that’s a little different. If I were her husband I’d probably be pissed! Course I never said that to her. I’m not an idiot you know.

Also, one of my sisters never got a job even though she graduated from an ivy league graduate school. She has never worked, ever. The question has come up if she owes my mom a little more effort since mom did put her through the first 4 years of college. Again, just find the whole topic interesting as I do all of life’s grey areas.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

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By the way, I hope I'm not coming off as overly argumentative on this.

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Colt, I've enjoyed every one of your posts. You have made some strong points.



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Katy's description of her makes me think she really lacks self confidence and is taking the easy way out.

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Yes, she is very shy and non-assertive with everyone except, well, the husband.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

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Mostly I offer sympathetic smiles and kit-kat bars.

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Kit-kats are delicious. Further discussion of their tastiness probably merits its own thread, if not a new forum on 2+2.

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

I am blessed to have such a relationship, and that is why I am taking such a radical attitude. Perhaps I am playing with semantics, as I will do things I'd rather not; but it is no sacrifice for me.
As I think about this problem some more, I see a similarity to a parent who happily puts a child through school expecting no return but the love of the moment. For our husband was there no return for him as it was going down; then why do it? Was it all based on expected future return?
Your point of view does seem more sensible, I just wonder if reason has any place in a loving relationship (a slight exaggeration only).

Re: Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?
 

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I'm clearly not saying she owes him money. What I am saying is that he worked while she went to school. What he did by doing so was to make an investment in the couple's financial future. It's clear he viewed it that way, and I'd guess they probably discussed it.

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This wasn't my interpretation. I did miss the edit on Katy's post, so I was a bit confused. If they made an explicit agreement, that obviously changes things a bit. At the same time, I don't think such an agreement qualifies as a strict obligation on her part to go into corporate law.

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We're not talking about a basketweaving class at the local community college that she's taking for fun. We're talking about 2-3 years and a buttload of money (I think the average is like $80k!)

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Maybe it's the fact I plan on med school, but that just seems small to me. I understand that most people don't even make half that much in a year, but again this is a two-income couple (and she has a JD, she can't exactly be on the poverty line). They can't handle $80k in student loans?

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and him taking care of domestic things and not seeing her while she attends class,

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This seems particularly hollow. He wants her to be an ambitious corporate lawyer. That's part of the issue - it sounds like his desire is to see money, not her. From what I've heard 80+ hours per week is no exaggeration here.

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does homework, etc. This is similar to him taking the $80k and saying he's going to invest it in something for the couple's retirement, but instead she goes on an $80k shopping spree because that's what makes her happy.

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It sounds more like she put it into a long-term low-yield plan when he expected her to play the market.

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Also, I'm still of the belief that she's making a choice based mostly on fear. Katy's description of her makes me think she really lacks self confidence and is taking the easy way out. Perhaps if they talked this through and he showed his support for her and confidence in her, he could show her that she can do the tougher job. It might lead to a lot of good things for her beyond just career issues.

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That doesn't sound unlikely, but I don't think it changes the nature of the situation much.